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God the Father is the infinte and universal creative force the pervades the universe. It is Universal in the fact that it is infinte and nothing can be saprate from infinity. It is also universal in that it is the creative force that spawned the universe into being. The person of God the Father becomes manefest in divine principal. We experinence the personhood of God the Father in and through the expression of divinity within the universe. God the Father is the transpersonal and personal expression of universal creativity and ultimate reality.

God the Son is one with God the Father in that God the son is the manefestation of that Universal Creativity and Ultimate Reality that is God. God the Son is separate from God the Father in that God the Son is the finite expression of the infinte. God the Son is personal and transpersonal where as God the Father is transpersonal and personal. The two are one in that they are both expressions of God and are separate in that they are finite and infinite.

God the Holy Spirit is the manefestation of the unity betweeen the father and the son. It is one in that it is the expression of the father and sons unity. It is separate in that its manefestation is the trancendant spirit of father and son. The Holy Spirit is the trancendant spirit which procedes from both father and son expressing the unity of the father and the son seprately from both.

All three are one in that they are expressions of the father. All are separate in that they are expressions of the son.

Thanks

Vajrasattva

@vajrasattva,

"God the Son is separate from God the Father in that God the Son is the finite expression of the infinte."

What does this mean?

@josh0335,

The meaning of the trinity has been debated by different sects of Christianity since the organization of the Roman Catholic Church... Here's a brief run down of the events that lead up to it.

60's ad Paul converts to Christianity from Judaism, becoming the 2nd founder of Christianity. Takes Judith's place as Apostle after the crucifixion of Christ... Meanwhile, Simon Peter founds the first church of Rome and writes the gospel of Matthew. Chapter 16, verse 19 from the gospel of Matthew serves as the foundation of Roman Catholicism. Both are killed during the reign of Emperor Nero, when Nero persecuted Christians living in Rome.

The period between the founding of Christianity and the reign of Constantine is a dark period for Roman Christians who are persecuted by various Emperors who rule in this time.

312-313ad Emperor Constantine defeats his rival Maxentius at the battle of Milvian Bridge. The victory prompts him to convert to Christianity (Prior to the battle he had had a "vision" which told him he would win by God's will.) After 313ad Constantine rules the empire jointly with Lycinius and establishes the edict of Milan which legalizes Christianity in the Empire.

324-325ad Lycinius disagrees with the changes Constantine has been making in the Empire and begins persecuting Christians. Constantine defeats Lycinius in battle and becomes sole ruler of Rome. At this time Constantine institutionalizes the church and begins to assimilate it into the state government, meanwhile St. Jerome translates the bible into Vulgate (The common Latin spoken by the majority of the Empire).

325ad Constantine calls the first ecumenical council of Nicaea. The council addresses the nature of the trinity and of Christ in scripture.

Now, under Orthodox Roman Catholicism (founded by the apostle Simon Peter) the nature of Christ and the trinity goes like this. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are all equally divine and as such no one is more important or powerful than any other. Jesus has some human nature to him, but both the human (material) and divine (spiritual) nature within him are seen as good. Under Orthodoxy, any belief other than that is considered heresy.

One such "Heretical" sect which was represented at Nicaea were the Arians. Under Arianism, Jesus is seen as a construct, a tool created by God to carry out God's will on earth. This means to the Arians, however, that Jesus is not divine, and is instead entirely Human in nature.

Another sect, known as Gnosticism, argued that Christ was entirely divine and had no Human nature whatsoever... And a third sect known as Dualism argues that there was a physical and spiritual world. The physical world (Earth) was evil, where as the spiritual world (Heaven) was seen as good. To the Dualists, Jesus was of the physical world, and therefor lived in sin, until he transgressed the physical world to go to heaven.

Under the Orthodox Roman Catholic Church the belief is that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all on an equal level of divinity. The physical world, as well as the spiritual world, are good since both were created by God. And Jesus' human and divine nature, make up equal parts of him, and do not set him apart from the rest of the trinity.

Modern sects of Christianity base their beliefs on Orthodoxy, Arianism, Gnosticism, and Dualism. Which you believe is up to you, and the true nature of the Trinity is up to debate. But if the true nature of the Trinity is intended to be the ideas of the original Apostles, I believe Orthodoxy would be true.

---------- Post added 10-09-2009 at 01:05 PM ----------

josh0335;96265 wrote:

"God the Son is separate from God the Father in that God the Son is the finite expression of the infinte."

What does this mean?

