Knowledge and Desire

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Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 05:08 am
Is the pursuit of knowledge based in desire? Is desire the cause of all suffering?
 
Justin
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:27 am
@Electra phil,
Hmm... good question. Maybe you could elaborate a little on the question. Yes, maybe and elaboration on which suffering would be helpful. Do you have an example?

It would depend on which knowledge and where the desire is coming from.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:39 am
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
Hmm... good question. Maybe you could elaborate a little on the question. Yes, maybe and elaboration on which suffering would be helpful. Do you have an example?

It would depend on which knowledge and where the desire is coming from.


Hi Justin -

In my experience, all knowledge is one, so it would be irrelevant in my thinking anyway, to specify which knowledge.

Suffering (arising from desire), defined in the context of tanha or "thirst".

"According to Buddhist teachings, craving, or desire, springs from the notion that if one's desires are fulfilled it will, of itself, lead to one's lasting happiness or well-being. Such beliefs normally result in further craving/desire and the repeated enactment of activities to bring about the desired results. This is graphically depicted in the Bhavacakra. The repeated cycling through states driven by craving and its concomitant clinging Upadana.

The meaning of Taṇhā (craving, desire, want, thirst), extends beyond the desire for material objects or sense pleasures. It also includes the desire for life (or death, in the case of someone wishing to commit suicide), desire for fame (or infamy, its opposite), desire for sleep, desire for mental or emotional states (happiness, joy, rapture, love) if they are not present and would like them to be.

If we experience, say depression or sorrow, we can desire its opposite. The meaning of Taṇhā is far-reaching and covers all desire, all wanting, all craving, irrespective of its intensity."

Tanha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:08 am
@Electra phil,
I feel I should include this too:

In Buddhism, the central problem is identified as dukkha, a term in Pali and Sanskrit which can be translated as suffering or unsatisfactoriness; because this term is often misinterpreted in translation, it should be noted that dukkha specifically also includes an "underlying angst" and not only a more active conception of pain or suffering (see Viparinama-dukkha and Sankhara-dukkha, under dukkha); these latter forms are brought about due to the inherent changing nature of all phenomena (namely, that unease that comes from an ongoing, not fully conscious realization that anything one is or does will ultimately disintegrate). The fundamental principles of Buddhism, the Four Noble Truths, describe dukkha and a method of "awakening" from it. See also: samsara see also the different approaches of Buddhism and Christianity to the question of suffering.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 08:56 am
@Electra phil,
Im impressed by your knowledge of Buddhism and the other things you have mentioned, I too am fascinated by 'religions' and beliefs, espeacially the origins and differences between them. The aquiring and application of this knowledge was called (when I was a priest) Ministry of the 'cults' as it was classified.

However I never came across Buddhists and the like (new age, yes I have) and only have a rudimentry understand.

I would say their are many types of knowledge. For example; dialectics, logic, 'gosip'(useless chinesse whispers) which people seek, 'facts' that are useless (just general knowledge at best), and Aquired knowledge about things that is really just one view of it or speculation. This is just of the top of my head, I cant see how as one they would fit the same catagorization, can you help.

Desire is a wonderfully strange phanominon, do animals have desires other than instinctive (mating, eating, drinking, hybination, nurturing its young). Humans are not as adapted to its environment as animals (if there is a difference). We wouldnt even know what is good for us to eat if a bloke in a white coat from university didnt tell us. We alter our world and create something completly different from what the environment provides. Our desires are not natural; sexual appitites for example, and desire for material possesions, and the desire for all things that harm us. Would I be correct in saying that we are just 'filling' a gap and not desiring the very thing we need?
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:08 pm
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
Im impressed by your knowledge of Buddhism and the other things you have mentioned, I too am fascinated by 'religions' and beliefs, espeacially the origins and differences between them. The aquiring and application of this knowledge was called (when I was a priest) Ministry of the 'cults' as it was classified.

However I never came across Buddhists and the like (new age, yes I have) and only have a rudimentry understand.

