Can we know that something doesn't exist?

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Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:39 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134736 wrote:
I think it depends on the belief. Some beliefs may require more justification than others.


Why do some beliefs require more justification than others? I'm interested in your theory but I'd like it in bigger pieces.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:43 pm
@Night Ripper,
a informal answer might be because that some beliefs are intuitive and others are composed...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:57 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134765 wrote:
Why do some beliefs require more justification than others? I'm interested in your theory but I'd like it in bigger pieces.


Well, for example, the belief that X murdered Y requires the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt". But the belief that the broker stole the money requires only the standard of "the preponderance of evidence". The first has more serious consequences than the second.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:15 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134765 wrote:
Why do some beliefs require more justification than others? I'm interested in your theory but I'd like it in bigger pieces.


Including what kennethamy says above, I think it also has to do with burden of proof. Different claims require different amounts, or types, of proof. From the example illustrated, if I believed the proposition, "Elvis is dead", I would be required to present more justification than if I claimed "Elvis is dead". This is because Elvis being dead is considered conventional knowledge. To believe otherwise would require me to present further evidence for my positive claim.

In other words, if someone believed "Elvis is dead", I think this would be justified based on conventional knowledge. But if someone believed "Elvis is alive", there would need to be further justification necessary.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:17 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;134770 wrote:
a informal answer might be because that some beliefs are intuitive and others are composed...


This is close to the money....Pure number is intuitive, or transcendental nous meeting transcendental space. Negation meeting infinity, breeding logos,including that rarefied form of logos known as number. It's all right there.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:21 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134813 wrote:
Including what kennethamy says above, I think it also has to do with burden of proof. Different claims require different amounts, or types, of proof. From the example illustrated, if I believed the proposition, "Elvis is dead", I would be required to present more justification than if I claimed "Elvis is dead". This is because Elvis being dead is considered conventional knowledge. To believe otherwise would require me to present further evidence for my positive claim.

In other words, if someone believed "Elvis is dead", I think this would be justified based on conventional knowledge. But if someone believed "Elvis is alive", there would need to be further justification necessary.


Yes, the issue is that of initial probability. People who know all about Bayes' theorem (not me) know all about that. Given all we know, the proposition that Elvis is dead is more initially probable than is the proposition that Elvis is alive. And therefore requires less proof.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:24 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134821 wrote:
Yes, the issue is that of initial probability. People who know all about Bayes' theorem (not me) know all about that. Given all we know, the proposition that Elvis is dead is more initially probable than is the proposition that Elvis is alive. And therefore requires less proof.


I did not consider the issue of probability. That does make sense.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:29 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134822 wrote:
I did not consider the issue of probability. That does make sense.


I hope so. If it doesn't, a lot of mathematicians will be very angry.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:31 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134828 wrote:
I hope so. If it doesn't, a lot of mathematicians will be very angry.


I meant in relation to justification.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:17 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134813 wrote:
Including what kennethamy says above, I think it also has to do with burden of proof. Different claims require different amounts, or types, of proof. From the example illustrated, if I believed the proposition, "Elvis is dead", I would be required to present more justification than if I claimed "Elvis is dead". This is because Elvis being dead is considered conventional knowledge. To believe otherwise would require me to present further evidence for my positive claim.


That's a weird criterion for justification, considering how wildly inaccurate conventional knowledge has been in the past. It seems to me that whether or not something is conventional depends on its popularity and not on its accuracy.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 07:39 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134948 wrote:
That's a weird criterion for justification, considering how wildly inaccurate conventional knowledge has been in the past.


I think that conventional belief has been pretty good. Why do you say that? For instance, conventional belief has it that the Sun will rise the next day. And, so it has. Water will continue to be wet, and guess what, it has. Quito is the capital of Ecuador, and it is! That's a pretty good record right there!
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:19 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134967 wrote:
I think that conventional belief has been pretty good. Why do you say that? For instance, conventional belief has it that the Sun will rise the next day. And, so it has. Water will continue to be wet, and guess what, it has. Quito is the capital of Ecuador, and it is! That's a pretty good record right there!


It was also conventional wisdom that witches cause disease, time is absolute, the Sun and planets orbit the Earth, humans are animated by a vital essence, etc...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:26 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135012 wrote:
It was also conventional wisdom that witches cause disease, time is absolute, the sun and planets orbit the Earth, humans are animated by a vital essence, etc...


True enough. Sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong, and most often, it is right. But, all in all, it does quite well. If it didn't, we would not be around to discuss it.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:30 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;135019 wrote:
Sometimes conventional wisdom is wrong, and most often, it is right.


That hasn't been demonstrated.

kennethamy;135019 wrote:
If it didn't, we would not be around to discuss it.


