Absolute certainty

@Stormalv,

Let me try:
"A truth" is that which is beleived to be the case from a perspective.
"The truth" is that which is the case.
(note how the second one makes no sense, invites infinite criticism; it does not exist, that word in that sense means nothing)

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

Let me try:
"A truth" is that which is beleived to be the case from a perspective.
"The truth" is that which is the case.
(note how the second one makes no sense, invites infinite criticism; it does not exist, that word in that sense means nothing)

Truth Is.

And The Way Is to let go of any uncertainty, measure or doubt.
It was merely uncertainty that stood in the Way.
Life without measure is Truly Equal or One.

=
MJA

@MJA,

MJA, I think we have the same philosophy. The truth is not able to be known and stated, because the truth is the state of affairs, which includes any such knowledge or statement. Division is the first requirement of a statement, description or explanation (or knowledge) and the world is not truly divided. And so, in that sense, truth does not exist; it cannot be known or expressed.

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

MJA, I think we have the same philosophy. The truth is not able to be known and stated, because the truth is the state of affairs, which includes any such knowledge or statement. Division is the first requirement of a statement, description or explanation (or knowledge) and the world is not truly divided. And so, in that sense, truth does not exist; it cannot be known or expressed.

The Right Page.

There is a truth, nature's truth, an absolute certainty that can be spoken, can be lived, and can be sensed as well as what is. That truth is simply equal and the lion is One. Try life without measure, without judgment, and you will become equal too. Measure was the flaw.
If you find it difficult, in this world of inequity, of uncertain probable quantum mechanical scientifically measured division, of heavens and hells, and deities and infidels, of angels and devils, or theories and faiths, don't give up, try and try again.
It takes strength to rise above the quagmires of untruth and see the light of day. But the truth is worth the effort, the ultimate purpose of living, and much more simple and beautiful than thought.
The truth of One is the truth of All.

=
MJA

@paulhanke,

YO!

Only that which remains forever unquestioned could claim absolute certainty--------an unlikely prospect! Perhaps if absolute certainty had a time frame around it, the truth of the moment so to speak, forever unquestioned in the moment-------what do you think?

@Stormalv,

I find the idea of absolute certainty ridiculous. When someone claims to be absolutely certain, that means that they believes to know that which they do not know. By being absolute certain, an individual must know everything that is not of that certainty in order to make a factual claim about absolute knowledge. Unless someone considers all possible alternatives, there cannot be any sort of absolute certainty.

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

I find the idea of absolute certainty ridiculous. When someone claims to be absolutely certain, that means that they believes to know that which they do not know. By being absolute certain, an individual must know everything that is not of that certainty in order to make a factual claim about absolute knowledge. Unless someone considers all possible alternatives, there cannot be any sort of absolute certainty.

There is certainty and uncertainty,
and now we know with absolute certainty which One is you.

=
MJA

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

YO!

Only that which remains forever unquestioned could claim absolute certainty--------an unlikely prospect! Perhaps if absolute certainty had a time frame around it, the truth of the moment so to speak, forever unquestioned in the moment-------what do you think?

Now is the moment of Truth.

For surely the future is uncertain and the past, well, who can remember for sure.

=
MJA

@Stormalv,

By being absolute certain, an individual must know everything that is not of that certainty in order to make a factual claim about absolute knowledge...not necessarily true, and not true at all, and in that one would have to be ABSOLUTLEY CERTAIN of everything that exists, and to the exclusion of nothing that exists: in other words everything that could or would possibly EXIST must have an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY in its existence, otherwise it couldn't or wouldn't be said to EXIST, it most certainly could or would not be compared to the NON-ABSOLUTE NON-CERTAINTY...and which in anycase would or could not EXIST...absolute knowledge is not to be defined by non-absolute knowledge, but by its own self...SOMETHING is not to be defined by NOTHING, and in other words...

@Anthrobus,

Ok MJA, I take back what I said. I'll give you mysticism for your mysticism.

poetry
is
lamb
dust

and sometimes
shoes

@Anthrobus,

Anthrobus wrote:

By being absolute certain, an individual must know everything that is not of that certainty in order to make a factual claim about absolute knowledge...not necessarily true, and not true at all, and in that one would have to be ABSOLUTLEY CERTAIN of everything that exists, and to the exclusion of nothing that exists: in other words everything that could or would possibly EXIST must have an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY in its existence, otherwise it couldn't or wouldn't be said to EXIST, it most certainly could or would not be compared to the NON-ABSOLUTE NON-CERTAINTY...and which in anycase would or could not EXIST...absolute knowledge is not to be defined by non-absolute knowledge, but by its own self...

Are you absolutely certain of this?

=
MJA

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

Ok MJA, I take back what I said. I'll give you mysticism for your mysticism.

poetry
is
lamb
dust

and sometimes
shoes

I think poetry are words that freely come together in sometimes a rhythm and other times a simply perfect harmony.