I would say their are many types of knowledge. For example; dialectics, logic, 'gosip'(useless chinesse whispers) which people seek, 'facts' that are useless (just general knowledge at best), and Aquired knowledge about things that is really just one view of it or speculation. This is just of the top of my head, I cant see how as one they would fit the same catagorization, can you help.

Desire is a wonderfully strange phanominon, do animals have desires other than instinctive (mating, eating, drinking, hybination, nurturing its young). Humans are not as adapted to its environment as animals (if there is a difference). We wouldnt even know what is good for us to eat if a bloke in a white coat from university didnt tell us. We alter our world and create something completly different from what the environment provides. Our desires are not natural; sexual appitites for example, and desire for material possesions, and the desire for all things that harm us. Would I be correct in saying that we are just 'filling' a gap and not desiring the very thing we need?


My teachers tell me there is a pure state of mind. That this kind of mind existed once and in those times there was no word for lie, because people did not ever do so.

They tell me that one of the blocks to returning to this pure state of living in truth is knowing, pursuit of knowledge and intellectualism. These things are viewed by my teachers as POISON.

That does not mean we should all be dumb or idiotic. There can be much wisdom in the world without so many theories, words, arguments, debates, hypothesis, differences, problems, etc.

I understand requests to clarify, but I think in doing so we muddy.

Is it possible for a person to live in a state with no desire. That does not mean we do not eat, wash or take care of business by any means. It means we stop burning up with a sense of unfulfillment, I think.

Yes stop attempting to fill the gap with nonesense and return to what is essential and true. Is that not imperative in reflection of the current state of the world?
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:36 pm
@Electra phil,
I should say here that there are many jumps to be taken here about all this in terms of Buddhism. I don't want to go down that path in depth, if at all possible. My main point is about knowledge and the pursuit of, for this is a crossroads of decision I am making for myself currently.

I appreciate any thoughts.


XX
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 07:43 pm
@Electra phil,
Does everybody have the same needs for fullfilment? Some people are happy with simple things, like a good book or a family to go home to, a dose of success always goes down a treat. In my experiance ive been called mad, weird and unballanced because I said something along the lines of 'theres more to life than what we see' or 'dont you yern for fullfilment' ect. I tend to put these people down as 'a bit thick' (I know thats completly wrong, but anyway).

In my experiance as a Christian, it is incredibly hard to deal with situations where people are openly mocking you (even your friends!) and to deal with all the absolutly ridiculous comments made that even a non believer would know was stupid. One example is ''If God made the world, then he made all the evil, then so he must be evil aswell, like a rapist or a pedophial?'':confused: So I would say it is not natural to be able to block out all the theories, arguements, debates, hypothesis, differences and problems. This is because the world garrenties two things about people; they're going to be individual and with their own theories ect.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 05:07 am
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
Does everybody have the same needs for fullfilment? Some people are happy with simple things, like a good book or a family to go home to, a dose of success always goes down a treat. In my experiance ive been called mad, weird and unballanced because I said something along the lines of 'theres more to life than what we see' or 'dont you yern for fullfilment' ect. I tend to put these people down as 'a bit thick' (I know thats completly wrong, but anyway).

In my experiance as a Christian, it is incredibly hard to deal with situations where people are openly mocking you (even your friends!) and to deal with all the absolutly ridiculous comments made that even a non believer would know was stupid. One example is ''If God made the world, then he made all the evil, then so he must be evil aswell, like a rapist or a pedophial?'':confused: So I would say it is not natural to be able to block out all the theories, arguements, debates, hypothesis, differences and problems. This is because the world garrenties two things about people; they're going to be individual and with their own theories ect.


I think it might be from which perspective one goes about seeking fulfillment. Ego-based ideas often are exercises in the dark, leading again and again to a series of disappointments and disillusions.

People that make idiotic statements about God are at least in a mode of speculation. I know people who never ever think about it all. My own mother says that she accepted the idea that God is a bearded man that lives in heaven (as a REAL concept, mind you). Something she was told at the age of SIX and never again explored or discovered for herself!

