Absolute certainty

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

Question: Because we can't know absolute truth is not to say "there is no" absolute truth. Indeed, by the very statement "there is no absolute truth" one also directly infers that there is no absolute truth about the nature or existence of absolute truth. It may or may not exist.

I say there is no absolute truth because the idea of absolute truth has no meaning. I understand your point, but something which is imaginary cannot possibly exist; i.e. we cannot define absolute truth, we don't know what it is! Saying that it may or may not exist is like saying 'gobblewobble' may or may not exist: what is gobblewobble? I just made up the word.

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

I say there is no absolute truth because the idea of absolute truth has no meaning. I understand your point, but something which is imaginary cannot possibly exist; i.e. we cannot define absolute truth, we don't know what it is! Saying that it may or may not exist is like saying 'gobblewobble' may or may not exist: what is gobblewobble? I just made up the word.

Nice response BrightNoon, thank you.

You know, I had a whole nice set of responses to what you're saying here. But as I typed on (and researched this and that) it occurred to me that we're very likely looking at what absolute truth is very differently. How do you see it? What is it to you?

Since I'm asking you, I'll offer mine. Please pardon the amateurish phrasing (I think it important to verbalize this in a way that makes sense to the most people as possible). I'd say that absolute truth is a statement of fact, or statements, regarding some <thing>, that is/are completely accurate; that is/are never false.

Is this similar or would you improve on this working definition some how?

Good stuff - Thanks

@Khethil,

Well, I basically agree. Nonetheless, here is my definition: Truth (absolute): that which cannot be proven to be in doubt. As every statement can be responded to with 'why?', for which there is no response that would not give rise to the same question, there is nothing that cannot be proven to be in doubt.

@MJA,

MJA;29670 wrote:

I can and I have stepped into the same river many more times than twice.
Sometimes twice in One day.
And that is absolutely and most certainly the truth!
The river is a great place to see the truth, I found it there myself.
I suggest if you don't know the truth, or are searching for the truth,
to go to the river and see for yourself.
The answers to everything can be found there too.
I should warn you though that It will take an open mind, One that is truly free.

=
MJA

I don't know about that . . .

I've spent a fair bit of time on the water. Been down various sections of the Colorado River a time or two, rafted the San Juan, capsized and had our 8-man Udisco oarframe completely destroyed on the Arkansas River by a 15-foot standing wave and was carried through about half a mile of of class III and IV rapids in nothing but a life jacket. If you want to experience "one-pointed meditation", really being in the moment, give that a shot sometime. I've never river kayaked, but I've spent a lot of time on a few lakes in one, and I know how to roll one if I flip over.

I fish when I can (but rarely catch anything . . . that's not why I go). Many days, when the weather is nice, I leave work with my lunch and head to the park where I sit under the trees and watch the stream go by and eat my sandwich and mandarin oranges and just let all of the useless crap that sometimes clutters my head sort of float away.

And then I go back to my job. And then I go back to life as it is, with all of its warts and briars, as well as its flowers and clear blue skies.

I keep going back to a line in The Razor's Edge where Bill Murray (I know . . . go figure, but he's good in it) asks, "Is it true? That it is easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain?"

At the risk of sounding cliched and superficial, truth is where you find it. Or, perhaps more accurately, your truth is found in the bits and pieces of it you find scattered about the world in which you live and which you try to assemble into something meaningful. But once you find that truth, you can never, ever, share it. No one would believe you anyway, and even if they did, they'd get it wrong . . . partly because it may still be incomplete, and partly because after a point your personal truth will become inexpressible, and partly because your truth of today may not be your truth of tomorrow.

It is easy to be a holy man on top of a mountain. Or by the side of a river.

Rivers have taught me a lot of things. I've even seen bits of what I think is truth floating by. But I can't be sure, because the river keeps changing, and what I thought was truth might only have been a leaf or a stick. So I keep going back.

I've also found bits of truth in rock climbing, in riding my motorcycle in heavy traffic, in listening to music, in reading, in watching a brushfire, in the sound of wind, in watching helplessly as friends self-destruct, in movies, in lightning, in a weed growing in a parking lot, in road-kill, in falling snow . . . in short, everywhere, if your eyes are open and your mind is not just open, but empty as well.

Rivers I've stood by and ridden on have taught me a lot of lessons, but never once, not once, have they said, "I am permanent."

But then again, maybe I'm not listening.

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

Well, I basically agree. Nonetheless, here is my definition: Truth (absolute): that which cannot be proven to be in doubt. As every statement can be responded to with 'why?', for which there is no response that would not give rise to the same question, there is nothing that cannot be proven to be in doubt.

