Why I don't seek the Truth

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nameless
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 05:18 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68132 wrote:
I do not answer yes or no. I always answer maybe.

Maybe Logic Academy
Enjoy! *__-
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 05:37 pm
@nameless,
nameless;69957 wrote:


Good looking site. I've been trying to figure out what to do with my site at http://links.com. Congratulations!

Rich
 
Theages
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 05:50 pm
@richrf,
richrf;68132 wrote:

I do not answer yes or no. I always answer maybe.

What do you mean by "always"?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 05:52 pm
@Theages,
Theages;69964 wrote:
What do you mean by "always"?


Probably, maybe.
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 06:22 pm
@Theages,
Theages;69964 wrote:
What do you mean by "always"?


As I think about it, I just don't reply to questions as though I am positive about something - e.g., I know, or I am sure, or I am definite. I seem to always phrase my answers in such a way that I express at least the possibility of some doubt, e.g. I think so, or As best as I can remember, or I am pretty sure, something like that. I am just not the kind of person who approaches life as though I KNOW something. That's all. I just think it may be so. Keeps my options open.

Rich

---------- Post added at 07:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:22 PM ----------

kennethamy;69965 wrote:
Probably, maybe.


I express myself in terms of probabilities not certainties. For one thing, everyone that I have ever met who said something for certain - e.g. "I know that the stock market will keep going up" or "Home prices always go up", has ended up not only losing a bundle of his/her own money but also those of friends and colleagues. I rather not be in that position. I believe, that certainty may eventually catches up to those who have it.

Rich
 
Theages
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 07:05 pm
@richrf,
richrf;69971 wrote:
I just don't reply to questions as though I am positive about something

Are you positive about that?
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 17 Jun, 2009 08:36 pm
@Theages,
Theages;69979 wrote:
Are you positive about that?

It's the best that I recollect. My friends may tell me differently.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 01:02 am
@richrf,
richrf;69971 wrote:

I express myself in terms of probabilities not certainties. For one thing, everyone that I have ever met who said something for certain - e.g. "I know that the stock market will keep going up" or "Home prices always go up", has ended up not only losing a bundle of his/her own money but also those of friends and colleagues. I rather not be in that position. I believe, that certainty may eventually catches up to those who have it.

Rich



Yes, feeling certain sometimes is a mistake, and we should always remember Cromwell's adjuration to the Partiament, "Think, for God's sake, that ye may be mistaken". I, myself, count myself as a fallibilist in epistemology. I think there are very few certainties (if any at all), and dogmatism and certainty go hand in hand. A cautious person in never certain, and I, along with David Hume, recommend always, "a tincture of scepticism".

But that does not mean I (and others) do not know lots of things. The trouble with the entirely justified aversion to certainty is that people tend to throw out the baby with the bathwater. They confuse certainty with knowing, and so, eschew both. One can (and should) keep the baby, and throw out the bathwater. It is well, too, to distinguish between the subjective feeling of certainty, which objective certainty (if any). I, myself, know I was born, and I even feel certain I was born (as I think I am justified in doing). But I would not say that I am certain, or that it is certain, that I was born, since there is a slight (although negligible) possibility that I am wrong.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 08:24 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70033 wrote:
But I would not say that I am certain, or that it is certain, that I was born, since there is a slight (although negligible) possibility that I am wrong.


Hi,

I have no problem with you being certain about things. The only issue is if you impose your certainty on me (or possibly others). At times I (and others) may concede , and at times, I (and others) may disagree. The level and amount of certainty runs the gamut in the human race and sometimes it leads to some very unfortunate results. I rather not go there since having certainty does not mean that much to me.

In my science class, in junior high school, in the 1960s, I was taught that electrons circle around neutrons and protons. The old Rutherford model that I was being taught had long been replaced by the quantum model. However, the teacher was teaching me the Rutherford model and I had to concede if I wanted my A. This is the process of building consensus by force (science teachers were the best at it, since they claimed science was on their side).

Now, this is what I believe schooling is all about. How humans build consensus about the world around them. Listening to the teacher. Conceding that the teacher is right. And mimicking the teacher on a test to get an A. Smile Not too much different from working in a corporation. So school prepares one well for some aspects of life. Learning to think independently is something that one learns on one's own time.

BTW, in Jung's autobiography there is quite a story about how a professor of Jung's was certain that Jung cheated on a essay that Jung wrote and failed him for it. Jung, in a televised interview when he was in his 80s, talked about how to that day, Jung remembered that professor and how much he hated that professor - in fact wanted to kill him. My guess is that this episode was a good learning lesson for Jung, since Jung was a rather humble person in his later life.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 02:59 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70085 wrote:
Hi,

I have no problem with you being certain about things. The only issue is if you impose your certainty on me (or possibly others). At times I (and others) may concede , and at times, I (and others) may disagree. The level and amount of certainty runs the gamut in the human race and sometimes it leads to some very unfortunate results. I rather not go there since having certainty does not mean that much to me.