The DaVinci Code kept her up thinking until 5 am, needless to say! lol

I will post an article from Walter Russell in my next post, so as to illustrate the crossroads I am at right now. Thank you for your voice.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 05:16 am
@Electra phil,
[CENTER]The Science of Thinking and Action
Self-Multiplication Principle Through Thought-Power
By Walter Russell[/CENTER]

[CENTER]1935 [/CENTER]

After a lifetime spent in search of what constitutes greatness in a man, and for words which will inclusively define that which we call "greatness," I have finally concluded that the following is a perfect definition: Man's power lies in his ability to demonstrate a principle.

Upon the structure of the above definition, this is written to probe as deeply as possible into what makes one man superior or inferior to another. The author believes that one may multiply himself at will by multiplying his power.

One cannot multiply one's power without a greater knowledge of what constitutes power. Let us question this in order that we may multiply ourselves without limit.

Fear and Change

Fear of thought and fear of change are the two great anchors which hold civilization back, and hold the individual back. Civilization is about to undergo the greatest change in two thousand years. Men fear it. Maeterlinck says: "At every crossroad on the way that leads to the future, each progressive spirit is opposed by a thousand men appointed to guard the past."

This imminent change is due to the rapidly evolving greater race of THINKERS which began to people the world about one hundred years ago in preparation for this day. Bertrand Russell says: "Men fear THOUGHT, as they fear nothing else on earth." Civilization is once more about to redivide and subdivide itself into THINKERS who lead and non-thinker followers.

Periodically civilization thus divides its progeny into the favored and the unfavored, and each person is himself the determining factor in his own classification. This pending re-division and reclassification of the world's great thinkers and followers is the most stupendous which has ever taken place in the history of man.

The THINKER has always ruled, possessed, owned, commanded and become exalted above the follower, who has always been exploited as the laborer, impoverished, enslaved and oppressed. Gradually, however, the narrowing social and economic gap between the two has lessened the misery of the laborer, but the division between thinker and follower remains. Why? Because the coming new cultural age of greater luxury and higher standards of living than the world has ever known before will demand a greater percentage of thinkers and a lesser percentage of followers.



Creative Thinking

This creating universe of all that is, or ever has been, is the result of balanced thought and action. Thinking alone is not creative thinking. If the Universal Mind were limited to thinking alone, the universe of form and motion would never have been. It would not have been created. It would have been limited to the idea of itself, the concept of itself, without form and void.

When the God-force of creation acts upon the thought-idea of the universe, the God-force demonstrated the principle contained in the divine Idea and the universe comes into being-forever "creating." The Supreme Ruler of all things can do only two things: THINK and ACT. Out of balanced thought and action, God's creating universe appears.

Man can also do only two things: THINK and ACT. Out of the more or less balanced thoughts and actions of man his universe of created things appears. These two things the Universal Mind does, man must also do in order to express power.

The dependability of Natural Law grows out of the balance of power between the two creative principles of Nature. The undependability of man's creations grows out of his lack of ability to balance his thinking with his acting. Nature is absolute. Without Natural Law there is no room for unbalance. Every portion of the universal concept must come into being (or form) true to concept. Man's aspirations and concepts rarely come into being true to concept. His thoughts and actions rarely balance themselves. When any man who conceives a great principle can balance the power of that thought-principle with an equally balanced series of actions to give perfection of form to that principle, he is heralded by all men as a genius.

The success of such a person lies in his relative ability to demonstrate a thought-principle by creating a form for it. The greater a man's ability to express himself creatively by demonstrating the thought-principles which flow through him, the greater his power. The Universal Creative Force, as evidenced in Natural Law, should be man's standard, his guide, and his goal.

The nearer man's approach to the absolute balance between universal creative thought and universal creative action, as expressed by the electric interrelation between space and material form of this electric universe of balanced thought and action, the greater the power of man.

Knowledge of itself is not power, as the proverb states, nor does one's ability to think great thoughts constitute power, for thinking without action creates nothing. No principle has been demonstrated. The thinker has not demonstrated creative ability until he has acted to bring the form of his idea into being.