I believe this means that, even though God the Son is equally as divine as God the Father, God the Son is the human representation of the Father and as such only represents a small portion of the infinite power that God the Father represents (IE: The son is only a small piece of the whole and infinite essence that is the Father). This could imply that while Jesus is alive and human his power and divinity are both limited until his death when he becomes (or returns) to God the Father.

@Rubix Cube,

As is inevitable in discussing Christianity, there's confusion and debate. A couple things: Paul isn't usually thought of as the 12th apostle replacing Judas, that was Matthias. Paul was called the Apostle to the Nations.. or to the Gentiles. Gnosticism wasn't really one sect, but more a general term for a bunch of Christian sects that have similarities.

One thing that's notable about the trinity is that it has God always being a crowd... so he never gets lonely.:rolleyes:

@vajrasattva,

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

God the Father is the infinte and universal creative force the pervades the universe. It is Universal in the fact that it is infinte and nothing can be saprate from infinity. It is also universal in that it is the creative force that spawned the universe into being. The person of God the Father becomes manefest in divine principal. We experinence the personhood of God the Father in and through the expression of divinity within the universe. God the Father is the transpersonal and personal expression of universal creativity and ultimate reality.

God the Son is one with God the Father in that God the son is the manefestation of that Universal Creativity and Ultimate Reality that is God. God the Son is separate from God the Father in that God the Son is the finite expression of the infinte. God the Son is personal and transpersonal where as God the Father is transpersonal and personal. The two are one in that they are both expressions of God and are separate in that they are finite and infinite.

God the Holy Spirit is the manefestation of the unity betweeen the father and the son. It is one in that it is the expression of the father and sons unity. It is separate in that its manefestation is the trancendant spirit of father and son. The Holy Spirit is the trancendant spirit which procedes from both father and son expressing the unity of the father and the son seprately from both.

All three are one in that they are expressions of the father. All are separate in that they are expressions of the son.

Thanks

Vajrasattva

Three Gods lite, Three Gods lite
They all ran after the stars at night
who gave up their shine to the morning bright
Have you ever thanked God that you had your sight
for three Gods lite...

@vajrasattva,

Hello Vaj.

From a man in that Metro-complex, ha: if I might offer a little different take, if you don't mind as I a give my thoughts and ask that you clarify a few of yours, thanks.

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

God the Father is the infinte and universal creative force the pervades the universe.

Like the "body" of the universe, right? Complete.

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

It is Universal in the fact that it is infinte and nothing can be separate from infinity. It is also universal in that it is the creative force that spawned the universe into being.

Can we say that? "Into being"? To assume a beginning, would mean there has to be an end. The word "infinity" contradicts that, doesn't it?

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

The person of God the Father becomes manefest in divine principal.

If you don't mind, let's observe that statement. "Person of God the Father" and it's "singularity" as we observe ourselves and that body as we observe two bodies; one of man and one of woman. We have within us "man and woman" we call hormones (whore-moans), testosterone (test-of-steroids-for-the-one) and estrogen (extra-genesis). We are both made of he "same stuff". So to assume or take of granted god is the father can lead to a "bias". They are equal but different and why they attract to offer balance to the "one". They are different in appearances only and to understand that one would have to "be god", and we are not that in it's entirety. In that we try we create an "imbalance" such as man assuming his autonomy of god "over" woman and that imbalance that would cause the heavens and the earth "not to agree" such it was once written to "love, honor and Obey".

Now let's observe that body in "conflict". Now we can only observe from our view point, and what that "bias" has created for we too, are creators, are we not? After all we are of that body that is the universe or that god. Those equal parts of us that are male and female are representing that imbalance as we observe men more like women and women more like men. Whew! Now from a distance everything is "in balance", but we cannot see the entire picture but strive to live in the chaos of it. Justin knows exactly what I am talking about as it was he who help me tie a loose end together. Justin remember, the 100 monkeys? Man, was that a big loose end. Much more than you can possibly realize in all it's representations as it explains the distribution of the weight (gravity) we carry as we unknowingly suffer to maintain that balance of the one. We "talk" equality, but to it's deeper meaning we don't have a clue,................yet and what that would mean. But wow, only If................?

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

We experience the personhood of God the Father in and through the expression of divinity within the universe. God the Father is the transpersonal and personal expression of universal creativity and ultimate reality.

Pardon me, but no "we" don't. It is "man's interpretation, that has got us so screwed up in his "singular, testy thinking" and all that is extra woman offers we in our supreme ignorance of her dual role as we command others to "obey" us, the "stronger" of the two. How so mighty we are.......................not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!; to assume such power,

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

God the Son is one with God the Father in that God the son is the manefestation of that Universal Creativity and Ultimate Reality that is God. God the Son is separate from God the Father in that God the Son is the finite expression of the infinte.

