Why I don't seek the Truth

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richrf
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 04:45 pm
Hi all,

As a life strategy I don't seek or hold Truths. I have found that Truths get me in trouble, because then I don't plan for any contingencies, it case I am wrong.

For example, during the last stock market Bull market, all of my friends went all in. Why? Because the stock market always goes up. They read it. They experienced it. They knew it! Absolutely. They thought I was crazy not getting in. Of course, they all lost half of their life savings, in some cases millions.

Now, my strategy is different. Last October I went into the market as all of my friends sold. I believed it was a good time to enter, but I thought I could be wrong. So I planned for it. As the market continued to slide into March, I continued to gradually invest, with the idea that I will make money, if and when the market reverses. I held my powder dry, and the strategy worked out very well.

I have many stories like the one above. Throughout my life, I always ask the question: "What if I am wrong". This has really worked well and kept me out of lots of deep trouble. So I always question what I believe, and am never satisfied that what I believe is True. Call it Life Learned Humility.

Rich
 
Theages
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:15 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68124 wrote:
Throughout my life, I always ask the question: "What if I am wrong". This has really worked well and kept me out of lots of deep trouble. So I always question what I believe, and am never satisfied that what I believe is True. Call it Life Learned Humility.

1.When you ask yourself that question, do you answer it? If so, how can you believe whatever you give?

2. If you've learned to question yourself, doesn't that mean that you've learned something?
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:28 pm
@Theages,
Hi there,

Theages;68128 wrote:
1.When you ask yourself that question, do you answer it? If so, how can you believe whatever you give?


I do not answer yes or no. I always answer maybe. And whatever I decide is always being re-evaluated. It is very fluid, like a skilled sailing captain on the high seas.

Quote:
2. If you've learned to question yourself, doesn't that mean that you've learned something?


Yes, and hopefully I keep questioning and learning. I enjoy flow. I have learned a lot from Tai Chi, table tennis, the Dao De Jing and Heraclitus. But I don't consider any of it True. Just a good direction for me at this time in my life.

Rich
 
Theages
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:34 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68132 wrote:

I do not answer yes or no. I always answer maybe. And whatever I decide is always being re-evaluated. It is very fluid, like a skilled sailing captain on the high seas.

You seem to have forgotten what question it is that you ask yourself. Allow me to remind you:
Quote:
Throughout my life, I always ask the question: "What if I am wrong".

It doesn't make any sense to answer this question with "Maybe". The question asks for a scenario about the future, especially one which is logically inferred from the present situation. Bearing this in mind, could you tell me how you usually answer the question that you ask yourself?



Quote:
Yes, and hopefully I keep questioning and learning. I enjoy flow. I have learned a lot from Tai Chi, table tennis, the Dao De Jing and Heraclitus. But I don't consider any of it True. Just a good direction for me at this time in my life.

You consider it a good direction to go around learning things that are false?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 05:40 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68124 wrote:
Hi all,

As a life strategy I don't seek or hold Truths. I have found that Truths get me in trouble, because then I don't plan for any contingencies, it case I am wrong.

For example, during the last stock market Bull market, all of my friends went all in. Why? Because the stock market always goes up. They read it. They experienced it. They knew it! Absolutely. They thought I was crazy not getting in. Of course, they all lost half of their life savings, in some cases millions.

Now, my strategy is different. Last October I went into the market as all of my friends sold. I believed it was a good time to enter, but I thought I could be wrong. So I planned for it. As the market continued to slide into March, I continued to gradually invest, with the idea that I will make money, if and when the market reverses. I held my powder dry, and the strategy worked out very well.

I have many stories like the one above. Throughout my life, I always ask the question: "What if I am wrong". This has really worked well and kept me out of lots of deep trouble. So I always question what I believe, and am never satisfied that what I believe is True. Call it Life Learned Humility.

Rich


Anyone might be wrong. But that does not mean that he is wrong. Suppose you believe that you have a winner in the market, but you ask yourself the question, what if I am wrong? And, as a consequence you don't invest, but it turns out that you were right all along, and you have lost the money you did not make. There are many stories like that too, of people who have been too timid to invest, and as a consequence lost money. It is just as bad to lose money by not making it when you have the chance, as to lose money any other way. After all, why might not the truth be that you ought to have invested?
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 08:38 pm
@Theages,
Theages;68133 wrote:
You seem to have forgotten what question it is that you ask yourself. Allow me to remind you:

It doesn't make any sense to answer this question with "Maybe". The question asks for a scenario about the future, especially one which is logically inferred from the present situation. Bearing this in mind, could you tell me how you usually answer the question that you ask yourself?




