How do Christians possibly rationalize these things?

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Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 11:02 am
[CENTER]Ritual Human and Animal Sacrifice[/CENTER]
God sends himself to die for himself to allow himself to change a rule he created himself. (Jesus, New Testament)
Abraham preparing to sacrifice his son to God (Genesis 22:1-18)
Kill first-born humans and animals (Exodus 13:2)
More human sacrifice (Leviticus 27:28-29)
Jephthah Burns His Daughter (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)
God Commands Burning Humans (Joshua 7:15 NLT)
Josiah and Human Sacrifice (1 Kings 13:1-2 NLT) (2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT)
Human Sacrifice (Wisdom 3:5-7 NAB The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible.)
Child Sacrifice (Wisdom 14:21-23 RSV The Book of The Wisdom of Solomon is mostly in Catholic versions of the Bible. This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.)
Humans are Fuel for Fire (Ezekiel 21:33-37 NAB)
Burn Nonbelievers (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
[CENTER]Rape[/CENTER]
Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)
David's Punishment - Polygamy, Rape, Baby Killing, and God's "Forgiveness" (2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)
Rape of Female Captives (Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)
Rape and the Spoils of War (Judges 5:30 NAB)
Sex Slaves (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
God Assists Rape and Plunder (Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)
[CENTER]Slavery[/CENTER]
Slaves are clearly property to be bought and sold like livestock (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
How Hebrew slaves are to be treated (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
It is moral to sell your own daughter as a sex slave (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
You can beat both male and female slaves with a rod so hard that as long as they don't die right away you are cleared of any wrong doing (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slavery is still approved of in the New Testament (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
Beating slaves who didn't know they did any wrong (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
[CENTER]Murder[/CENTER]
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT) (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
Kill Sons of Sinners (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women (Jeremiah 51:20-26) (Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
More of Samson's Murders (The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
The Angel of Death (Exodus 23:23 NAB)
Destruction of Ai (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)
Killing at Jericho (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)
God Kills an Extended Family (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)
Mass Murder (Judges 20:48 NAB)
The Angel of Death (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)
Kill Your Neighbors (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)
Kill the Family of Sinners (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster's Bible)
Kill Followers of Other Religions (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)
Murder (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)
Kill All of Babylon (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)
Micah Kills a Whole Town (Judges 18:27-29 NLT) (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 01:14 pm
@Mephistopheles phil,
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Well, that pretty much sums it up right there.

I honestly can't stop laughing.
 
Mephistopheles phil
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 01:22 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Kill Brats (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

Well, that pretty much sums it up right there.

I honestly can't stop laughing.


Actually I think the funniest thing is something I forgot to add:

God sends himself to die for himself to allow himself to change a rule he created himself. (Jesus, New Testament)
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:25 pm
@Mephistopheles phil,
First, we try to avoid the trap of literal interpretation of figurative and allegorical language.

Also, not all Christians accept the same Bible. Some of us even reject literature that is found in all Bibles, and still some promote the use of scripture which did not make the canon.
 
Mephistopheles phil
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:43 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
First, we try to avoid the trap of literal interpretation of figurative and allegorical language.

Also, not all Christians accept the same Bible. Some of us even reject literature that is found in all Bibles, and still some promote the use of scripture which did not make the canon.


Pardon me but I do not believe you speak for most Christians. Most Christians in America belong to churches and church-affiliations which preach literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm aware not all Christians are literalists; my good friend Craig is a non-literal Christian.

So really you aren't being helpful. I'm asking a question as to how most American Christians, being literalists, can possibly justify these things. If you want to say something like "I don't take it literally, so I interpret it thus" or "I don't accept that part of the Bible" then say so please.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:50 pm
@Mephistopheles phil,
Quote:
Pardon me but I do not believe you speak for most Christians. Most Christians in America belong to churches and church-affiliations which preach literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm aware not all Christians are literalists; my good friend Craig is a non-literal Christian.


I do not claim to speak for most Christians.

Good for your friend.

Quote:
So really you aren't being helpful. I'm asking a question as to how most American Christians, being literalists, can possibly justify these things. If you want to say something like "I don't take it literally, so I interpret it thus" or "I don't accept that part of the Bible" then say so please.


Pardon me, but you did not give this sort of qualification to your question in previous posts.