Thinking without action images visions which die stillborn. Dreamers and visionaries who do not act to give form to their dreams and visions do not express power. They are impotent even though their inspiration be the mightiest ever conceived in the mind of man. They do not serve the world, even though their inner ecstasy makes them feel as a god.

Action without thinking does not constitute power, and for the same reason. Through action alone nothing is created. Through action alone things created by others are but repeated. Actions expressed upon the foundations of other peoples' creations are labor. Laborers are followers of leaders who create. In a certain respect they are physical extensions of minds which function in other bodies. As man can do but two things, think and act, so must man be ever classified as thinker or follower/laborer in accordance with each man's ability to both think and act.

Thinking is done with the mind and actions are performed with the body. The mind of the thinker contacts the inspirational Source of the Universal Mind from which this creating universe knows and owes its being. To the thinker there are no limitations which are not universal.

The mind of the follower/laborer is bound to his body sensing. His limitations are the limitations of objective and material sensing. He is a follower who resists change, for he is trained to repeat things as they are.

The thinker has no fear of anything. He is above fear. The follower fears everything. His objectivity breeds fear of everything in him.

The still center of man is the Kingdom of God, the still Light. And around that still Light is the coil, or a series of coils that we call "man," his knowing and thinking. There is no expression of power there, whatsoever, other than the power expressed in matter itself, until man knows and thinks. All the power that man has is in his knowing. And all of it is expressed only by his thinking. However, work must be performed in order to express power. But the power that we express is not in the body. The power that we express is in the still fulcrum of God centering every man-the Light which centers everyone and every creating thing. In that still fulcrum of rest is all the power. The action which extends from it is the expression of power, what we call Creation.

http://www.philosophy.org/index.php...&id=8&Itemid=35

The crossroads is this...I feel an excitement in my being that I would call "actualizing the genius". Now, it is not here yet, by any means. But it is a call to "step up" for the world and "play my part".

There is another part of my being that adores the idea of simplicity and silence as its keynote. Simplistic living as in Emerson and Thoreau. Experience with nature. Cutting back the fat. Leaving behind ideas of "being accomplished" having achieved a level of obtainment, etc. Leaving behind a long passage (my lifetime) of study, reading, knowing, talking about, etc.

Is there not something highly appealing about someone who is quiet and lives a life of clarity, peace, beauty, is self-sustained, creative, and contemplative?

Does the world really need more THINKERS and DO-ERS? Is what the world really needs is more silence and harmony. Can the two live together in one body? Is it an either or proposition????
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 04:33 pm
@Electra phil,
Smile Hi

I will keep talking to myself.

This is another process. Solve et Coagula. Knowledge and Conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel. Divine Union.

Thank you for listening. It seems that the idea of choice and "free will" could very well be illusions in which we participate.

In this process I am undergoing, there is no such thing. The Divine enters and its work begins. I become nothing but a tool for this Work.

XX
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 07:32 pm
@Electra phil,
Is this to asume that whatever we do is predestined and no action taken will result in a 'new path' not worked out by the divine? so what then If you or I just sit down and not do anything at all, wont this effect the 'great plan' envisaged?

Or is this also accounted for in the 'great plan'? Fatalism and predestination, if this is what you mean is very problematic, obviously, but may I add Christiananity is inclind towards this, as it makes out that God knows the end result already no matter what choices we take in human history. Yet choice is always given to people nevertheless.

Without reading for years to catchup with the basics of what you (ELECTRA) know of the subject, could you give me a sum up of the reasons and method that has concluded that choice and freewill are nonexistant, and our purpose is to 'be a tool'.

Hopfully this will give me better understanding of this topic, and may even help you think through what you are studying to help you make that desision you talk about.Smile
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 07:54 pm
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
Is this to asume that whatever we do is predestined and no action taken will result in a 'new path' not worked out by the divine? so what then If you or I just sit down and not do anything at all, wont this effect the 'great plan' envisaged?