You consider it a good direction to go around learning things that are false?


Hi there,

I think "maybe" is a totally reasonable way to go about life. Quantum physics is all about maybe and probability. It is the way life is. Of course, if you prefer yes and no, then that is fine with me. Maybe I am right. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am partially right and partially wrong. All kinds of possibilities, and as I gain skill, I am better able to navigate through waters.

I don't learn true or false. I just learn from making mistakes, because that is the only way to learn (that I know of), and I try to have contingencies for when I make mistakes, because I know it happens. I don't assume that what I will do is True. I just assume things can happen, because the world is in constant flux, and anything can happen - and usually does. Smile

Rich

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:38 PM ----------

kennethamy;68135 wrote:
Anyone might be wrong. But that does not mean that he is wrong. Suppose you believe that you have a winner in the market, but you ask yourself the question, what if I am wrong? And, as a consequence you don't invest, but it turns out that you were right all along, and you have lost the money you did not make. There are many stories like that too, of people who have been too timid to invest, and as a consequence lost money. It is just as bad to lose money by not making it when you have the chance, as to lose money any other way. After all, why might not the truth be that you ought to have invested?


Hi there,

Things may turn out well, or it may not. My investment philosophy which has worked very well takes into account both sides. I am never so sure of myself that I go all in. I measure the situation (like a good navigator), and make the choice that I believe points me in the right direction, but still leaves me a safety valve in case I am wrong.

Rich
 
Theages
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:05 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68180 wrote:
I think "maybe" is a totally reasonable way to go about life. Quantum physics is all about maybe and probability. It is the way life is. Of course, if you prefer yes and no, then that is fine with me. Maybe I am right. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I am partially right and partially wrong. All kinds of possibilities, and as I gain skill, I am better able to navigate through waters.

If I ask you "Are you going to the store or not?" and you answer "Cloudy with a chance of showers in the afternoon," I might assume that you are insane, because your answer wouldn't have anything to do with the question I asked. Similarly, it is completely nonsensical to answer "What if I am wrong?" with "Maybe." It's not that it's a bad answer; it's literally a meaningless answer. It does not mean anything in the context of the question.
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:35 pm
@Theages,
Theages;68184 wrote:
If I ask you "Are you going to the store or not?" and you answer "Cloudy with a chance of showers in the afternoon," I might assume that you are insane, because your answer wouldn't have anything to do with the question I asked. Similarly, it is completely nonsensical to answer "What if I am wrong?" with "Maybe." It's not that it's a bad answer; it's literally a meaningless answer. It does not mean anything in the context of the question.


Hi again,

Well, as a matter of living in a world of consensus, I would answer yes. As it turns out, I may have many detours along the way (if I decide I need to pick up something), make my way to the store, but get derailed by a rain shower, or decide not to go, because I thought it was nice outside when I got there, and wanted to go for a walk. In no way do I posit anything that I say to someone else as the Truth. Circumstances change, and I try to change with them.

We all have to get along with our neighbors in life, but what I am thinking, and what I actually do, many not match verbatim with what I say. After all, I don't want people to think I am crazy. I am not that crazy. Smile

Rich
 
Justin
 
Reply Wed 10 Jun, 2009 09:46 pm
@Theages,
Caught this thread and have much to do before I'm ready to go to Virginia, so I may not respond right away.

richrf;68124 wrote:
As a life strategy I don't seek or hold Truths. I have found that Truths get me in trouble, because then I don't plan for any contingencies, it case I am wrong.

Well, everyone has a different truth and that's the truth. LOL. Seriously though, I think people are almost tricked into seeking truth outside themselves and end up following a man made truth. If there were such a thing as ultimate truth, would you consider that you and I and everyone on earth is the living truth? Truth is unique to us all, even if it's the same truth.

richrf;68124 wrote:
For example, during the last stock market Bull market, all of my friends went all in. Why? Because the stock market always goes up. They read it. They experienced it. They knew it! Absolutely. They thought I was crazy not getting in. Of course, they all lost half of their life savings, in some cases millions.

Now, my strategy is different. Last October I went into the market as all of my friends sold. I believed it was a good time to enter, but I thought I could be wrong. So I planned for it. As the market continued to slide into March, I continued to gradually invest, with the idea that I will make money, if and when the market reverses. I held my powder dry, and the strategy worked out very well.

Maybe you are attracting this good fortune. Do you give of yourself to your friends and family and do you think positive and help old ladies across the street? I tend to believe that the more we give of ourselves the more it will reflect itself back... Right? What you put in is what you'll get out, does this not apply to life?