This is good. I like the definition, but something in it alarms me.

If I'm thinking in one coherent line here, that 'alarm' is precisely what you state; that, in this vein, there'd be no truth. By this definition there's nothing we can count on (even practically) and that leaves me in a place where nothing can be believed in, posited or even rationally discussed; it impales itself on its own definition. Despite how I feel (and what I just said, haha), I can't categorically reject your definition <FATAL ERROR READING BRAIN - SYSTEM HALTED>

I'm going to have to think on this to clarify my own thought process, but I offer you my thanks!

Good stuff.

@Stormalv,

So I am looking at the ancient Greek passage from Plato's dialogue, the Cratylus, where he quotes Heraclitus (at 402a).

"panta koorei kai ouden mevei"

panta means everything
koorei means is on the move
ouden means nothing
menei means stays (as in an unchanged disposition)

So the line literally translates to "everything is on the move, nothing stays unchanged"

There are a million ways that the line can be adopted so it makes more sense in English, but the essence behind it is there is no absolute certainty to be found anywhere.

@TickTockMan,

"I don't know about that . . ."

Thanks TTM for your truthful response.
You claim to know only bits and pieces of truth, when it is your truth that you have written here yourself. Is it not all true? Are you not the whole truth?

I think you ask a very important question, as I have often asked:

Can One live truly, naturally, or universally as One in the everyday divided world, or is it only possible on a mountain top or along the river? Can One live truly in a world divided by untruth, by the uncertain probable measure's of science, by the faiths of religions and Gods that separate and destroy, by the untrue lessons of education that pull us so far apart? Can One live truly united in a world so terribly divided, so wrongfully and inequitably torn apart, by the untrue thoughts of mankind? Can One be truly free in a world confined by the walls of bigotry, and hatred, by the untruths of ourselves. Can mankind let go of his ultra ego and live truly and equally with nature, as nature, as the universe, in truth, united, as One?
Good question!

One truth:

One can only try.
For the sake of All, One must try.
To try is but a step along The Way.
Truth is the light that will guide One along The Right Way.
And untruth is certainly the other way.

I humbly suggest if you find pieces of light or a piece of truth along the river or on a mountain top, much like flecks of gold, The Mother Lode can't be far away. Go there and seek the truth as much as you can.
Oh, and if you are One so fortunate to find the truth, it is also right or good that One must share.
For the health of One is the health of All, as All is truly One!!!

=
MJA

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

So I am looking at the ancient Greek passage from Plato's dialogue, the Cratylus, where he quotes Heraclitus (at 402a).

"panta koorei kai ouden mevei"

panta means everything
koorei means is on the move
ouden means nothing
menei means stays (as in an unchanged disposition)

So the line literally translates to "everything is on the move, nothing stays unchanged"

There are a million ways that the line can be adopted so it makes more sense in English, but the essence behind it is there is no absolute certainty to be found anywhere.

Did you look here?

Nature absolutely and most certainly or truly changes infinitely or immeasurably all the time or all the times!

=
MJA

@Stormalv,

"panta koorei kai ouden mevei" : Not as simple as all that I'm afraid. If everything is at all times IN MOTION, it must have a starting point, and the starting point must be AT REST. Yes the RIDDLER is at work here, and with his usual DOUBLE MEANING. Rephrase : eveything that is at all times on the MOVE is at all times at REST. We do and do not step into the same river. We are and we are not...

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

This is good. I like the definition, but something in it alarms me.

If I'm thinking in one coherent line here, that 'alarm' is precisely what you state; that, in this vein, there'd be no truth. By this definition there's nothing we can count on (even practically) and that leaves me in a place where nothing can be believed in, posited or even rationally discussed; it impales itself on its own definition. Despite how I feel (and what I just said, haha), I can't categorically reject your definition <FATAL ERROR READING BRAIN - SYSTEM HALTED>

I'm going to have to think on this to clarify my own thought process, but I offer you my thanks!

Good stuff.

I was thinking about it some more and I realized that my first definition wasn't really conclusive. I'd llike to amend it. Truth: that which can be proven. As nothing can be proven, this thing is imaginary. Of course, here we encoutner of problem of 'proven to be what?' Obviously, the idea is that somehting is 'proven true.' So, this is tautological. I think this demonstrates the problem though; we cannot define truth or have absolute knowledge, because we don't know what those words mean! To determine what is true, we should have to know what truth is; we do not.

