Defining Reason and Rationality

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 08:46 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;112648 wrote:
Well, things are complicated. But many things are in philosophy. And we cannot ignore critical thought and be satisfied with a limited understanding (just what sort of philosophers would we be?!). Perhaps you, or someone else, should make a thread on these senses - we can't simply ignore the issue now because of the fear of complication!



This becomes a technical matter in lexicography. Sure you want to go there? (I forget the stuff-if ever I really knew it).

"It is not the world that is simple; it is philosophers". J.L. Austin
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:02 am
@Zetherin,
Sometimes a historical look is required to see how different senses are in the same family. Like the word fine. It originally meant only "skinny." But in its use to describe the quality of blades, it came to mean "high quality." So eventually we could say "fine fat boy" and it makes sense.

So we could look historically at the word rational:

"In mathematics, a ratio expresses the magnitude of quantities relative to each other rather. Specifically, the ratio of two quantities indicates how many times the first quantity is contained in the second[1] and may be expressed algebraically as their quotient.[2] Mathematically, a proportion is defined as the equality of two ratios.[3] However in common usage the word proportion is used to indicate a ratio, especially the ratio of a part to a whole." --Wiki artical on ratio

So a little boy has an encounter with a clown at his birthday party. Alarmed by it, his ability to apply rationality is activated. If he's successful, he will have understood that it's an otherwise normal person, wearing an elaborate costume. Not a creature with white skin and a big red nose.

I think rationality has to do with taking experience apart, relating the parts to each other, and it comes in response to a potential threat... as for instance a rational approach to medicine started from a need to protect the population from snake oil salesmen... greek snake oil salesmen.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:58 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;112653 wrote:
Sometimes a historical look is required to see how different senses are in the same family.


What is a "family"?
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:11 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112657 wrote:
What is a "family"?
A group of related things?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:18 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;112660 wrote:
A group of related things?


And what "things" are you talking about? If it is meanings, then meanings may be related temporally (what linguists call "diachronically") but not in the same "time slice" or "synchronically" since words change meaning in time. The etymology of a word gives you the history of the change of meanings of words, but tell you nothing about about how they are currently related. For that, you have to look at their present meanings.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 10:38 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112661 wrote:
And what "things" are you talking about? If it is meanings, then meanings may be related temporally (what linguists call "diachronically") but not in the same "time slice" or "synchronically" since words change meaning in time. The etymology of a word gives you the history of the change of meanings of a word, but tell you nothing about about how they are currently related. For that, you have to look at their present meanings.
So you see fine, as in thin, to be a different word from fine, as in high quality. The two words are spelled the same, and we can determine why they are by looking at history. I get that. So scratch the part about the word fine. They remain related in a poetic way, but we were talking about rationality.Smile

What I was getting at is how the different uses of the words reason and rationality are related. They all include rationation, and are responses to the unknown, which might be threatening.... so there tends to be a protective quality to reason... it's one of our defenses. Not that it can't find use beyond protection. I just think it originates in defensiveness. Just the way I've thought of it.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:24 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;112664 wrote:
So you see fine, as in thin, to be a different word from fine, as in high quality. The two words are spelled the same, and we can determine why they are by looking at history. I get that. So scratch the part about the word fine. They remain related in a poetic way, but we were talking about rationality.Smile

What I was getting at is how the different uses of the words reason and rationality are related. They all include rationation, and are responses to the unknown, which might be threatening.... so there tends to be a protective quality to reason... it's one of our defenses. Not that it can't find use beyond protection. I just think it originates in defensiveness. Just the way I've thought of it.


It is not what I see. Does a good dictionary have two separate entries, or just one with several meanings?

Isn't rationality just the use of reason?
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:39 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112674 wrote:
It is not what I see. Does a good dictionary have two separate entries, or just one with several meanings?