Or is this also accounted for in the 'great plan'? Fatalism and predestination, if this is what you mean is very problematic, obviously, but may I add Christiananity is inclind towards this, as it makes out that God knows the end result already no matter what choices we take in human history. Yet choice is always given to people nevertheless.

Without reading for years to catchup with the basics of what you (ELECTRA) know of the subject, could you give me a sum up of the reasons and method that has concluded that choice and freewill are nonexistant, and our purpose is to 'be a tool'.

Hopfully this will give me better understanding of this topic, and may even help you think through what you are studying to help you make that desision you talk about.Smile


In my experience, we incarnate for a very specific purpose. It is almost like an orbit that is only our own.

In the wake of Initiatic Science, one comes into contact with level of awarenesses, beginning first and foremost with the lost 'I': why am I here? what is the meaning of life? is there a God? etc.

If one is diligent on any path, a light of knowing is experienced and the more beastial qualities become sublimated. See solve et coagula.

Over time a cosmic conversation begins to unfold. Along the way, the lower I, falters, fusses and fights--wanting to maintain it's perceived seperatist view, 'free will' (I can do what I want, so I think I am free).

Soon the I begins to recind to this Higher Self (God Voice) for lacking better terms (think essence of message).

I am in this particular process.

This is glorious and ecstatic, refer to mystical experience. But rest assured I am very high functioning, and not in any kind of state of weirdness or whatnot.

Once touched, listened to and understood -- one becomes the vehicle of the workings of the Divine.

I have fought this idea for years as an impossiblity. All I can say for whatever purpose it has been happening to me.

I do not believe it is fatalism or predestination. I believe the work of the Divine is a process of Creation, Love and Beauty that is ever unfolding and has many 'avenues' in which to manifest.

Going back to my original questions. It will be answered in this reflection with these conversations, incrementally over time. It was only my ill conceived notion that I must choose now and one path once and for all -- for the energies were demanding and intense. And my ego wants a parade and a song.

Thank you for reflecting.

I would like to know more about your priesthood and why you left. This thread is fine and appropriate to do so, if you wish to share.

Thank you again. Smile

Electra

XX
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Thu 23 Nov, 2006 06:35 am
@Electra phil,
Thank you for your sharing that information, I found it very insightful and I shall think about it indepth.

It is strange however that Im sorry to say that you are telling these things. It has been 'revealed' to me that there is no such thing as coincidence, and the things you mentioned;

'one comes into contact with level of awarenesses, beginning first and foremost with the lost 'I': why am I here? what is the meaning of life? is there a God? etc.' Quote ELECTRA

'Over time a cosmic conversation begins to unfold. Along the way, the lower I, falters, fusses and fights--wanting to maintain it's perceived seperatist view, 'free will' (I can do what I want, so I think I am free).'

'Soon the I begins to recind to this Higher Self (God Voice) for lacking better terms (think essence of message).' Quote ELECTRA

This reminds me of how my 'walk' with God started. Im hesitant to go over everything for a number of reasons, but Ill try and give a true and brief account of some of the things that happened, one thing to bear in mind is that it is subject to interpretation.

Nearly five years ago I was first given the idea of the possibility of God, which facinated me. I was 100% agnostic and always argued against god issues. But I began a long and issolated proccess of seeking. Which went through theology, philosophy,and known sciences (science does back up the notion of God, weirdly enough). I used these as a tool to help me understand more. I read different books and small bits of the bible, though I didnt believe in any truth in the bible.

Then something wierd happened. I used to spend hours, days and weeks alone just thinking about God and all the other things that would need to be in order for him to exist. I thought God could not be just an old man perched on a cload beyond all contact, just seperated from the creation. He had to be criticly linked and so entwind it would be impossible to sever the link. This ment it was totally possible to get to know God.

