Can we know that something doesn't exist?

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 07:48 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;134025 wrote:
No, it does not. From your own link:



Only those who do not understand it believe that it shows that the cat is simultaneously alive and dead.


---------- Post added 03-01-2010 at 08:50 AM ----------

 
JPbokker
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 10:58 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
You could have just as easily asked can we know that anything exists? You'd have got the same responses. Can we know anything?

Well, no, actually. You can never say "I can say with 100% certainty that 'x' does not exist. No matter how unlikely it is that unicorns do not exist, there is still some small chance that they do. It would be reasonable to go about your life and believe that unicorns don't exist, as the chances are they don't. If however, you turned on the news and heard that a unicorn was discovered in an unmapped area of South America, your opinion and belief would likely change, based on the new information that has become available to you.

As for the car that is impervious to all of our senses, and undetectable to all of our scientific equipment, again it would be impossible to prove that it does not exist, but if it is such, it is not worth worrying about. IT would be reasonable to go about your life as if it does not exist.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:36 pm
@JPbokker,
JPbokker;134625 wrote:
You could have just as easily asked can we know that anything exists? You'd have got the same responses. Can we know anything?

Well, no, actually. You can never say "I can say with 100% certainty that 'x' does not exist. No matter how unlikely it is that unicorns do not exist, there is still some small chance that they do.


But you are assuming that unless someone is certain, he does not know. Have you an argument to show that assumption is true?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:40 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134650 wrote:
But you are assuming that unless someone is certain, he does not know. Have you an argument to show that assumption is true?


The confusion between certainty and knowledge strikes again it seems.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:53 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134651 wrote:
The confusion between certainty and knowledge strikes again it seems.


If only it were that simple but I don't think that's the problem. I think some people hold to a theory of justification that requires certainty.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:54 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134657 wrote:
If only it were that simple but I don't think that's the problem. I think some people hold to a theory of justification that requires certainty.


Here is my question: What is the justification for their theory of justification? How do they know that justification requires certainty?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 12:56 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134651 wrote:
The confusion between certainty and knowledge strikes again it seems.


Yes, it is a pervasive, and, I suppose, understandable confusion. I think it stems from the fact that we do not sincerely claim to know unless we feel certain that we are right, and we confuse the conditions for claiming that we know with the conditions of knowing. They are different.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134661 wrote:
Yes, it is a pervasive, and, I suppose, understandable confusion. I think it stems from the fact that we do not sincerely claim to know unless we feel certain that we are right, and we confuse the conditions for claiming that we know with the conditions of knowing. They are different.
 
JPbokker
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:17 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134650 wrote:
But you are assuming that unless someone is certain, he does not know. Have you an argument to show that assumption is true?


No, I'm claiming that there is no such thing as certainty at all, and that we can never truly know (or truly not-know) whether anything exists (except loosely ourselves, perhaps).

All you can do believe that a certain thing is true based on the information available to you, and act accordingly.

If you look across the street and it is clear, cross the road. If you then get hit and killed by and invisible, silent car, no one would accuse you of being foolish for going about your life with a foolhardy "there are no such things as invisible silent cars" attitude. It's reasonable to act as if invisible silent cars don't exist, but it's not reasonable to say "I am certain that invisible cars do not exist".
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:20 pm
@JPbokker,
JPbokker;134674 wrote:
No, I'm claiming that there is no such thing as certainty at all, and that we can never truly know
If knowledge is JTB, then we can know that we know, and this meta-knowledge relation is infinitely recursive, which I reckon is equivalent to certainty.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:26 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134657 wrote:
If only it were that simple but I don't think that's the problem. I think some people hold to a theory of justification that requires certainty.


Think of knowing as simply a set of conditions which must be met. You must believe P, you must have justification for P, and P must be true. Certainty is a side issue. No matter how uncertain or certain you are about something, you can still know. Now, justification may increase your certainty, but it need not. You may have justification for a belief, but still be uncertain. Isn't that true?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:27 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;134658 wrote:
Here is my question: What is the justification for their theory of justification? How do they know that justification requires certainty?


Isn't the point of justification to remove doubt about a belief?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:28 pm
@JPbokker,
JPbokker;134674 wrote:
No, I'm claiming that there is no such thing as certainty at all, and that we can never truly know (or truly not-know) whether anything exists (except loosely ourselves, perhaps).

All you can do believe that a certain thing is true based on the information available to you, and act accordingly.

If you look across the street and it is clear, cross the road. If you then get hit and killed by and invisible, silent car, no one would accuse you of being foolish for going about your life with a foolhardy "there are no such things as invisible silent cars" attitude. It's reasonable to act as if invisible silent cars don't exist, but it's not reasonable to say "I am certain that invisible cars do not exist".


But, again, you are assuming that because we cannot be certain, that we cannot know. So, you assume that knowledge implies certainty. Isn't that so? I might agree with you that there is nothing we can be certain about, but that doesn't mean that I have to agree with you that there is nothing that we can know. Not if knowledge does not imply certainty. So, that is really what you have to show; that knowledge implies certainty.
 
fast
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:31 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134681 wrote:
Think of knowing as simply a set of conditions which must be met. You must believe P, you must have justification for P, and P must be true. Certainty is a side issue. No matter how uncertain or certain you are about something, you can still know. Now, justification may increase your certainty, but it need not. You may have justification for a belief, but still be uncertain. Isn't that true?


Must you say must?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:31 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;134682 wrote:
Isn't the point of justification to remove doubt about a belief?


Suppose I doubt my belief is true. May it not be true anyway?
 
JPbokker
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:32 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;134676 wrote:
If knowledge is JTB, then we can know that we know, and this meta-knowledge relation is infinitely recursive, which I reckon is equivalent to certainty.



I disagree, 0.9 reccuring does not equal 1.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:34 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;134681 wrote:
You may have justification for a belief, but still be uncertain. Isn't that true?


According to you, anything with any amount of justification, as long as it's above absolutely none at all, is "justified".

That's like saying that anything that isn't perfectly round is "flattened".
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:35 pm
@JPbokker,
JPbokker;134688 wrote:
0.9 reccuring does not equal 1.
Yes, it does!
.
.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:36 pm
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;134676 wrote:
If knowledge is JTB, then we can know that we know, and this meta-knowledge relation is infinitely recursive, which I reckon is equivalent to certainty.


Even if we can be certain, how does it follow that in order to know we have to be certain?
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 01:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;134692 wrote:
Even if we can be certain, how does it follow that in order to know we have to be certain?
I didn't make that claim.
 
 

 
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