Truth

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Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 07:04 am
@Owen phil,
How much heat is too much is the question. "Some like it hot..."
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 07:08 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113217 wrote:
How much heat is too much is the question. "Some like it hot..."


Locke called it, "an overweening brain" too. He was talking about religious fanaticism; suicide-bomber fanaticism. Whether or not you like it, it has nothing much to do with philosophy. (Well, maybe Nietzsche, but then again, who says that's philosophy?)
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 07:15 am
@Owen phil,
It's not just Nietzsche. The Germans are often profound.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 07:17 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113221 wrote:
It's not just Nietzsche. The Germans are often profound.


Kant was. So was Leibniz. (Carnap, Wittgenstein, Schlick, Feigl).
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 08:00 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;113223 wrote:
Kant was. So was Leibniz. (Carnap, Wittgenstein, Schlick, Feigl).

And obtuse; and immoral???Why those people should be so rational and so ignorant of the emotions is an enduring question... Such people are capable of greatness, and heartless cruelty...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 08:34 am
@Fido,
Fido;113242 wrote:
And obtuse; and immoral???Why those people should be so rational and so ignorant of the emotions is an enduring question... Such people are capable of greatness, and heartless cruelty...


Kant? Leibniz? Schlick? What are you talking about?
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:15 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;113250 wrote:
Kant? Leibniz? Schlick? What are you talking about?

I am reading Schopenhaur now, and he takes the experiance of his readers in the language of philosophy for granted...I think he is making something simple very complex, and perhaps because that was his object...Same with Kant...I'd rather read the phone book... And what about Nietzsche???Compared to him at times a toilet wall is a better read, and less disturbed... All the appeals to Eastern Religion, or Western tradition does not get if for me...Galileo, though older, and an amature writer gave a better expression to his philosophy than they...I like Leibniz in his explanation of basic logic, yet his Theodicy is only recycled faith pretending to be philosophy...

All this is perhaps a prejudice on my part to formal philsophers...The idea that an original mind is improved by any formal education is wrong... The creative mind is given certain tools that if used as intended by the giver always end at the same conclusion...That does not mean that people should not learn everything, or should neglect a formal education...It is just that everyone should learn that a formal education teaches the form...

Something else...Reading Heidgger on Kant is a good way to get a sense of German as very precise language capable of expressing very complex relationships, and yet it is also possible that this capability shapes as well as it is shaped by the thoughts of philosophers...I love English but I do not think of it as a very sharp weapon...German seems very sharp...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:52 am
@Fido,
Fido;113275 wrote:
I am reading Schopenhaur now, and he takes the experiance of his readers in the language of philosophy for granted...I think he is making something simple very complex, and perhaps because that was his object...Same with Kant...I'd rather read the phone book... And what about Nietzsche???Compared to him at times a toilet wall is a better read, and less disturbed... All the appeals to Eastern Religion, or Western tradition does not get if for me...Galileo, though older, and an amature writer gave a better expression to his philosophy than they...I like Leibniz in his explanation of basic logic, yet his Theodicy is only recycled faith pretending to be philosophy...

All this is perhaps a prejudice on my part to formal philsophers...The idea that an original mind is improved by any formal education is wrong... The creative mind is given certain tools that if used as intended by the giver always end at the same conclusion...That does not mean that people should not learn everything, or should neglect a formal education...It is just that everyone should learn that a formal education teaches the form...

Something else...Reading Heidgger on Kant is a good way to get a sense of German as very precise language capable of expressing very complex relationships, and yet it is also possible that this capability shapes as well as it is shaped by the thoughts of philosophers...I love English but I do not think of it as a very sharp weapon...German seems very sharp...


Didn't you say they were obtuse and immoral? Or was that someone else?
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 03:16 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;113283 wrote:
Didn't you say they were obtuse and immoral? Or was that someone else?

