Metaphysics is Meaningless?

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jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 01:51 am
@markoos,
Metaphysics requires metacognition. Metacognition is knowing about knowing, specifically, understanding the way and by what your understanding is conditioned and conditional.

This means that you actually see and know that all of your conscious experience is actually something going on within your mind instead of being unknowingly immersed in it. It is possible to do this through meditation; in fact maybe this is what meditation is. And is not that big a deal, but you have to be really committed to understanding it. It is not something you can play with.

This ability to see through your own machinations is very roughly analogous to what Plato called 'noesis' which is the only way that metaphysics can really be known. I say 'very roughly' because the style of meditation I practice, which is Zen, is probably very different to what was taught and practiced by the Greek philosophers. However I am ordering a copy of Plotinus' Enneads, which might help me to understand that view a little better.

And it is perfectly true, without this kind of practice and understanding, metaphysics is entirely meaningless. But it is not meaningless because it has no value: it is meaningless because you completely fail to grasp it.
 
Humanity
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 02:47 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138550 wrote:
Metaphysics requires metacognition. Metacognition is knowing about knowing, specifically, understanding the way and by what your understanding is conditioned and conditional.

This means that you actually see and know that all of your conscious experience is actually something going on within your mind instead of being unknowingly immersed in it. It is possible to do this through meditation; in fact maybe this is what meditation is. And is not that big a deal, but you have to be really committed to understanding it. It is not something you can play with.

This ability to see through your own machinations is very roughly analogous to what Plato called 'noesis' which is the only way that metaphysics can really be known. I say 'very roughly' because the style of meditation I practice, which is Zen, is probably very different to what was taught and practiced by the Greek philosophers. However I am ordering a copy of Plotinus' Enneads, which might help me to understand that view a little better.

And it is perfectly true, without this kind of practice and understanding, metaphysics is entirely meaningless. But it is not meaningless because it has no value: it is meaningless because you completely fail to grasp it.
As far as i know, Zen proper do not focus on 'Metaphysics' as it is conventionally understood and with its central core on ontology. i.e.

wiki wrote:

ontology deals with questions concerning what entities exist or can be said to exist, and how such entities can be grouped, related within a hierarchy, and subdivided according to similarities and differences.
The Zen concepts of 'dependent origination', 'anatta', 'emptiness', 'nothingness', etc., do not blend well with ontology.

Preferably, i would not want to associate and contaminate Zen proper with metaphysics.
If I must, then, i will qualify exactly what is Zen metaphysics is and exclude.

There are Buddhist sects that deal with metaphysics but they are not the norm and these metaphysics do not conform to the central teachings of the Buddha.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 03:24 am
@markoos,
What you are saying is quite true, in many respects. However, my attention was drawn to the connection between Buddhist thought and Western metaphysics through several sources.

One is the early translations of various Tibetan texts by W.Y. Evanz Wentz such as The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation. The forward quotes at length from Plotinus and compares texts from both sources. Secondly I have been reading from a text called The Shape of Ancient Thought by Thomas McEvilly. This book has extensive comparisons between various aspects of Platonism and ancient Indian philosophy, including Buddhism. It theorizes that there was substantial contact between the two traditions via the Silk Route and says that some pre-Socratic schools, particularly Skepticism, were very much influenced by Buddhism.

I believe that many of the metaphysical concepts you are referring to are more Aristotlean than Platonic, which is actually quite proper, as the term 'metaphysics' itself comes from Aristotleanism, as is well known. In some ways what we now know as metaphysics is Platonism, as critiqued by Aristotle.

Nevertheless, I still believe that the Zen intuition has something in common with aspects of Western metaphysics, although as you say, the comparison must be drawn carefully. That is why I used the term 'rough analogy'. But at least both schools are very much aware of the nature and limitations of the ordinary worldly outlook which nowadays most people assume is the sole reality.

---------- Post added 03-11-2010 at 08:32 PM ----------

God, Zen and the Intuition of Being
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 07:15 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138550 wrote:

But it is not meaningless because it has no value: it is meaningless because you completely fail to grasp it.



You might be right. But as an argument, what you wrote is highly suspect.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 05:27 pm
@markoos,
I am not much interested in arguments, except for as a means of 'sharpening the sword'. Metaphysics is a matter of changing your frequency, but you have to be up for it. Not many are.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 07:19 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138755 wrote:
I am not much interested in arguments, except for as a means of 'sharpening the sword'. Metaphysics is a matter of changing your frequency, but you have to be up for it. Not many are.