If you want fundamentalist Christians to justify themselves, good luck. I think even serious attempts to justify their beliefs are against their beliefs.

Myself, I do not take the literature literally, nor do I accept all canon, and I accept some extra-canonical literature for my personal scripture. I also have no problem looking to other faith traditions for spiritual guidance. I am a Christian in that I find value in teachings attributed to Jesus. Some teachings attributed to him I think to be forgeries and nasty attempts to rule over the masses. I am even less attached to Old Testament literature, though, I can read through the stories and see the allegorical meaning and appreciate the stories for their content.
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:51 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
First, we try to avoid the trap of literal interpretation of figurative and allegorical language.

Also, not all Christians accept the same Bible. Some of us even reject literature that is found in all Bibles, and still some promote the use of scripture which did not make the canon.



Thomas,

I agree about literal interpretation for the most part, but, I doubt these entries where ever meant to be taken metaphorically or allegorically, as embarrassing as that might be.
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:52 pm
@Mephistopheles phil,
Mephistopheles wrote:
Pardon me but I do not believe you speak for most Christians.


Well I'm the one called "most christians" (I have the certificate that says so) and I gave Didymos the go ahead to give that statement to "every christians," my unpaid intern who gets me coffee two times a day.

I agree with Didymos on this one, Christians possess relativistic interpretations of the bible. And no one really takes the bible seriously in a fact sense. Even within the same sect.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:58 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
Quote:
I agree about literal interpretation for the most part, but, I doubt these entries where ever meant to be taken metaphorically, as embarrassing as that might be.


Depends on which entry you are speaking of. Some of the OT is simply history of the Jewish people, and therefore, quite literal - though, many of those stories also manage to slip allegory in as well much like Plato gives us accounts of Socrates' last days, but the accounts are full of philosophical discourse and significance.

When we look at books like Genesis, and the various teachings of the prophets, it seems pretty clear to me that taking the language literal is the first step to serious error in understanding the literature. But if you had any specifics about this, I'd love to hear.
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 04:59 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
:)Surprize surprize no one is accountable, the perks of belonging to a committee which is not accountable either---what a revolting development!!!:p Keys to the psych ward anyone.Wink
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:02 pm
@boagie,
Quote:
Surprize surprize no one is accountable, the perks of belonging to a committee which is not accountable either---what a revolting development!!!


What are you talking about?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:13 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon wrote:
Well I'm the one called "most christians" (I have the certificate that says so) and I gave Didymos the go ahead to give that statement to "every christians," my unpaid intern who gets me coffee two times a day.

I agree with Didymos on this one, Christians possess relativistic interpretations of the bible. And no one really takes the bible seriously in a fact sense. Even within the same sect.


I'm sorry, but that's not necessarily true

A denomination I'm very familiar with (Assembly of God) takes much of the Bible literally. I remember as a child they would take many of these Bible stories, not as metaphoric parables, but rather as truth. In fact, I remember one Bible lesson as a child that struck fear in me - it involved the death of the newborns (I forget which part of the Bible this is located), and the moral of the lesson revolved around the idea that the prospect of disobeying this God could lead to my life being taken and me going to hell.

So, I'm sure there are some denominations that don't take the book literally, but I'm more than sure there are those that do.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:18 pm
@Zetherin,
Quote:
So, I'm sure there are some denominations that don't take the book literally, but I'm more than sure there are those that do.


Some denominations have stated opinions of the literature, you are right about that. But stated opinions do not exert total mind control over parishioners. We should expect some difference among members of any given church regarding beliefs.

Of course, many people do take the Bible, the entire text, literally.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:19 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Of course, many people do take the Bible, the entire text, literally.


And so, the question is: How do they rationalize all of these horrible acts, then?
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:28 pm
@Zetherin,
How do fundamentalists rationalize their beliefs?

I guess I could try to explain their 'logic' as best as I understand. But I do not think such an attempt would be germane - many of them openly reject rational discourse regarding religion.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 05:50 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
How do fundamentalists rationalize their beliefs?

I guess I could try to explain their 'logic' as best as I understand. But I do not think such an attempt would be germane - many of them openly reject rational discourse regarding religion.


I'm not even talking about rational discourse in a philosophic sense. I'm talking about a contradiction of the teachings!