You would...............think, huh? See what I mean, about "bias". A tilt without a lilt why so much milk is spilt and misses the mouth for which it was built.

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

God the Son is personal and transpersonal where as God the Father is transpersonal and personal. The two are one in that they are both expressions of God and are separate in that they are finite and infinite.

Hopefully you will be seeing "other-wise" a little more now.

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

God the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of the unity between the father and the son.

Yes, but man should not take it too personally. There is "another" you have totally left out of your dissertation. Speaking of "just desserts".

vajrasattva;96047 wrote:

It is one in that it is the expression of the father and sons unity. It is separate in that its manifestation is the trancendant spirit of father and son. The Holy Spirit is the transcendent spirit which proceeds (you mean like "profits/prophets" it can be confusing) from both father and son expressing the unity of the father and the son separately from both. All three are one in that they are expressions of the father. All are separate in that they are expressions of the son.

See above.

Thank you Vaj for your offering to this forum. I hoped what I have offered to you aids in your thoughts as yours have helped me. After all, that is what life is about as we communicate with each other. Thanks Justin for setting that table. :bigsmile:

William

@vajrasattva,

When i say the finite expression of the infinite its meant in the same way as when you point out that the sun and the light bulb are different. But they are both one in that they give light. The christ is the same as the father and behaves the same as the infinite father but he is finite.

The universal and creative force is the energy that allows the physical, mental, and "spiritual world to exist at all". Qi if you will. The universal and supramundane Qi.

When I say into being I mean the change from potenitiality to actuality. So there is no begining (or end for that matter) as there is no change in the fact that potential energy and kinetic energy are still energy. Begining and end are matters of finite perception not actuality. Just as Potential and kinetic energy are both energy. Energy has no begining or end, and Potential energy moves to kinetic and then back to potential without a change in the fact that it is energy.

When the term god the father came about it was still a patriarchal society. And there is a woman in the original trinity Sophia the wisdom aspect. She was the holy spirit. And I used no gender descriminations in the desctription of the holy spirit. God is the creative force and it is beyond gender. We percive it to be a person out of utility as a man due to history.

The personhood of god the father is an "interpretation" of the actuality of god and it does come from ignorance. It is a utilitarian concept designed to relieve suffering and develop insight not the actual state of god. One free of ignorance in a world made only of ignorance must use ignorance to free the ignorant because there is only ignorance. Hence the need for utility in the spiritual realm.

William your thoughts helped alot it made me refine my own a great deal. I hope my clairifications were adiquit if not then fire away.

Thanks

Vajrasattva

@vajrasattva,

Arjuna;96624 wrote:

Gnosticism wasn't really one sect, but more a general term for a bunch of Christian sects that have similarities.

Not really. Gnosticism, as a category of Christian thought, has been criticized by many scholars because of the immense differences in Gnostic sects - one group proclaims strict dualism, another strict monism and so on. The real trend running through them is that they are rejected and persecuted by mainstream Christianity after Constantine's conversion.

But you're absolutely right about Gnosticism being many different sects.

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;96624 wrote:

Gnosticism wasn't really one sect, but more a general term for a bunch of Christian sects that have similarities.

Actually at the time of the Ecumenical council of Nicaea Gnosticism was an idea held by a relatively small number of Christians, you have to remember that during the time of Constantine Christianity was not the religious power house that it is considered today. So yes, while in the future the term Gnosticism was used to describe multiple sects, at the time of Constantine there was only one group calling themselves Gnostic, and they were subsequently the only group representing Gnosticism at the first Ecumenical council.
As I had said before, and Didymos picked this up as well, Gnosticism was considered "Heretical" by the Orthodox Church and as such was persecuted. This persecution would inevitably cause breaks within the original sect splitting it up into many (Both because of disagreements over the belief itself, and to help avoid persecution).

@Rubix Cube,

No sir, there was not one Gnostic group at the time - Valentians, Notzrim, Mandaeism, Manicheans, and so many more.

Again, Gnosticism is not an accurate term to use. It applies to far too many groups of immensely different beliefs. Some Gnostic groups even predate the birth of Christ. It's tough to say where Gnosticism ends and begins because of this lack of clear definitions; also, many Christians held what we would call Gnostic beliefs - Gnostic like views were not a small fringe group in the early Christian community. We do not have clear cut numbers, but we do know that Gnostic ideas were common throughout the Christian world and kept a strong voice in public discussion until later repression.