Isn't rationality just the use of reason?
Yea. Why don't we call it reasonality? I'm not sure I see your point.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:46 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;112680 wrote:
Yea. Why don't we call it reasonality? I'm not sure I see your point.


You asked how reason and rationality are related, and I answered that rationality is the use of reason. I have no idea why the use of reason is not called "reasonality". Why should it be?
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:51 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112685 wrote:
You asked how reason and rationality are related, and I answered that rationality is the use of reason. I have no idea what the use of reason is not called "reasonality". Why should it be?

Actually I guess it would reasony. Sounds too much like a word from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Adios. :bigsmile:
 
Deckard
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 04:14 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;112642 wrote:
We have to make the same distinction that dictionaries make between "senses of a term", and "meanings of a term". You will notice that dictionaries list under one meaning of a term, different senses (numbering them) and apart from that, the dictionaries will give different meanings of the term, a separate entry for each meaning. So, there will be different senses under one meaning of a term, and then there will be different senses grouped under a different meaning of the same term. Good dictionaries (The OED) give long account of how they distinguish among senses of the same meaning, and different meanings. I suppose "senses" can be called, "different shades of the same meaning". It is complicated.


All the senses of a particular entries relate back to a word. The letters arranged on the page and also the sound of the word. This is at least one thing that all the senses have in common. Just the arrangement of letter or the arrangement of phonemes and naked of all meaning. It is a physical fact: letters on the page or sound waves in the air.

(For the moment let's ignore other languages and synonyms.)

In our case the word is "Reason" (let's just set rationality aside for a bit)
This much at least we can be sure of. Now can we add a layer of meaning over the top of this.

For example can we say that all entries have a layer of meaning, a shade of meaning that relates to "having something to do with thinking." ?

Is the layer of meaning I just mentioned an example of a family resemblance a la Wittgenstein?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 04:23 pm
@Reconstructo,
Here is link to Rorty on Wittgenstein(and Heidegger -- both linguistic). It's some of the best foolosophy, I know. This is not to dodge the argument but to open a window and perhaps let some more light in. I hope some of you like this as much as I have.

Essays on Heidegger and others - Google Books

---------- Post added 12-19-2009 at 06:14 PM ----------

Hegel distinguished between discursive Understanding and Reason which was capable of seeing unity-in-difference. I just bumped into this passage by Zizek (The Ticklish Subject):

"For Hegel, Reason is not another, "higher" capacity than Understanding; what defines Understanding is the very illusion that, beyond it, there is another domain (either the ineffable Mystical or Reason) which eludes its discursive grasp. In short, to get from Understanding to Reason, one does not have to add anything, but on the contrary, to subtract something: what Hegel calls Reason is Understanding itself, bereft of the illusion that there is something Beyond it."
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 07:15 pm
@Reconstructo,
ratio and logos, which in Latin and Greek originally meant "speech," a performance that is irrational, at least on one of its constituent sides and frequently on all of them. - [From: Man and People
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 09:19 pm
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;112828 wrote:
ratio and logos, which in Latin and Greek originally meant "speech," a performance that is irrational, at least on one of its constituent sides and frequently on all of them. - [From: Man and People


A particularly silly thing to say (even for Ortega) on two counts: 1. That a word used to mean something is irrelevant to what is means at present, and, 2. That speech is occasionally irrational does not mean that speech, as such, is irrational.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 11:58 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reason is just talk/thought. There are certain ideals we are expected to manifest. The more our discourse manifests these ideals, the more "rational" it is. These ideals are listed earlier in the thread. Here's another list: consistent, sane, practical, clear, logical, decent, prudent....and many more.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 02:04 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112898 wrote:
Reason is just talk/thought. There are certain ideals we are expected to manifest. The more our discourse manifests these ideals, the more "rational" it is. These ideals are listed earlier in the thread. Here's another list: consistent, sane, practical, clear, logical, decent, prudent....and many more.