Well, you're here with the rest of us so while you may not seek the 'Truth' of other people, you obviously have a desire to talk philosophy and open a website blog dedicated to the meaning of life. Good of you to be here.

richrf;68124 wrote:
I have many stories like the one above. Throughout my life, I always ask the question: "What if I am wrong". This has really worked well and kept me out of lots of deep trouble. So I always question what I believe, and am never satisfied that what I believe is True. Call it Life Learned Humility.

Hmm... Life could very well be the truth experience right there before our eyes. I am also like you in the sense that I won't subscribe to just any old bull$%@#, especially knowing the creativeness of the human mind.

The truth is, Truth is unique unto us all and mostly engraved in us from youth and through our ancestors. Truth varies from one person to the next, just ask a few hundred people, you'll get that many truths.

Theages;68133 wrote:
You consider it a good direction to go around learning things that are false?

Who says they are false? Discovering and learning is not a bad direction at all. What is it you are leading into? You call it false, I'm interested in what gave you that idea?

richrf;68180 wrote:
I don't learn true or false. I just learn from making mistakes, because that is the only way to learn (that I know of), and I try to have contingencies for when I make mistakes, because I know it happens. I don't assume that what I will do is True. I just assume things can happen, because the world is in constant flux, and anything can happen - and usually does. Smile

Sure, we all make mistakes and learn from them and we can also learn from each others' mistakes. However, there's nothing wrong with expecting more and expecting positive things. Setting a target, so-to-say.

richrf;68180 wrote:
Things may turn out well, or it may not. My investment philosophy which has worked very well takes into account both sides. I am never so sure of myself that I go all in. I measure the situation (like a good navigator), and make the choice that I believe points me in the right direction, but still leaves me a safety valve in case I am wrong.

Good way to learn and grow. I think that when we are ready, when the time is right, when we are balanced, and when we go within ourselves seeking silence it is only then can we truly discover truth. Let the truth shine outward through who you are and what you do in your life. I'm a believer that when the point comes where we can overcome money and ego and seek the still waters of our inner mind and the silent whisperings within nature, we will rise above all that we think we need into an understanding and a knowing... I'm not calling it truth but the results of working knowingly with creation and your fellow man in harmony and balance are positive and life changing. Smile

Best of luck to you in your path of life. Hope to see you around the forums and look forward to other responses. Hmmm... What if I'm wrong? :sarcastic:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 07:35 am
@Justin,
Justin;68197 wrote:


Well, everyone has a different truth and that's the truth. LOL. Seriously though, I think people are almost tricked into seeking truth outside themselves and end up following a man made truth. If there were such a thing as ultimate truth, would you consider that you and I and everyone on earth is the living truth? Truth is unique to us all, even if it's the same truth.




Well, people certainly do believe that different things are true. For example, about what the capital of Ecuador is. But that does not mean that there are different truths about what is the capital of Ecuador, does it? Just because people may disagree about the truth of a proposition, why should it follow that the proposition itself has "different truths". That it is raining in place, p, at time t is either true or false whatever someone may believe about it.

I don't really know what you have in mind by, "man-made" truth, although I can imagine several things you might mean by it. For instance you might mean by the phrase, as an example, that A checkmated B's king, is a "man-made truth" because chess is a human invention. But, so what? It is still either true or false that A checkmated B's king. There is nothing particularly inferior about "man-made truths".

When you say that people are "living truths" I am afraid you have lost me. Things, entities, cannot be truths. A chair cannot be a truth, nor can a person be a truth. You would have to explain to me what you could possibly mean by saying such a thing. It seems to be what philosophers call, a "category mistake". Like saying that the square root of - 1 is purple. It makes no sense. And what "truth is unique to us all" is something I find bewildering. What could that mean?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 08:00 am
@Justin,
Justin;68197 wrote:
Seriously though, I think people are almost tricked into seeking truth outside themselves and end up following a man made truth. If there were such a thing as ultimate truth, would you consider that you and I and everyone on earth is the living truth?


I myself wouldn't call that a truth, though you might. But I have certainly observed lots of what you describe. I think people use this search for truth as a means to congregate as groups around a leader. Being part of a group is very comforting, and I have observe that people do this all of the time.

Quote:
Truth is unique to us all, even if it's the same truth.
I would say that we all see things differently, even if it appears to be the same. The reason being is that we all occupy our own unique space/time in the universe, and therefore have our own individual perspective - what I call Individual Consciousness.