In my science class, in junior high school, in the 1960s, I was taught that electrons circle around neutrons and protons. The old Rutherford model that I was being taught had long been replaced by the quantum model. However, the teacher was teaching me the Rutherford model and I had to concede if I wanted my A. This is the process of building consensus by force (science teachers were the best at it, since they claimed science was on their side).

Now, this is what I believe schooling is all about. How humans build consensus about the world around them. Listening to the teacher. Conceding that the teacher is right. And mimicking the teacher on a test to get an A. Smile Not too much different from working in a corporation. So school prepares one well for some aspects of life. Learning to think independently is something that one learns on one's own time.

BTW, in Jung's autobiography there is quite a story about how a professor of Jung's was certain that Jung cheated on a essay that Jung wrote and failed him for it. Jung, in a televised interview when he was in his 80s, talked about how to that day, Jung remembered that professor and how much he hated that professor - in fact wanted to kill him. My guess is that this episode was a good learning lesson for Jung, since Jung was a rather humble person in his later life.

Rich


As I said, I am not certain about anything much, although I may feel certain about a number of things. But those (feeling and being certain are different). I think, though, I know quite a number of things, and so do you. But I think that you are more concerned about people imposing certainty on you than you should be. I don't really remember anyone trying to impose what they are (of even feel) certain of on me. Not in school, not anywhere. But maybe your experience is unusual. I never felt I mimicked the teacher, certainly not to get an A. Do you recall any occasion when the teacher described some fact or other, and you thought what he said was false except for that text incident. (Of course, it sometimes happens that the student is mistaken about what the text actually says. I am not saying that happened in your case, but it is, after all, a possibility. You cannot be certain you were not mistaken, and the teacher was right because you misunderstood the text. Can you be?) I have noticed how people are skeptical about everything except their own skepticism. Have you ever noticed that?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 03:23 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70161 wrote:
As I said, I am not certain about anything much, although I may feel certain about a number of things. But those (feeling and being certain are different). I have noticed how people are skeptical about everything except their own skepticism. Have you ever noticed that?


I notice lots of things. And one of them is how people reach consensus. Actually, most people I have met do not have much skepticism at all. They believe their doctors, their lawyers, their teachers, their financial planners, their real estate sales person, their banker, their broker, etc. Most do not question any authority in life ... and the authorities love it!

I think in school, it was all about mimicking the teacher. I remember fine tuning my answers for one type of teacher to get an A, and then completely changing my answers and thoughts for another teacher the next year. It is quite a game.

Someone says the earth is round. But is it? Why do they say it? Because the teacher told them to say it, and because they said it, they get their A. Someone says the earth is a sphere (now we are going into the higher grades). But is it? Does anyone challenge it in school. Nope. Everyone sits still, writes down the correct answer, studies it hard, and then mimics it on their test - and the rest of their lives. Is the earth a sphere? Does someone question it? Why should they? Just say it, everyone is in agreement and move on.

Most of what I read every day mimics what someone else said. It is the fastest and easiest way to reach consensus. Nothing wrong with that. How many truly creative thoughts do I run into each day? Not many.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 03:33 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70167 wrote:
I notice lots of things. And one of them is how people reach consensus. Actually, most people I have met do not have much skepticism at all. They believe their doctors, their lawyers, their teachers, their financial planners, their real estate sales person, their banker, their broker, etc. Most do not question any authority in life ... and the authorities love it!

I think in school, it was all about mimicking the teacher. I remember fine tuning my answers for one type of teacher to get an A, and then completely changing my answers and thoughts for another teacher the next year. It is quite a game.

Someone says the earth is round. But is it? Why do they say it? Because the teacher told them to say it, and because they said it, they get their A. Someone says the earth is a sphere (now we are going into the higher grades). But is it? Does anyone challenge it in school. Nope. Everyone sits still, writes down the correct answer, studies it hard, and then mimics it on their test - and the rest of their lives. Is the earth a sphere? Does someone question it? Why should they? Just say it, everyone is in agreement and move on.

Most of what I read every day mimics what someone else said. It is the fastest and easiest way to reach consensus. Nothing wrong with that. How many truly creative thoughts do I run into each day? Not many.

Rich


Would you prefer mundane but true, or creative but false? Truth is more important than importance. Don't you think?
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 03:41 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70170 wrote:
Would you prefer mundane but true, or creative but false? Truth is more important than importance. Don't you think?


Personally, I love creative. It gets me excited to see or hear something new. But that is just me. I get bored very quickly. Smile My ex could do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over .. well, you get the point. :sarcastic:

The other day, two young kids came up to me for money. The youngest (maybe 8) asked for 50 cents. The older (maybe 12) nudged him and whispered: "for the bus". I burst out laughing. Now that was great. Of course, I game them the money for some creativity!