What sword is that? What frequency is that? (Sorry, but as you know, I am not good at metaphors). But if you are not much interested in arguments, then how can you be much interested in philosophy?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 08:05 pm
@markoos,
Let's speak hypothetically here.

The topic of metaphysics is more 'theosophical' that 'philosophical' as the modern world understands it. (Theosophy: noun - any of various forms of philosophical or religious thought based on a mystical insight into the divine nature.)

Sword: metaphor for sharpening one's views through debate and argumentation.

Frequency: metaphor for 'level of consciousness'.

Metaphysics says that reality is heirarchical and that different levels of awareness correspond with different levels of reality. In the view of traditional metaphysics, the hoi polloi (Greek) or the hylectic (gnostic) - in short, 'the man in the street' - is only conscious on the level of the material intelligence and accordingly only discerns material realities. Through the philosophical 'ascent' which is the subject of the philosophical praxis the higher levels of the 'celestial heirarchy' or heirophany gradually become more clear.

This is not a religious outlook, in the sense of 'accepting a creed on faith and believing in it without question'. It is not scientific, which is the acceptance that reality is only what can be described in objective terms. It is not subjective because it is not something particular to the individual. It is not objective because it is not materially visible. In the neoplatonist idiom, it is the transcendental intuition of the supreme ordering principle (logos) by the active intellect (nous). This is the real nature and scope of metaphysics, as articulated by, for example, Plotinus.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 08:42 pm
@prothero,
prothero;138366 wrote:
On the contrary.
Metaphysics is how we build more complete and hopefully coherent worldviews. We all engage in it and it is how we impart meaning to our worlds. Values and aesthetics are always a form of engaging in metaphysics not physics. You should not ignore science and physics in constructing a worldview but they alone allow the construction of only parital and incomplete worldviews or guides to living well.

We can only build that complete and coherent world view by supplying the missing pieces with faith, so the whole mess falls... I would rather have a incomplete view, and incoherent if that is what life hands me...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 08:54 pm
@Fido,
Fido;138814 wrote:
We can only build that complete and coherent world view by supplying the missing pieces with faith.


And that is the difference between metaphysics and religion. It is true that over the centuries, they became fused into one corpus of 'traditional philosophy' but if you trace it back to Plato and Plotinus, you will find that 'faith' barely plays a role in it. In fact Plotinus was fiercely critical of early Christianity, and Augustine, who was strongly drawn to Plotinus, had to re-interpret a great deal of Plotinus because of its heterodoxy from the Christian viewpoint (i.e. Plotinus was close to heretical).

In short - attaining metaphysical knowledge is not a matter of 'having faith'.
 
Humanity
 
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2010 12:15 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138563 wrote:
What you are saying is quite true, in many respects. However, my attention was drawn to the connection between Buddhist thought and Western metaphysics through several sources.

One is the early translations of various Tibetan texts by W.Y. Evanz Wentz such as The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation. The forward quotes at length from Plotinus and compares texts from both sources. Secondly I have been reading from a text called The Shape of Ancient Thought by Thomas McEvilly. This book has extensive comparisons between various aspects of Platonism and ancient Indian philosophy, including Buddhism. It theorizes that there was substantial contact between the two traditions via the Silk Route and says that some pre-Socratic schools, particularly Skepticism, were very much influenced by Buddhism.

I believe that many of the metaphysical concepts you are referring to are more Aristotlean than Platonic, which is actually quite proper, as the term 'metaphysics' itself comes from Aristotleanism, as is well known. In some ways what we now know as metaphysics is Platonism, as critiqued by Aristotle.

Nevertheless, I still believe that the Zen intuition has something in common with aspects of Western metaphysics, although as you say, the comparison must be drawn carefully. That is why I used the term 'rough analogy'. But at least both schools are very much aware of the nature and limitations of the ordinary worldly outlook which nowadays most people assume is the sole reality.

---------- Post added 03-11-2010 at 08:32 PM ----------

I have just watched the video on 'The Shape of Ancient Thought' by Thomas McEvilly.
It is very likely that the Greek, Mesopotamia and Indian civilizations did interact amongst each other since they are all connected by big land mass and bridges.
McEvilly mentioned that the Indians initially influenced the Greeks and subsequently, the Greek (Alexandrian) re-influenced the Indians.