Quote:
What you put in is what you'll get out, does this not apply to life?
The way I look at things, is that there is an Individual Consciousness that is learning, and some things we learn very well (we call this luck), and other things are yet to learn, and it is the second part that keeps us interested in Life. Smile

Quote:
Who says they are false? Discovering and learning is not a bad direction at all. What is it you are leading into? You call it false, I'm interested in what gave you that idea?
It is my own philosophy which I developed over many years. I delve into many different types of activities. I observe what I am doing and what others are doing. And a create a model in my mind that makes sense to me. Lots of my thoughts are influenced by Itzhak Bentov, and other ancient cultures. Not just Greece, but Eastern philosophies, American Indian, Polynesian, etc. I look for cross currents, and see how patterns fit together and what they might mean. Camus' Myth of Sisyphus as well as The Fall were quite interesting (the Absurdity of Life). I just look for intersections of thoughts between myself and others that I read.

Quote:
Good way to learn and grow. I think that when we are ready, when the time is right, when we are balanced, and when we go within ourselves seeking silence it is only then can we truly discover truth. Let the truth shine outward through who you are and what you do in your life. I'm a believer that when the point comes where we can overcome money and ego and seek the still waters of our inner mind and the silent whisperings within nature, we will rise above all that we think we need into an understanding and a knowing... I'm not calling it truth but the results of working knowingly with creation and your fellow man in harmony and balance are positive and life changing. Smile
Thanks for sharing with me your perspective about Life.

Regards,
Rich

---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------

kennethamy;68242 wrote:
When you say that people are "living truths" I am afraid you have lost me. Things, entities, cannot be truths. A chair cannot be a truth, nor can a person be a truth. You would have to explain to me what you could possibly mean by saying such a thing. It seems to be what philosophers call, a "category mistake". Like saying that the square root of - 1 is purple. It makes no sense. And what "truth is unique to us all" is something I find bewildering. What could that mean?


Hi,

Where we differ, is that I observe that all that you say comes from your perspective, and you see these as Truths. However, from my perspective, it is all entirely different. My Individual Consciousness, simply sees it differently. This would be an example of Free Will. If I saw it the same, because you saw it in one way, I would not have Free Will.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 09:19 am
@richrf,
richrf;68248 wrote:
I myself wouldn't call that a truth, though you might. But I have certainly observed lots of what you describe. I think people use this search for truth as a means to congregate as groups around a leader. Being part of a group is very comforting, and I have observe that people do this all of the time.



I would say that we all see things differently, even if it appears to be the same. The reason being is that we all occupy our own unique space/time in the universe, and therefore have our own individual perspective - what I call Individual Consciousness.

The way I look at things, is that there is an Individual Consciousness that is learning, and some things we learn very well (we call this luck), and other things are yet to learn, and it is the second part that keeps us interested in Life. Smile



It is my own philosophy which I developed over many years. I delve into many different types of activities. I observe what I am doing and what others are doing. And a create a model in my mind that makes sense to me. Lots of my thoughts are influenced by Itzhak Bentov, and other ancient cultures. Not just Greece, but Eastern philosophies, American Indian, Polynesian, etc. I look for cross currents, and see how patterns fit together and what they might mean. Camus' Myth of Sisyphus as well as The Fall were quite interesting (the Absurdity of Life). I just look for intersections of thoughts between myself and others that I read.



Thanks for sharing with me your perspective about Life.

Regards,
Rich

Best of luck to you in your path of life. Hope to see you around the forums and look forward to other responses. Hmmm... What if I'm wrong? :sarcastic:


---------- Post added at 09:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 AM ----------



Hi,

Where we differ, is that I observe that all that you say comes from your perspective, and you see these as Truths. However, from my perspective, it is all entirely different. My Individual Consciousness, simply sees it differently. This would be an example of Free Will. If I saw it the same, because you saw it in one way, I would not have Free Will.

Rich[/QUOTE]

Well, of course all I say comes from my perspective. From whose perspective would you expect it to come from? That is just an obvious platitude.But that does not imply that what I say is not true, and that it cannot be justified as being true. From the perspective of the African tribe, having children has nothing to do with sexual intercourse. And from my perspective, having children has a lot to do with sexual intercourse. And, of course, I am right, and I can show I am right. And they are wrong, and it can be shown they are wrong. And perspective has nothing at all to do with the truth of what causes conceiving children.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 09:33 am
@kennethamy,
Hi again,

Quote:
I am right, and I can show I am right. And they are wrong, and it can be shown they are wrong. And perspective has nothing at all to do with the truth of what causes conceiving children.
That's fine with me. But please understand my problem. I come across hundreds of people in my life who tell me that they know the Truth (maybe thousands). My problem is that all of the Truths are different. So it will take me some time to sort it all out. Give me some time, OK?