Then it begun, it started small then built up. It seemed that God would pose a question, then I would ponder it and then eventually he would give me the answer, which would lead to the next question and so on.It was an amazing experiance. I did continue my normal life and had a typical net work of friends and activities, so I wasnt a loner. I met my future girlfriend at this time, and I introduced her to what id been up to for a year or so, she was a hard core wicca whitch goth,so she didnt like the idea of God and put up with it anyway (for now, or then as it were). The first time we went out, we sat on a bench and she tried to get me to take home and read Anton Lavays Satanic bible, and another book about satanic dominance in the world.

It got to the point when I could hear or feel a 'voice' comunicating with me. Surprised One particular is when I was in my room and it said ''I need a new name!'' I thought ''what,Dave?''. then two weeks later, I was in the bath and it said 'I am, I am' I was biblicly illiterate, I didnt know the meaning of this,it was how God identified himself to moses (burning bush).

I have writen everything down into a book, and the crunch of it is that it is praticly identical to the revelations expresed in the bible about God. One time my wicca girlfriend and I we're sitting on a bench (same as before) by the river waiting for a lift of a friend, and a flock of pigeons landed at our feet, we continued to talk anyway. Eventuallly it moved away slightly, and a single pigeon came closer and bothered my feet, I made the comment,''oh Its Jesus come to visit me''. The whole flock burst away leaving this one pigeon by my feet, it walked along the ground towards Vikki and hopped up onto the arm of the bench, she started to freak, but I told her to calm down. Walked around the back of her and along the back rest then hopping on to my sholder. At this she freaked out and I said ''he'll go when we're ready to go!'' We continued to talk, changing the subject for a while then I saw my mates car apear in the car park. Before I could move, the bird flew away.

Now I was 'intune' and I had the bat phone to God. I even told Vikki-while we where in a time of not being a couple any longer that she was going to be the mother of my child. About two years later she was pregnant. Lots more to add, Ive been visited by an Angel and had prophesying dreams, not to mention, demonic attacks.

But yes I would say (atleast then) that it is definatly true that anybody can 'tune' into God and alow him to open a comunication with them.

Not many people would believe this. I hope this may help you in anyway you may want it to.Smile
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Thu 23 Nov, 2006 08:31 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Dear Pilgrimshost - Thank you for sharing with me. I wanted to 'file' this here before I forget it--will get back to you later on the rest -- XX Smile


This is the potential of experiencing the unconscious side of our unique personalities. As we move deeper into the dark side of our personality personal, identity begins to dissolve into "latent dispositions" common to all men (...) The Shadow is the easiest of the archetypes for most persons to experience. We tend to see it in "others." That is to say, we project our dark side onto others and thus interpret them as "enemies" or as "exotic" presences that fascinate. We see the Shadow everywhere in popular culture (...) The Shadow is the personification of that part of human, psychic possiblity that we deny in ourselves and project onto others. The goal of personality integration is to integrate the rejected, inferior side of our life into our total experience and to take responsibility for it."

Individuation means wholeness of Self or what I myself understand by the term integration of one's soul, so that the higher self (or the soul's consciousness) radiate from a person through his or her personality, for the approximation of the ego to the self "must be a never-ending process" that means that such a fulfilment is never really attained, since Jung regarded the ultimate perfection which the Self archetype stands for, as best symbolized by (symbols surrounding) Christ; whereas the symbolism of Satan often is attributed to the Shadow archetype.

Jung's emphasis on spiritual matters such as the Collective Unconsciousness as empirically immeasurable structures - withholding archetypes and disguised as symbols in myths, sagas and folklore - has met much criticism. Already at the turn of the century, the notion of soul had almost been excised from the minds and vocabularies of Western scientists, yet Jung insisted to do his research of the timeless and spaceless reality of human beings whereby he referred to the soul.