I agree that metaphysics generally refer to whatever that is beyond physics and the physical.
Personally, I would prefer to associate metaphysics with its core focus, i.e. ontology.
As such, imo, i would associate the Greeks and Hinduism with metaphysics but not Buddhism with metaphysics.
imo, the Buddha introduced his teaching with intention to steer clear from the Hindu metaphysics (ontology) of his day.

imo, this is not a big issue as long as we define our context.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2010 12:39 am
@markoos,
I very much appreciate your comments and perspective. I agree that recognizing the differences as well as the similarities in these traditions is important and understand the shortcomings of syncretism. And I agree with your point about the Buddhist attitude to ontology. The reason why Buddhism in particular has been of great influence on me (and others) is because the traditional teaching, which is very much consigned to history in the Western world, is still alive and kicking (and even re-inventing itself.) So it is has given me a 'traditional-spiritual' perspective which despite its differences, illustrates something very important about the Greek philosophy, which is that it requires 'metanoia' or a change in the nature of mind, to understand it properly. This is a challenge for the typical modern outlook which likes to hold everything at arm's length, so to speak. Its actual import can only be understood by really engaging with it.

(If that McEvilly video is on Youtube, I might suggest it as an upload for the Videos section.)
 
Humanity
 
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2010 01:05 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138874 wrote:
I very much appreciate your comments and perspective. I agree that recognizing the differences as well as the similarities in these traditions is important and understand the shortcomings of syncretism. And I agree with your point about the Buddhist attitude to ontology. The reason why Buddhism in particular has been of great influence on me (and others) is because the traditional teaching, which is very much consigned to history in the Western world, is still alive and kicking (and even re-inventing itself.) So it is has given me a 'traditional-spiritual' perspective which despite its differences, illustrates something very important about the Greek philosophy, which is that it requires 'metanoia' or a change in the nature of mind, to understand it properly. This is a challenge for the typical modern outlook which likes to hold everything at arm's length, so to speak. Its actual import can only be understood by really engaging with it.

(If that McEvilly video is on Youtube, I might suggest it as an upload for the Videos section.)
It is on Google Videos, i.e.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4553155406381622401#

I am not a Buddhist per-se, but the core of my theorectical and practical philosophy is heavily inclined toward Buddhist philosophy.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 01:33 am
@markoos,
Perhaps this question is relevant in the consideration of metaphysics.

The definition of substance:
Quote:
Substance, the first of Aristotle's categories, signifies being as existing in and by itself, and serving as a subject or basis for accidents and accidental changes.


Now I do wonder whether, prior to Aristotle's thought, there was any similar notion of 'substance' for example in Plato or in the pre-socratics. I am very doubtful whether substance, conceived in this way, actually does correspond to anything; whereas I do believe that the Ideas of Plato are real.

I am inclined to believe that the notion of substance was one of the ways in which metaphysics went fundamentally astray. It think it might have been what was later to have been understood as a reification.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:44 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;139495 wrote:
Perhaps this question is relevant in the consideration of metaphysics.

The definition of substance:

Now I do wonder whether, prior to Aristotle's thought, there was any similar notion of 'substance' for example in Plato or in the pre-socratics. I am very doubtful whether substance, conceived in this way, actually does correspond to anything; whereas I do believe that the Ideas of Plato are real.

I am inclined to believe that the notion of substance was one of the ways in which metaphysics went fundamentally astray. It think it might have been what was later to have been understood as a reification.


It is quite surprising how really anti-metaphysical you have become. You are exactly right. Locke (with his description of substance as, "something, I know not what") and Berkeley with his devastating critique of material substance, and finally David Hume with his dismissal of substance as a meaningless idea, is the path you also have taken.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 03:20 pm
@markoos,
I believe that metaphysics is still meaningful, but the idea of 'substance' is where it went astray. But then, Buddhist philosophers have never accepted such an idea, but they also reject materialism. So, time to do some more reading......
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 09:47 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;138817 wrote:
And that is the difference between metaphysics and religion. It is true that over the centuries, they became fused into one corpus of 'traditional philosophy' but if you trace it back to Plato and Plotinus, you will find that 'faith' barely plays a role in it. In fact Plotinus was fiercely critical of early Christianity, and Augustine, who was strongly drawn to Plotinus, had to re-interpret a great deal of Plotinus because of its heterodoxy from the Christian viewpoint (i.e. Plotinus was close to heretical).

In short - attaining metaphysical knowledge is not a matter of 'having faith'.