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 11 Jun, 2009 10:39 am
@richrf,
richrf;68282 wrote:
Hi again,

That's fine with me. But please understand my problem. I come across hundreds of people in my life who tell me that they know the Truth (maybe thousands). My problem is that all of the Truths are different. So it will take me some time to sort it all out. Give me some time, OK?

Rich

Not all truths are different. Many people believe that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. There are over two million residents of Quito, and I bet all of them believe the same thing, that Quito is the capital.
Yes, some people think they know things, but they are mistaken. On the other hand, some people know things, and they are not mistaken. When people disagree about what is true, I guess we have to look at the evidence, and try to discover which one is correct, and which is not correct. But, I suppose you already know that.
 
Ultracrepidarian
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 04:31 am
@kennethamy,
I know that. I know that like a ship's captain.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 07:07 am
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian;69564 wrote:
I know that. I know that like a ship's captain.


I hope that whatever ship's captain you are talking about knows that too.
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 08:49 am
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian;69564 wrote:
I know that. I know that like a ship's captain.


Quite to the point!
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 08:54 am
@richrf,
richrf;69603 wrote:
Quite to the point!


It may very well be. But, could you tell me, what's the point?
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 08:55 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;68297 wrote:
Not all truths are different. Many people believe that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. There are over two million residents of Quito, and I bet all of them believe the same thing, that Quito is the capital.


Well, the only way of Knowing, is to take a poll. The problem however is that as soon as you take the poll of one person and move on to the next, the poll is already obsolete. So it is really difficult to Know.


Quote:
Yes, some people think they know things, but they are mistaken. On the other hand, some people know things, and they are not mistaken.
Are you 100% sure about this? It is the crux of the question.

Quote:
When people disagree about what is true, I guess we have to look at the evidence, and try to discover which one is correct, and which is not correct. But, I suppose you already know that.
Evidence is all over the place. You can look at it from this way or that way. And then someone makes a decision. Here in the U.S. hundreds of people are on death row who are innocent. Who knows how many people have been put to death who were innocent. In Illinois, all capital punishments were set aside because of this monstrosity in human behavior. Just the result of people who were sure of themselves and had the evidence to back them up.

Rich

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

kennethamy;69604 wrote:
It may very well be. But, could you tell me, what's the point?


The ship's captain has to make a decision, and must feel sure of himself/herself at the time. There is no recourse. There is no intrinsic truth to what he does. It is a personal feeling. The ship may end up capsizing? Was the captain wrong at the time the decision was made?

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 16 Jun, 2009 09:11 am
@richrf,
richrf;69605 wrote:
Well, the only way of Knowing, is to take a poll. The problem however is that as soon as you take the poll of one person and move on to the next, the poll is already obsolete. So it is really difficult to Know.


Are you 100% sure about this? It is the crux of the question.

Evidence is all over the place. You can look at it from this way or that way. And then someone makes a decision. Here in the U.S. hundreds of people are on death row who are innocent. Who knows how many people have been put to death who were innocent. In Illinois, all capital punishments were set aside because of this monstrosity in human behavior. Just the result of people who were sure of themselves and had the evidence to back them up.

Rich

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------



The ship's captain has to make a decision, and must feel sure of himself/herself at the time. There is no recourse. There is no intrinsic truth to what he does. It is a personal feeling. The ship may end up capsizing? Was the captain wrong at the time the decision was made?

Rich


Why is the only way of knowing to take a poll? It isn't even any way of knowing. I know that Quito is the capital because I have looked it up in reliable sources like the Atlas, or the World Book of Facts. That a lot of people believe that Quito is the capital doesn't matter. It would still be the capital even if they did not believe it. I would suppose that, in fact, the great majority of people in the world do not believe that Quito is the capital. So what?

Of course I am sure that if someone knows that p is true, then he is not mistaken? How can he know that p is true, and p not be true? That would be a contradiction. (Of course, a person can believe he knows that p is true, and be mistaken. But I have pointed this out a number of times).

Was the captain wrong about what? What belief did he have that he could have been right or wrong about it? Tell me that, and maybe I can reply intelligently. After all, whether someone is right or wrong depends on what it is that he believes, and whether what he believes is true. Where did the ship's captain come from, anyway?
 
 

 
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