You might be surprised by how many people talk and think, but are unreasonable. Reason may be talk/thought, but it is not only talk thought. Just as playing chess is moving bits of plastic on a chess board. But it is not only moving bits of plastic on a chess board. I have warned you before not to confuse, A is B, with A is only B. Cheese is curds and whey. But cheese is not just curds and whey.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 03:35 am
@Reconstructo,
Sure, "Reason" is an ideal that I myself strive for, despite my occasional jostling of the concept. Reason is holy, in it's way. Or sacred or ideal. Whatever word you like. Perhaps one questions reason in the name of reason. Is reason a snake that eats itself tail-first? Back to the question: treason and actuality. I mean raisins and rags in the alley. Witch do weep refer?
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Sun 20 Dec, 2009 09:37 pm
@Reconstructo,
[CENTER]Reason and Rationality in Plato[/CENTER]

It's been twenty-four centuries since one of the greatest realists, Plato, asked himself what is that which we call "reason" -- , and his answer is essentially, still valid. Reason is not simply knowing. In seeing a thing, I know it in some way or I know something of it; nevertheless, I don't reason it, my knowing is not rational. Between this mere knowing or taking notice of something -- and theoretical knowledge or science Plato finds an essential difference. Science is the knowledge of something that permits us to "give reason" to that thing -. This is the most authentic and primary meaning of the ratio. When we find out the cause of a phenomenon, the proof or foundation of a proposition, we posses a rational knowledge. Reasoning is, thus, going from an object -thing or thought- to its principle. It is penetrating into the intimacy of something, discovering its most intimate being behind the manifest and apparent. In the Theaetetus, where Plato examines this matter in detail, definition is recognized as the exemplary form of the ratio. In effect, defining is decomposing a composite into its ultimate elements. These are the interior or belly of the former. When the mind analyzes something and arrives at its ultimate ingredients, it's as if it penetrated into its intimacy, as if you saw it from within. Understanding, intus-legere, consists exemplararily in this reduction of the complex and, as such, the confusing, to the simple and, as such, clear. Rigorously [speaking], rationality signifies that movement of reduction and can be made a synonym of defining.

But Plato himself stumbles, at once, onto the inevitable antinomy which reason incubates. If knowing rationally is descending or penetrating from the complex to its elements or principles, it will consist of a merely formal operation of analysis, of anatomy. Upon the mind finding the ultimate elements, it cannot follow its resolving or analyzing task, it cannot decompose any more. From which it results that, faced with the elements, the mind ceases to be rational. And one of two things [results]: either, upon not being able to continue being rational before them, it does not know them, or it knows them by an irrational means. In the first case, it will result that knowing an object would reduce it to unknowable elements, which is altogether paradoxical. In the second case, reason would remain like a narrow intermediate zone between the irrational knowledge of the compound and the no less irrational of its elements. Before these, the analysis or ratio would be determined and would only admit intuition. In reason itself we would find, thus, an abyss of irrationality.

[Translated by longknowledge Revista del Occidente, October 1924. Included in his Obras Completas, Vol. III, pp. 273-274.]
 
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 04:51 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reason is just criticism of reason. We use words to describe words. We use metaphors to destroy metaphors. The word "reason" functions religiously for some. For others, it's just a practical term meaning (under all the fog) practical.

But humans want more than the practical. Therefore the religion of reason, beyond its practical application. Reason is rhetoric. Proof is persuasion. This forum and its clashing opinions are "proof" of that. Who here doesn't claim the word "reasonable" for themselves? Perhaps a trickster here and there. "Reasonable" is like "Abracadabra." What we do is talk/write. We make our case. Another says it's crap. Yet another finds it persuasive/reasonable. Such is the reality that stares us in the face, that humans disagree. Everyone thinks they are right. The sun shines.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 23 Dec, 2009 11:01 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;113908 wrote:

. Proof is persuasion. .


Then why do some proofs not persuade? And some persuasions not prove?
 
 

 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 02/05/2025 at 06:56:29