According to Jung, Individuation is an unavoidable part of Life's course. Individuation is realizing one's Self, when an individual embraces his or her innermost uniqueness. Self-realization has nothing to do with selfishness or egotism. Individuation is the opposite of Self-alienation. Jung viewed the psyche as generating a Life course of dynamics driven by opposites existing in an individual's psyche, whereby he or she unconsciously will strive for a greater amount of wholeness. Thus wrote Jung about Individuation in Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious (CW 9,1):


[INDENT]"In all cases of dissociation it is therefore necessary to integrate the unconscious into consciousness. This is a synthetic process, which I have termed the 'individuation process'. As a matter of fact, this process follows the natural course of life - a life in which the individual becomes what he always was. Because man has consciousness, a development of this kind does not run very smoothly; often it is varied and disturbed, because consciousness deviates again and again from its archetypal, instinctual foundation and finds itself in opposition to it. There then arises the need for a synthesis of the two positions". [/INDENT]


[CENTER]"Knowledge is knowing the Self.
Additional knowledge is a way to
Make us more humble and modest.
The one, who makes himself the lowest,
Knows everything,
And he gets access to the Universal
Consciousness of Eternal Life"
- Proverb from India[/CENTER]



Neft's Carl Gustav JUNG Homepage in English. THE JUNG HOMEPAGE. Jung 1875-1961.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Mon 27 Nov, 2006 02:07 am
@pilgrimshost,
Dear Pilgrimshost - sorry it took me so long to reply. Thank you for your story, it gave me insights I need to examine.

I feel I have the bat phone as well. I like this analogy lol.
The more I have experienced this, the more I have wanted to share it with other people. It has also immensly changed my perspective from what I used to think what was true, to what Is. Funny part is, people do not want to hear it--for the most part...

So what happens to us - we can become weird and eccentric hermits or evangelical preachers - lol what choices.

This is why I am attempting now to use Walter Russell's example on 'genius' and let this become my work and prayer. It is a way of illustrating to others the power of a relationship with spirit and God without preaching and putting yourself out on a limb.

This is the only hope for our world - a simple solution to every problem I know - but the one most resisted.

As far as knowledge and desire go - these are issues I have struggled with in terms of my 'lower self'. Lately I have felt a 'reunification' of polarities (even down to a cellular level).

Theosophy teaches that mind and matter are the 'two lesser lights' (polar expressions of the same). And The Soul is the third part of a trinity that unifies and illuminates the personality, dim knowledge, and more feebly perceived purposes. I am still reading about this.

Without executing some WORK all of this becomes no good. Visions and Ideals not brought into the world plane are called 'glamor' in this teaching. Meaning you believe you have achieved something, but in reality, it is all in your mind. This, they say, is why we have such an ugly world (at times)...

I look at this in reflection of my New Age friends and can only say how true! Much talk about love and light and wisdom and joy and beauty -- but nobody doing anything about the world.

My intention is to try to take this winding path and all the complex understandings, and simplify it into an exemplerary life. It seems like so much work to have gotten 'here'. Undoing so much societal brainwashing and self-deception...and yet--still so far to go. No real world translation has yet to manifest except my work in geomancy--and some efforts to be more patient, kind, seek wisdom in situation, smile, etc.

Thank you for listening. Smile
 
RemberingIAM
 
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 04:21 am
@Electra phil,
Electra,

Forgive my intrusion, but you mentioned geomancy. Could you start a post on this topic, I am at present privately researching earth fields, guided by the concepts developed by Walter Russell.

Presently my focus is the comprehending the nature of "Diamagnetic-Radiative-Female energies, and the "Paramagnetic-Generative-Male energies" of nature. As time progresses I hope to develop easy to follow, step by step instructions for experiments which I can post here in the future.

Please share your insights, and reveal your thoughts, and opinions, with all who would know more of geomancy. I welcome what you have to share, as I feel it will be a great addition to my ongoing search of truth and light,

Once again please forgive the intrusion.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 05:32 am
@RemberingIAM,
RemberingIAM wrote:
Electra,

Forgive my intrusion, but you mentioned geomancy. Could you start a post on this topic, I am at present privately researching earth fields, guided by the concepts developed by Walter Russell.

Presently my focus is the comprehending the nature of "Diamagnetic-Radiative-Female energies, and the "Paramagnetic-Generative-Male energies" of nature. As time progresses I hope to develop easy to follow, step by step instructions for experiments which I can post here in the future.