A Poem

And beyond the mist of mysticism is the crystal clearity of truth.
Blow the smoke and mirrors away, and you will see it too.

=
MJA

@BrightNoon,

Hi all. I've spent a bit of time contemplating this one. At one point I was stuck on the idea that from a completely logical standpoint, cogito ergo sum can't prove anything, which is true. But... Regardless of that, can anyone here act as if they don't exist? Or even act as if the believe they don't exist? I don't think so... And so I propose to you that we are each (absolutely) certain of our own existence, regardless of any intellectual arguments we construct to the contrary. Of course this certainty is trapped within a subjective being, so it can not "prove" anything to the outside world, and in that way maybe it would not be called "absolute"... But for that subjective being, the certainty is inescapable- and therefore absolute for the subject... more absolute than any arguments to the contrary.

Make sense, or am I way off base? :perplexed:

@Stormalv,

Now is the moment of Truth.

For surely the future is uncertain and the past, well, who can remember for sure...

I'll have to disagree: this 'MOMENT', couldn't or wouldn't exist without the past moment, or the future moment, and that therein gives us the present moment, and of which you are in referral. The past and future can't just be dismissed so easily...

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

Hi all. I've spent a bit of time contemplating this one. At one point I was stuck on the idea that from a completely logical standpoint, cogito ergo sum can't prove anything, which is true. But... Regardless of that, can anyone here act as if they don't exist? Or even act as if the believe they don't exist? I don't think so... And so I propose to you that we are each (absolutely) certain of our own existence, regardless of any intellectual arguments we construct to the contrary. Of course this certainty is trapped within a subjective being, so it can not "prove" anything to the outside world, and in that way maybe it would not be called "absolute"... But for that subjective being, the certainty is inexcapable- and therefore absolute for the subject... more absolute than any arguments to the contrary.

Make sense, or am I way off base? :perplexed:

The certainty of One is the certainty of All, for all is certainly One.
If you know the certainty of your self,
it is only uncertain thoughts that keep you from the certainty of all.
Absolute certainty is entirely all up to you!

=
MJA
PS: Decartes had the right method, he just couldn't entirely let go.
Freedom is letting go.
Truth or nature calls and it is time for a bike ride, and time for me to let go.

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

Make sense, or am I way off base? :perplexed:

... I think we're all off base! Wink

Here's a thought: Godel showed that any mathematical system is incomplete - that is, there are certain ideas that seem to be inherent to a mathematical system but which you have to go outside of the mathematical system in order to state ... this leads to infinite regression (i.e., the mathematical system that is outside the original mathematical system is itself incomplete, ad infinitum) ... obviously, this says quite a bit about human constructions (mathematical systems such as logic) ... but does it say anything about reality? truth? - that is, aren't our logical systems merely models? approximations?

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

There is certainty and uncertainty,
and now we know with absolute certainty which One is you.

=
MJA

Well there is one thing you can be absolutely certain on, and that is uncertainty due to the fact you cannot know what you do not.

@paulhanke,

paulhanke wrote:

... but does it say anything about reality? truth? - that is, aren't our logical systems merely models? approximations?

... pushing this thought further, if a logical system for discovering truth fails to be able to prove its own worth - prove that the truths it discovers are in fact The Truth ... does that indeed deny the existence of The Truth, or does it merely reflect the limitations of logical systems? ... but now I find myself repeating Kethil, who made a much more poetic assertion way back at the beginning of this thread:

Khethil wrote:

Mathematics states itself, makes up its worn rules, then states itself to be true while we step back, clapping in tearful awe at "nature".

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme;33204 wrote:

I propose to you that we are each (absolutely) certain of our own existence, regardless of any intellectual arguments we construct to the contrary.

Until you get one of those dissociative moments, like when you're driving your car and you completely zone out, and then you come back to yourself and wonder where you've been and how you didn't crash. In other words, we spend a lot of time 'compromised' by sleep deprivation, stress, emotions, etc, where we aren't quite so analytical and we aren't quite so clear.

I'm not sure we're absolutely certain of our own existence when we're tired and dizzy. I'm not sure we're absolutely certain of our own existence when we fear (or learn) something horrible, or when we're deeply ashamed or remoreseful (and we wish it were all untrue). And when we contemplate transience, how some day we'll die, everyone will die, the world will come to an end, our existence seems doubtful as well.

That's at a superficial level. You might argue that deeper down everything we consciously do requires absolute confidence in our existence. But since we seldom think about this issue, I'm not sure that that argument really holds -- we do a lot of things in life without ever pondering our existence.

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Are you absolutely certain of this?

=
MJA

YES...EXISTENCE IS SELF-DEFINED, and NOT-OTHER DEFINED...ultimately, and particularly when we speak of the EVERYTHING...but not otherwise...

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Absolute certainty

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