I thought the concept of such religion was to love one another, treat others as you would want to be treated, kindness, no? Commandment #6 states "Thou shalt not murder (variations abound, yes, but the point still stands). However, if we take the Bible literally, we have God murdering people left and right, and even the acceptance of some humans murdering by God himself! I mean, you can obviously see the glaring contradictions of which I'm speaking - the list could go on. So, if taking this book literally, how then do these Christians practice a religion that outwardly supports all of these horrific acts? Many of the stories almost imply that we should murder those that we find as a threat.

Hell, even #9 on the Satanic Rules of Earth states: "Do not harm little children" (and yes, the pun was deliberate). How ironic is that? And #11 on the Satanic Rules of Earth states: " When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him". Sounds like God took a few lessons off of Satan, no? Honestly, having read alot of the Bible, and the satanic statements, rules of the earth, and many other satanic commandments, it seems as if being satanic is actually more logical and even generally kinder! And so, when I see a literal Christian regard the Church of Satan as evil, without even knowing much about the actual beliefs, it's disheartening to say the least.

Needless to say, if a so called 'literal' Christian actually tried to live a life that reflected the Bible, the person would find their new home to be a nearby state penitentiary, ironically as a result of the laws of a country that is supposedly God-born!

I love it!
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 06:00 pm
@Zetherin,
Quote:
Commandment #6 states "Thou shalt not murder (variations abound, yes, but the point still stands). However, if we take the Bible literally, we have God murdering people left and right, and even the acceptance of some humans murdering by God himself! I mean, you can obviously see the glaring contradictions of which I'm speaking - the list could go on. So, if taking this book literally, how then do these Christians rationalize all of this horrific acts that take place?


Not sure why this is contradictory, does it ever say in any literature that GOD has to follow His/her/its own commandments?
In many spiritual traditions God/S are the Judges of humanity. Therefore s/he or her direct emmisary cannot murder, it would be called execution, or maybe even controlling collateral damage.

Also considering "contradition" in the concept of a "God's Plan" if there is one, any plan would follow a duration there cannot be contradition to a "perfect" plan. If the plan is to make a rule split yourself into three and then remake a rule at a certain point, that is the plan. It all works within the realm of its own logic. What is being discussed, however as pointed out in all the other incarnations of this same discussion is that some people are using a "logic" not suited for deconstructing a rivaling logic.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 06:06 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead wrote:
Not sure why this is contradictory, does it ever say in any literature that GOD has to follow His/her/its own commandments?
In many spiritual traditions God/S are the Judges of humanity. Therefore s/he or her direct emmisary cannot murder, it would be called execution, or maybe even controlling collateral damage.

Also considering "contradition" in the concept of a "God's Plan" if there is one, any plan would follow a duration there cannot be contradition to a "perfect" plan. If the plan is to make a rule split yourself into three and then remake a rule at a certain point, that is the plan. It all works within the realm of its own logic. What is being discussed, however as pointed out in all the other incarnations of this same discussion is that some people are using a "logic" not suited for deconstructing a rivaling logic.


Even if we don't address that God has to follow his own commandments, he still, in some cases, supports the murders taken place by a human. So, if the commandment is "Thou shalt not kill", it is contradictory. Why don't we all go around killing people and just say it's 'God's will'? Yeah, it's just silly to me.

You're more than likely right we are using a logic here that is not suited for deconstructing a rivaling logic, and I would equally make the same argument that we shouldn't use this same logic to even believe in this very rivaling logic! In other words, we can't say that the logic we are using to DECONSTRUCT all of this can be used to SUPPORT the very same thing. That would be a fatal flaw. No, if we don't use this logic to deconstruct then we sure as hell shouldn't be using the same logic to believe! If you disagree, however, then I don't see how you can say I can't use this same logic.
 
boagie
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 06:07 pm
@GoshisDead,
It is a seriously schizophrenic text!Wink
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 20 Jun, 2008 06:14 pm
@GoshisDead,
Contradictions abound in the Bible - regardless of which Bible you chose.

In Mathew and Luke, John the Baptist is Elijah reincarnated. However, in the Gospel of John, John the Baptist directly contradicts the words of Jesus (who says John is Elijah) by denying that he is Elijah and instead quotes Isaiah when answering questions about his identity.
 
 

 
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