As far as practice is concerned, there is no need for truth or for such abstract reasoning. The fact that we cannot find anything that is undeniably true, or even define truth, demonstrates that it is in no way essential for our survival. To do anything, one has to make irrational judgements (I would argue all judgments are irrational); one has to halt the process of reasoning at some arbitrary point; in some cases, stupidity does this for a person; with others, this is a conscious decision. In my experience, it is best not only to admit but to revel in this. The idea that 'we should know the truth,' is nothing but a moral imperative, like any other.

@Stormalv,

There is definately a difference between "the truth" and truth. The former can never be understood, because you cannot formulate what the one truth is. Now the latter on the other hand is more of an activity that goes hand in hand with the concepts of freedom. Seeking truth (not the truth) requires freedom from falsities and the freedom to pursue truth through various perspectives.

@Stormalv,

[CENTER]Truth[/CENTER]

[CENTER]knowledge is thought[/CENTER]

[CENTER]education increases thought[/CENTER]

[CENTER]wisdom is truth[/CENTER]

[CENTER]enlightenment reduces thought[/CENTER]

[CENTER]to a single simple truth[/CENTER]

[CENTER]oneness or equality[/CENTER]

[CENTER]the single simple[/CENTER]

[CENTER]wisdom or[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Truth[/CENTER]

[CENTER]=[/CENTER]

[CENTER]MJA[/CENTER]

@MJA,

MJA;29823 wrote:

Thanks TTM for your truthful response.
You claim to know only bits and pieces of truth, when it is your truth that you have written here yourself. Is it not all true? Are you not the whole truth?

I wouldn't say that. I am to whole truth what perfectly round dice are to good fortune.

MJA;29823 wrote:

Can One live truly, naturally, or universally as One in the everyday divided world, or is it only possible on a mountain top or along the river? Can One live truly in a world divided by untruth, by the uncertain probable measure's of science, by the faiths of religions and Gods that separate and destroy, by the untrue lessons of education that pull us so far apart? Can One live truly united in a world so terribly divided, so wrongfully and inequitably torn apart, by the untrue thoughts of mankind? Can One be truly free in a world confined by the walls of bigotry, and hatred, by the untruths of ourselves. Can mankind let go of his ultra ego and live truly and equally with nature, as nature, as the universe, in truth, united, as One?
Good question!

Yeah, sure, I guess. But you have to live like you're already dead to really pull it off successfully. It's amazing what you can do when you have no choice.

MJA;29823 wrote:

Truth is the light that will guide One along The Right Way.
And untruth is certainly the other way.

There is also truth in darkness, and too much light can blind. Even the best
mountaineer will eventually be bones in a ravine before he can find the truth.

@Stormalv,

Truth is applesauce and also brightly colored shoes and...

@BrightNoon,

Okay, I can see the truth in applesauce, but brightly colored shoes? I'm afraid you are mistaken about that one. Unless of course you are referring to Elvis Presley's Blue Suede Shoes, which the Church of Elvis of Latter Day Hound Dogs admonishes against stepping upon as they are, indeed, vessels of truth.

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon;29686 wrote:

Saying that it may or may not exist is like saying 'gobblewobble' may or may not exist: what is gobblewobble? I just made up the word.

Gobblewobble . . . isn't that what happens when you chop off a turkey's head and its body gets up and runs around for a minute?

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon wrote:

The idea that 'we should know the truth,' is nothing but a moral imperative, like any other.

... but is the desire that 'we should know the truth' an evolutionary imperative, something that has survival value like any other adaptation? ...

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan wrote:

Gobblewobble . . . isn't that what happens when you chop off a turkey's head and its body gets up and runs around for a minute?

... nothing like a good whack to the funny bone! Laughing

... thanks for the laugh!

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

There is definately a difference between "the truth" and truth. The former can never be understood, because you cannot formulate what the one truth is. Now the latter on the other hand is more of an activity that goes hand in hand with the concepts of freedom. Seeking truth (not the truth) requires freedom from falsities and the freedom to pursue truth through various perspectives.

... logical truth being one of those perspectives ... any logical system begins with axioms - the so-called "undefined" terms ... time and space - we can take these as axioms in a logical system of truth, given that these two elements are fundamental to our experience of the world ... what truths can be built up from these axioms? ... are we building these truths upon a house of cards? ... or does the fact that we can at best define these axioms circularly - the one in terms of the other - indicate that we have hit upon irreducible ground truths?

@Anthrobus,

Anthrobus;29904 wrote:

If everything is at all times IN MOTION, it must have a starting point

Why?

Anthrobus;29904 wrote:

and the starting point must be AT REST.

Show me something at rest.

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