@josh0335,

God the son is the finite expression of God the father because God the son is the manifestation of the God the father in human form. Why manifest in human form? Because we can relate to it and understand it but at the same time He is the perfect human being that we can never be but we attempt flawlessness like Him only to fail so that by failing we shall fall in the mud of sin to be made clean and lifted up by the hands that made us.

@Sapiens Fossor,

Sapiens Fossor;104185 wrote:

God the son is the finite expression of God the father because God the son is the manifestation of the God the father in human form. Why manifest in human form? Because we can relate to it and understand it but at the same time He is the perfect human being that we can never be but we attempt flawlessness like Him only to fail so that by failing we shall fall in the mud of sin to be made clean and lifted up by the hands that made us.

Not really... Jesus is part of a tradition in Judaism of people without sin who suffer as though sinners, like Job... And Job and Jesus are not only human, but also the playthings of God (the father), so they can hardly be the manifestation of God almighty...The transition of Christians to Jesus as God represents a revolution in thinking, but also in theology... Jesus taught a psychological facet to sin, but also offered an informal approach to God... Nothing as formal as the old testament Jewish approach to religion can be imagined from our perspective... All that formality did was act as a conduit for the wealth of Judea into Jeruselem where it lay like a golden egg in the eyes of Rome...

@Fido,

Human beings were created in a trinity(man,woman,child) into a trinitarian world(be, do, have) and now continue starting, changing and stopping each activity they do. It's always a beginning, middle and an end to each action, and we're trapped in the past, present and the future. So you would think that a "Holy Trinity" would definitly be appropriatae to fit with our world.

GOD the Creator, the Father, created this physical world of elements, and lifeforms. When we mentally concieve of thoughts about this perspective we are in the "Father Perspective."

The SON perspective is experienced when we view our lives as part of history, whether our own personal 70 odd years in the world or Civilizations 7000 years. The historical perspective often occupies a third of our mental conceptions.

The HOLY SPIRT can only be attained after the original physical creature has gone through and experienced a good 40 years of his life on earth. The Sun in Genesis is created on the 4th day. Jesus christ the son arrrived on earth exactly 39 centuries after Adam in 4000BC. His vision resurected to us after 4 millenniums. Anyway, sorry for being so words. but theres a lot to the HOLY TRINITY! dan b

@vajrasattva,

Sorry; everything is the monad... Even children come out of the natural union of men and women...Consider that atrocious humanity grew out dioecious humanity... It is a measure of our complexity, but that should not limit our ability to be one...Three may seem like the magic number, but really it is -enough, which is represented by the same sign as infinity...Two is enough, and less than that is not enough...

@vajrasattva,

The trinity (father,son, holy ghost or spirit) is understood to be mystery in Eastern Orthodox. It is not to be explained logically or scientifically. It is merely the main ways in which god (unity) is experienced by man in this world.

If that does not help the next best explanatory metaphor I have encountered in the gas,liquid, solid forms of various physical substances. Water can be experienced as steam, water or ice but it remains water in its most essential substance.

The official doctrine of the trinity was only adopted in 325 at the council of Nicea. The world trinity and the concept trinity does not appear in scripture and appears to have slowly developed in Early Chrisitian practice.

@prothero,

The Protestant 66 book bible was only cannonised about 500 years ago but it is the finished completion of God's holy word. The original Hebrew bible called the Masoretic Text contains 39 books. They have always been traditionaly divided under the three colomn headings of The Law, the Prophets, and the Writtings.

Well, lo and behold, our new 66 book protestant bible also fits these three ancient catagories. And if you study the history of Bibles you can see that it would have been impossible for the later germans and English to have planned that their protestant bible connon would fit the ancient hebrew one. But look! It divides perfectly under the same headings and at the same time shows the Holy Trinity of "physical, e-motional, and mental.(father,son,holy spirit)

When we put the first 22 books of the protestant bibles under the first colomn we have first 5 books called the Pentatuch. Then there are 12 books, and then the 5 books called Wisdom Literature.

When we put the next 22 books under the colomn heading called The Prophets all of the names of the 22 books are prophets names. This colomn begins with the Prophet Isaiah, Jeremiah.........and all the way and including the new testament Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. This second colomn is all a list of names. Because this is "the Son." colomn. It also begins with 5 books of the Major Prophets , then the 12 minor prophets and then 5 new testament books. So it matches numericalythe first colomn called the Pentatuch.

The third colomn of 22 books are under the heading of writtings. Well they are all writtings. The epistle to the Romans is the first of the epistles and letters that continue right through this colomn until Revelation, which also is a writting.