Are you saying that whether or not the Sun orbits the Earth is critical for our survival? If we were wrong about that then we wouldn't be here? That seems obviously false.
 
SammDickens
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:35 pm
@kennethamy,
We can only be certain that something does not exist in the universe if its existence is contradictory to the physical laws of the universe, a rock so big that it cannot be moved or cannot move, for example (?). Even then, the idea of such a thing will exist in the mind. Therefore, we cannot say that unicorns do not exist because their existence is not contradictory to the known physical laws of the universe. Unicorns may certainly exist in the universe somewhere, if not on earth. We may not even say that a unicorn has not existed on the earth at some time in the past, and certainly there is more evidence in support of their existence than in rejection of their existence.

To reject the existence of an entity, we must first have the idea of that entity in our minds, must conceive it clearly with all its properties and attributes. It must exist in the mind before it's existence in reality (in the universe) can be rejected. Therefore, in the broadest sense of the question, it is impossible for anything not to exist, if its existence may be questioned.

As for the existence of entities in the universe (or multiverse?), we must be specific with regard to the space-time location of the entity in question, unless its existence contradicts the physical laws of the universe. Otherwise, almost anything can exist somewhere as far as we may know.

Samm
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:36 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134948 wrote:
That's a weird criterion for justification, considering how wildly inaccurate conventional knowledge has been in the past. It seems to me that whether or not something is conventional depends on its popularity and not on its accuracy.


Of course we're going to be wrong about some things. We're not infallible. But it doesn't matter if we are wrong about what we thought we knew. What matters is that we were justified for believing what we thought we knew. Now, yes, there are things we did not have good reason to believe in the past, but this does not mean that overall we don't, as a society, have good reason for the things we believe. Especially in this day and age where anything and everything can be criticized via a digital outlet. I think we do a good job overall.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:37 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135022 wrote:
That hasn't been demonstrated.



Are you saying that whether or not the Sun orbits the Earth is critical for our survival? If we were wrong about that then we wouldn't be here? That seems obviously false.


No. What I said was that if conventional wisdom had not be right in the main, we would not have survived.

---------- Post added 03-02-2010 at 09:40 PM ----------

Samm;135030 wrote:
We can only be certain that something does not exist in the universe if its existence is contradictory to the physical laws of the universe, a rock so big that it cannot be moved or cannot move, for example (?). Even then, the idea of such a thing will exist in the mind. Therefore, we cannot say that unicorns do not exist because their existence is not contradictory to the known physical laws of the universe. Unicorns may certainly exist in the universe somewhere, if not on earth. We may not even say that a unicorn has not existed on the earth at some time in the past, and certainly there is more evidence in support of their existence than in rejection of their existence.

To reject the existence of an entity, we must first have the idea of that entity in our minds, must conceive it clearly with all its properties and attributes. It must exist in the mind before it's existence in reality (in the universe) can be rejected. Therefore, in the broadest sense of the question, it is impossible for anything not to exist, if its existence may be questioned.

As for the existence of entities in the universe (or multiverse?), we must be specific with regard to the space-time location of the entity in question, unless its existence contradicts the physical laws of the universe. Otherwise, almost anything can exist somewhere as far as we may know.

Samm


If unicorns exist, how would their existence be explained. How would they have evolved, and from what? What would their DNA be like?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:45 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;135036 wrote:
No. What I said was that if conventional wisdom had not be right in the main, we would not have survived.


The problem with your argument is that most conventional wisdom isn't relevant to our survival. Our conventional wisdom about which berries to eat is right for the most part and if it weren't then we wouldn't have survived. However, most of the things worth arguing about are more intellectual than that.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 08:56 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;135048 wrote:
The problem with your argument is that most conventional wisdom isn't relevant to our survival. Our conventional wisdom about which berries to eat is right for the most part and if it weren't then we wouldn't have survived. However, most of the things worth arguing about are more intellectual than that.


That may be true, but then, where does that leave your criticism of the conventional wisdom? The conventional wisdom that the Sun will rise the next day has turned out fine. So, it is not true that we can never trust it to be right. I am all in favor of the conventional wisdom being vetted by science, and corrected when necessary. But are you advocating that the CW should simply be tossed out as worthless, even before vetting? What is you view now?
 
SammDickens
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 09:09 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;135036 wrote:
If unicorns exist, how would their existence be explained. How would they have evolved, and from what? What would their DNA be like?

Since I know of no unicorns on this planet at this time, I cannot answer your question, but if we should find the remains of a unicorn, we might find some of those answers too. Even if they don't exist on Earth, there's a lot of worlds on which unicorns might exist.

Samm
 
 

 
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