I must disagree, if only for the belief widely held it seems that one can have knowledge that cannot be accounted for; A'priori.. It is rubish...And you must admit, that it has found its way into out thoughts and institutions, as when we say all men are created equal... We are not created at all, and this presumption of a creator does nothing to ensure our equality...It is certainly not a creditable argument for equality and so, no one accepts it, even while most people say it...Meta physics was called metaphysic because of its placement in the books of Aristotle...Can you say what Aristotle called it; because I cannot, but I understand the word was closer in meaning to spiritual knowledge...
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:00 pm
@markoos,
In the books of Aristotle, it was called that because one of the editors of the work placed it after the books on physics, therefore 'after physics' - me ta physica. Or so I believe. But they are the books dealing with the nature of being, definition of first principles, and so on.

I don't think it is rubbish at all. There are many different schools of thought and styles of understanding in ancient and medieval philosophy. A lot of people - most people, I think - will just sweep metaphysics into the corner with religion generally as something that 'just has to be believed'. It isn't so. If you seriously engage with the ancients, their arguments are still profound and meaningful. I think they went seriously astray in some particulars - this idea of 'substance' being a very major one. But in other respects, they have a great deal to teach us still, if you are willing to study them. Because, after all, in the context of this subject, a few millenia don't add up to much.

One thing I am acutely aware of in this Forum is how much more critical everyone is of other times and other philosophies, than they are of our secular modernism. In fact they don't even realise that this is how they think, or why they think this way. To them it is just 'normal', but in the eyes of many cultures, what modern Westerners think is normal, is exceeding strange.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:29 am
@markoos,
Jeeprs;
If it were possible that other people in other times knew the problem, and had the solution to what are essentially moral issues that confronted them as they now confront us, then it is certain the good they sought would by now be obvious, and it is anything but... So while we look at the ancients for examples of the well lived life, or for a few good insights we can count on them for little more, and must find the answers we seek within ourselves... We learn from their mistakes, which were many, and not all from the want of technology or method... And we can certainly take a lesson from them, that no ones vision is completely free of prejudice, and metaphysics is just one such prejudice wrapped up in a neat package... Consider that people do not universally believe in magic because it is reasonable to the educated, but because it was once reasonable to all in their infancy who without knowledge still sought explanation...The explanations of the past do not serve the present moment, and did not serve those people in their days...
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 04:09 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;139789 wrote:
In the books of Aristotle, it was called that because one of the editors of the work placed it after the books on physics, therefore 'after physics' - me ta physica. Or so I believe. But they are the books dealing with the nature of being, definition of first principles, and so on.


Here it is again:

Quote:
The word 'metaphysics' is derived from a collective title of the fourteen books by Aristotle that we currently think of as making up "Aristotle's Metaphysics." Aristotle himself did not know the word. (He had four names for the branch of philosophy that is the subject-matter of Metaphysics: 'first philosophy', 'first science', 'wisdom', and 'theology'.) At least one hundred years after Aristotle's death, an editor of his works (in all probability, Andronicus of Rhodes) entitled those fourteen books "Ta meta ta phusika"-"the after the physicals" or "the ones after the physical ones"-, the "physical ones" being the books contained in what we now call Aristotle's Physics. The title was probably meant to warn students of Aristotle's philosophy that they should attempt Metaphysics only after they had mastered "the physical ones," the books about nature or the natural world-that is to say, about change, for change is the defining feature of the natural world.

This is the probable meaning of the title because Metaphysics is about things that do not change. In one place, Aristotle identifies the subject-matter of first philosophy as "being as such," and, in another, as "first causes." It is a nice-and vexed-question what the connection between these two definitions is. Perhaps this is the answer: The unchanging first causes have nothing but being in common with the mutable things they cause-like us and the objects of our experience, they are, and there the resemblance ceases. (For a detailed and informative recent guide to Aristotle's Metaphysics, see Politis (2004).)

Politis, Vasilis (2004): Aristotle and the Metaphysics. London and New York: Routledge.

Source: Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
 
StochasticBeauty
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 04:30 pm
@Khethil,
I think that metaphysics has had many productive byproducts even if they are used as jokes by Woody Allen.

Metaphysics shapes our subjective views of reality. For example I would have to say that the endless curiousity found amongst many (scientists especially) was paved by the *seminal* thoughts of metaphysics.

Metaphysics is like spirituality without the *culture* that other holistic followings have.
 
 

 
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