Please share your insights, and reveal your thoughts, and opinions, with all who would know more of geomancy. I welcome what you have to share, as I feel it will be a great addition to my ongoing search of truth and light,

Once again please forgive the intrusion.


RememberingIAM-

Sure will be happy to discuss this with you and others that are interested. Smile
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Tue 28 Nov, 2006 09:25 pm
@Electra phil,
Electra wrote:

Does the world really need more THINKERS and DO-ERS? Is what the world really needs is more silence and harmony. Can the two live together in one body? Is it an either or proposition????



Most humans wouldn't dream of harmonizing with ones who do not share their beliefs and ideals (i.e. (some/most) do-ers believe that thinkers simply waste their time not acting and being indolent; (some/most) thinkers believe that do-ers do a fine job, but could better be spending their time contemplating the mysteries of the earth so as not to act temariously in life... etc.). Many humans do not want to know why the 'other' (whatever opposite mindests there may be) group thinks like it does, their only concern is bringing their own group up, which leads to something getting messed up in their brains by having to put the other group down. You're quite correct; it shouldn't be an either/or proposition. But alas, such is life, especially in the U.S of A.. Here, otiosity in many choices comes anon.
And though I don't know about needing more silence (and believe you me, I am no cachinophilist), I do believe that the world needs more listening ears.

Oh, and has someone already answered your inquiry of, 'isn't desire the cause of suffering?'? I don't think so, but perhaps I've skipped over a line in the posts...
Hmm. Anyhow, I believe that when Buddha spoke of this 'desire', he meant 'when you take this desire to the point where it becomes unnecessarily potent'. I don't think he means 'when one merely wishes for something, he will be miserable', as that would likely lead to the contradicting of the rule of life that states (very roughly), 'when one wishes for something, then recieves it, he will not be content.'
Perhaps in the persuit of knowledge, one can reach a state where one's eyes are swelling and bloodshot and the only think one can think is 'MORE KNOWLEDGE!! I MUST HAVE MORE KNOWLEDGE!!!' But, for the most of us that have a penchant for having a nice cup of Earl Grey tea while sitting in their comfy chair and comtemplating a few of life's mysteries and conundrums, I would say that it would not bring suffering.
 
Electra phil
 
Reply Wed 29 Nov, 2006 05:34 am
@Ragnell,
Ragnell that was excellent and also made a have a morning giggle.

In my experience, desire is the whole reason we exist in the first place. Buddha can always make you feel somehow this is wrong and the only true desire is to become the flame gone out~

If it is true that mind and matter are the two 'lesser lights' of the same (a polarization)- that means this reality is a lot of smoke and mirrors.

The Tao Te Ching often talks about the 'Great Fragmentation' and a return to wholeness. It is interesting how one can have a direct experience with all of these teachings and still not really understand it. This is where good humor comes into play--so I am putting the kettle on for our tea.


*Remain Calm* is a good title for a galactic being's instruction manual. Reminds me of "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy". The manual in this movie had a flashing light that said DON'T PANIC.

As I look at my own experience, one of the most important things to remember is breathing. Consciously breathing, I mean. Deeply breathing. I think the nervous anticipatory type of breathing associated with new awareness can bring on a definite sense of heightened anxiety about it all.

The 'Little I' does not like the *new perspective* at all. It instantly clings to anyone who participates in falsity, illusion and glamor. Wanting to return to paradigms of thought it has already witnessed to be untruths.

It is very easy for Little I to engage in empirical searches for 'higher knowledge' with great ferver. It also likes a good confrontation with petty beings, whose modus operandi is conflict through sharp wit and loud accusations.

Bigger Me wants to relish All That Is and finds the scheme of things to be much bigger, softer, magnificent and delightful. It sees it is part of and IS everyTHING.

Bigger Me has a great ability to sit in a nice easy chair and share with you all.

It is way past Little I's bedtime. She is unruly and will do anything to satisfy a Great Desire to remain as she has previously constructed herself (and her ideas of the world) to be...

Bigger Me smiles, gives her a bottle and puts her to bed.
 
 

 
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