It's been difficult to explain this but there is plenty more to the numeric and subject schemes dividing the 66 book Bible into three catagories that much resemble the Fathe, the Son and the Holy Spirit. dan b

@dan b,

Dan b.;

What you are talking about is form, and Jesus, as far as I could tell was informal in his relationship with God...He was not putting the law, or the temple forward as the only path to God, and he was holding in comtempt those people who made a show of their devotion... Depending upon how one looks at it from the gospels, Jesus' attack on the money interest of the Temple was either his first or last public act... We could do the same today if we were not so hooked on the form of our religion, which, if Jesus and the other prophets did not attack, they gave short shrift to...

Jesus made a parable of the lost sheep... Jesus is often prtrayed holding a lamb... There is an underlying significance to the portrait... Often, lambs are born with an adventurous spirit, and set off to see the great world on their own... When the shepard finds such a lamb, he smashes his foot with a rock so he cannot travel far, and often needs to be carried... The churches have always broken the feet of their best, because they prize the power over others that their form gives to them...People could see long before Luther or Calvin that the church was a business of money and power... There were many protesters, and reformers who died by flames or with lives wasted for nothing...Yet; protestantism was all about money too...Each chountry had their own capital and economy to protect that did not justify money sent to Rome...Not one of them defended the right of God to our undivided attention so much as the right of property, and all defended the right of every man to what profit he could lay aside on the misery of others...I catholicism was ungodly, Protestantism has been inhuman.. Formal religions are not the answer because the form gets between mankind and their God...

Trinity is such a form that ties back the old God with the new God, but the fact is that it has a political significance far beyond the obvious one...In the East the Trinity supported the government as head of the church...The Emperor, the Czar and every potentate in between was the head of their branch of Christianity...In the West, the church made itself head of all the kings in time, about a thousand years ago, and had an indelible influence on our laws and governments since...Don't get hung up on the form of religion... If you believe in God, find out for your self what God was saying, through Jesus, in the parables, or in any fashion you may... You do not save your soul following a form, and your wealth given to those who control the form only endangers their salvation...You do not need a church to do the work of God, and as this health care bill shows, the churches have no interest in healing the sick (unless they can do it in church or on television), but every interest in denying political power to the people...

@Fido,

I think that the Trinity is Holy because it is personafied throughout all aspects of the world and man. It is found in all aspects. And at the end it is also found in the historical. History divided into three periods of 2000 years just as the Holy Bible divides today.

PHYSICAL................EMOTIONAL....................MENTAL

earth.......................water.............................air

solid........................liquid.............................. gas

passive....................active............................resusltant

material...................activity..........................thought

be.............................do................................have

start........................change...........................stop

existence.................activity..........................thought

Mankind's consciusness is limited to these three perspectives and is therefore restricted to act in an already preset conditioned and reactionary pattern on each level. Every physical action, emotional feeling or mental thought is the result and reaction to the previous circumstances and situation directly preceeding before it. Nothing can occur or happen in this physical world, in our human feelings or in our mind of thoughts that is original and unaffected. Every activity or change in either of these three dimensions is but an imperative reaction to a previously unbalanced dituation and is therefore controlled and bound by physical, psycological and logical law. Life and consciousness in our human form can therefoe be seen entirerly contained in a trinitarian viewpoint.

Now this therefor also applies into the world of animal and human natures. In this world we can find three catagories of animal-type conscousness;

1. Wild Beasts

2. Domesticated Animals

3. Consciuious Human Beings

These three catagories of animal life on our planet are found to live under three distinct types of governments.

1. Nature's survival of the fittest

2. Domestic Law of justice

3. Human Sentiment

Therefore each of these three laws are based upon;

1. strength and violence

2. rules and agreements

3. Consciousness and understanding

These schemes go on quite indefinily but I've talked too much already.danb

@vajrasattva,

If I may point out one little flaw in you triads, it would be that a fouth state of matter exists, called plasma...The closer matter moves to the speed of light, the more it resembles light...

@Fido,

Theres two points of view we can take here. How we as mankind in our little bodies and humanly contained minds see things, and how things really are. An example is most people see the rainbow as the six colors that when joined together form an intertwined color wheel. That is Purple, blue, green, yellow , orange red. Thats the traditionals peoples view. But science says that there is also an indigo color!
So if we "search the scriptures" as it says and begin to find a pattern following the traditional peoples perspective of things, then it's still interesting. Would't god have expected us to see as feeble amimal beings that we are? Is reallity what really is or what we really believe is? dan b

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