Now, when I was in the dumps, I was walking past a begger. I noticed him, but just walked by. Coming back, he noticed to me, and I was 10 feet past him, when he said in a loud voice to me: "It's not so bad". I turned to him and asked him what he said? He said "It's not so bad". I smiled, and said thanks a lot. A stranger saw that I was in the dumps and told me that it was not so bad. Now that is worth more to me than a session with a shrink.

Life is full of amazing things. Why should I get bogged down with whether something is true or false - whatever that might mean?

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:08 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70172 wrote:
Personally, I love creative. It gets me excited to see or hear something new. But that is just me. I get bored very quickly. Smile My ex could do the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over .. well, you get the point. :sarcastic:

The other day, two young kids came up to me for money. The youngest (maybe 8) asked for 50 cents. The older (maybe 12) nudged him and whispered: "for the bus". I burst out laughing. Now that was great. Of course, I game them the money for some creativity!

Now, when I was in the dumps, I was walking past a begger. I noticed him, but just walked by. Coming back, he noticed to me, and I was 10 feet past him, when he said in a loud voice to me: "It's not so bad". I turned to him and asked him what he said? He said "It's not so bad". I smiled, and said thanks a lot. A stranger saw that I was in the dumps and told me that it was not so bad. Now that is worth more to me than a session with a shrink.

Life is full of amazing things. Why should I get bogged down with whether something is true or false - whatever that might mean?

Rich


What, are you saying, is supposed to be incompatible with truth and falsity? I don't understand your point. Are you saying that when the beggar said that it isn't so bad he was saying what was false, and that you didn't care? I am puzzled.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:44 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70241 wrote:
What, are you saying, is supposed to be incompatible with truth and falsity? I don't understand your point. Are you saying that when the beggar said that it isn't so bad he was saying what was false, and that you didn't care? I am puzzled.


I like creativity. I get bored quickly. So, I like it when new things happen in my life that are different and surprising. I am not seeking truth. Just surprises and amusement. Smile

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:54 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70247 wrote:
I like creativity. I get bored quickly. So, I like it when new things happen in my life that are different and surprising. I am not seeking truth. Just surprises and amusement. Smile

Rich


No one has claimed that your life should be devoted to seeking nothing but truth. But just seeking surprises and amusement may get you into a position where you wish you has sought the truth before hand. You may find, for example, that what you thought would be amusing turned out not to be at all amusing, and that you could have saved yourself a lot of grief by doing some investigation into whether what you thought would be amusing would really be amusing. I wonder, though, that I have to tell that to anyone over the age of three.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 10:58 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70249 wrote:
No one has claimed that your life should be devoted to seeking nothing but truth. But just seeking surprises and amusement may get you into a position where you wish you has sought the truth before hand. You may find, for example, that what you thought would be amusing turned out not to be at all amusing, and that you could have saved yourself a lot of grief by doing some investigation into whether what you thought would be amusing would really be amusing. I wonder, though, that I have to tell that to anyone over the age of three.


lol. I use to like seeking truth, but it was bad for my ego, since I always turned out to be wrong. Something new always came along. It felt like a donkey trying to eat a carrot hung out in from of him. Smile

So I decided to end that part of my journey and go elsewhere. However, I have no problem with people seeing the truth if that is what they want to do. As for me, I rather like creative thoughts, dancing, table tennis, chess, and a nice long walk during a sunny day.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 11:17 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70250 wrote:
lol. I use to like seeking truth, but it was bad for my ego, since I always turned out to be wrong. Something new always came along. It felt like a donkey trying to eat a carrot hung out in from of him. Smile

So I decided to end that part of my journey and go elsewhere. However, I have no problem with people seeing the truth if that is what they want to do. As for me, I rather like creative thoughts, dancing, table tennis, chess, and a nice long walk during a sunny day.

Rich


Good. You have obviously found it it true that you enjoy dancing, table tennis, and long walks. I guess that is why you do those things, since if you had found it false that you enjoy those things, I suppose you would not do them.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 11:41 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;70254 wrote:
Good. You have obviously found it it true that you enjoy dancing, table tennis, and long walks. I guess that is why you do those things, since if you had found it false that you enjoy those things, I suppose you would not do them.


Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It all works for me. Life is full of ups and downs.

Rich
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 11:53 pm
@richrf,
richrf;70259 wrote:
Sometimes yes and sometimes no. It all works for me. Life is full of ups and downs.

Rich


You mean that if you found that chess bored you, and you dislike it, you would continue to play it? Don't you continue to play chess because it is true that you like to play chess? And, by the way, are you ever interested at all in whether your opponent has made a legal or an illegal move, or are you indifferent to that too?
 
 

 
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