Ya Obtuse and often Immoral...Nietzsche was immoral enough for all, but Kant did a pretty good Job of knocking a hole in metaphysics, which stood behind the only morality common to all of Europe...Not one of us, even I, and I would regard myself as a moralist can examine morality without having that charge leveled against us...To be moral we must accept, and to try to examine morals in some objective fashion is to not accept...It is part of the reason philosophers are so unsociable, that they cannot simply look at things as objects but must see them for their meaning, and perhaps even the meaning of their meaning...

With our forms, we abstract reality... To look at our forms as though objects in their own light is abstracting an abstraction...It is like using math to explain math, and so it is bound to seem obtuse, by which I mean: overly complicated...I don't think one can necessarily do this better than another, and perhaps German is the perfect medium because it has such a high level of accuracy of thought... But this is all opinion...I would rather have a fist fight in a slaughter house amid the guts an blood of dead brutes than to really hazzard a proof for my conclusions...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:06 pm
@Fido,
Fido;113318 wrote:
To look at our forms as though objects in their own light is abstracting an abstraction...It is like using math to explain math, and so it is bound to seem obtuse, by which I mean: overly complicated...I don't think one can necessarily do this better than another, and perhaps German is the perfect medium because it has such a high level of accuracy of thought...


Seems like what Hegel attempted. Also seems like a part of progress. But progress is relative to value. Which is another idea about ideas, abstraction about abstractions.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:16 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113408 wrote:
Seems like what Hegel attempted. Also seems like a part of progress. But progress is relative to value. Which is another idea about ideas, abstraction about abstractions.

Yes; value/meaning is a concept, but is also a moral form, and if I am using the word incorrectly by Schopenhaur then more power to me...It is easy enough to say such are only concepts, yet they go into the making of unnatural societies, so the are in one sense concept, and in another, form...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:20 pm
@Owen phil,
True, they are living forms as well.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2009 10:29 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113416 wrote:
True, they are living forms as well.

Only because they have meaning in relation to another infinite: Life...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:18 am
@Owen phil,
Life is truth. Truth is a Right Life?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:28 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113449 wrote:
Life is truth. Truth is a Right Life?


You seem to understand what you are asking. So, you'll have to answer it.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:31 am
@Owen phil,
Reason is subordinate to Life. The will-to-truth is just a piece of Life.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:37 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113456 wrote:
Reason is subordinate to Life. The will-to-truth is just a piece of Life.


There you go!...............
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2009 12:40 am
@Owen phil,
Who are your favorite characters in fiction? That would get us close to my point.....
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:11 am
@Owen phil,
The word "truth" is used in this post many times but never defined... sure he put adjectives in front of it, but that's the same problem I had in my epistemology class:

What's knowledge?
Depends on your theory of truth...

What's truth?
Depends on your theory of knowledge...

If our "truths" can't be considered eternal (which I do agree with), then what gives us the right to use such a bad word in describing them?!? How about saying "accepted truths" or something akin to "highly regarded and correlated beliefs", since our "truths" are very capable of changing with new ideas, beliefs, etc...
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 08:15 am
@Owen phil,
Owen;112673 wrote:
IMO,

Truth is that which can be shown to be the case.

Both empirical truth and logical truth apply.

Factual truth is decided by scientific methods.

Analytic truths are decided by logical methods.

Truth is relative to the system that decides it.

There is no absolute truth because there is no system of decision that is absolute.

No system of decision contains all truths.

To know is to show.

Truth exists iff there are minds.

There are no 'eternal' truths.

What we show when we prove a proposition is its truth.


...Is this TRUE ??? In what system is it not ? Very Happy
__________________________________________________________

Is there in fact a Negative Absolute answer to anything ?
...Because there is a Positive one, a RELATIVE ABSOLUTE...(Implicate Order)
Relative as a Phenomena, Absolute as a Noumena...
You cannot do the same with Negation...Negation is an Illusion...
(...stretching the boundaries, go on crucify me...:a-ok: )
 
 

 
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