Is conflict intrinsic to existence?

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richrf
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 10:39 am
Hi all,

The following fragment is attributed to Heraclitus:

It is necessary to know that conflict is universal and that strife is right, and all things happen through strife and necessity.

This statement echos the play between the Yin and Yang of Daoism, which creates Qi (energy) and the thesis, antithesis of Hegel which creates the synthesis (movement).

I came to a similar conclusion many years ago. That movement (i.e. evolution) is created by conflict and tension between minds (Yi in Chinese metaphysics). For without conflict, everything is without movement and without life.

So, with that said, do you believe that conflict is intrinsic to the universe and to life? If so, how do you deal with it? If not, how do think the universe would be without conflict of any sort?

Thanks.

Rich
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 02:31 pm
@richrf,
Instead of the word "conflict" , perhaps use "challenge".

That way we know know that when we overcome a challenge, we have bettered ourselves in some way.

I guess challenges to humanity is like the hammer for the sword, it makes us sharp and tough.

I cant imagien a universe without challenges, in the sense of person ones, such as survival. It would make life quite meaningless.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 03:03 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;93393 wrote:
I cant imagien a universe without challenges, in the sense of person ones, such as survival. It would make life quite meaningless.


Yeah, this is how I feel about an after life. With no challenge that existence would also be meaningless. It is this life that we have, with its challenges, it's finite opportunities that make it have value.

If you have everything you ever want or desire for ever it would cheapen those things very quickly.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 07:41 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;93393 wrote:
Instead of the word "conflict" , perhaps use "challenge".

That way we know know that when we overcome a challenge, we have bettered ourselves in some way.

I guess challenges to humanity is like the hammer for the sword, it makes us sharp and tough.

I cant imagien a universe without challenges, in the sense of person ones, such as survival. It would make life quite meaningless.


Thanks ahmedjh.

I personally have observed that conflict in the very real sense is everywhere - some stronger than others. And I think it is difficult to run away from it. As far back as history exists, there has been terrible conflict and well as not so terrible. But it seems to be everywhere.

Now, some people believe that the natural order is peace. But I, and other authors such as Heraclitus say no, the natural order is conflict. It may be hard to swallow, but I found that once I accepted conflict as natural, I became less frustrated looking for peace which seems to be unattainable.

Rich

---------- Post added 09-24-2009 at 08:42 PM ----------

Krumple;93405 wrote:
Yeah, this is how I feel about an after life. With no challenge that existence would also be meaningless. It is this life that we have, with its challenges, it's finite opportunities that make it have value.

If you have everything you ever want or desire for ever it would cheapen those things very quickly.


But how about real conflict? Do you find that inevitable in life? Is it the motivator? I think it is.

Rich
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 08:19 pm
@richrf,
richrf;93331 wrote:
Hi all,

The following fragment is attributed to Heraclitus:

It is necessary to know that conflict is universal and that strife is right, and all things happen through strife and necessity.

This statement echos the play between the Yin and Yang of Daoism, which creates Qi (energy) and the thesis, antithesis of Hegel which creates the synthesis (movement).

I came to a similar conclusion many years ago. That movement (i.e. evolution) is created by conflict and tension between minds (Yi in Chinese metaphysics). For without conflict, everything is without movement and without life.

So, with that said, do you believe that conflict is intrinsic to the universe and to life? If so, how do you deal with it? If not, how do think the universe would be without conflict of any sort?

Thanks.

Rich


Heraclitus continues to be a guiding light through the muck of contemporary materialistic philosophy.

As for the other examples you cite:

We extract this contradictory "states" out of the motion (flux), to describe its motion toward completion. It is like an arrow for the mind. The flux can be described as the tension between non-being becoming being, but we must yield that to describe it in this way is to once again deposit it into Man's reason, or his unique way of categorizing the flux. Man's reasoning is currently in a state of linear cognition, which is why such binary black-white dichotomies drive his reasoning.

This is why Man alone (whose reason is currently in a state of linear-cognition) applies or posits a linear temporal relationship between phenomena. Time itself, however, does not exist in this common sense of past-present-future. Once this linear temporal reasoning has been abolished, all appearance of "chaos" disappears from systems operating on non-linear dynamics. It is only chaotic by our current method of thinking (linear), because it defies our current method of thinking. This is why the Intellect may be initially resistant to it--the Intellect resists that which it cannot grasp.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 08:23 pm
@rhinogrey,
rhinogrey;93447 wrote:
It is only chaotic by our current method of thinking (linear), because it defies our current method of thinking. This is why the Intellect may be initially resistant to it--the Intellect resists that which it cannot grasp.


So, given your perspective, how do you deal with conflict when you are involved with it or observe it? What are your thoughts or actions?

Rich
 
NoOne phil
 
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2009 02:03 pm
@richrf,
richrf;93331 wrote:
So, with that said, do you believe that conflict is intrinsic to the universe and to life? If so, how do you deal with it?

Thanks.

Rich


I always have a hard time with ideas so grand. They seem beyond my comprehension. So, what I do, is break them down into their elements and examine the elements piece by piece. A thing is either a member of a set or it is not. If it is a member of a set, is it part or whole? So, is conflict a part of the universe? certainly. Is it a thing or a form or a material difference? Conflict is the difference between two boundaries- For example, you and I. So, the whole thing would be the terms, you and I, and the difference called conflict. Of this thing, niether you, nor I nor the confilct in of themselves is a thing. No real mystery. Conflict could not exist by iself as a thing. It needs terms, that which we say define, or create the borders of the conflict.

Now, do we deal with the conflict or is the deal of the conflict the difference between you and I?

Oh, I am so confused.

Plato said it correctly, if one cannot distinguish between a thing, a things form, and a things material difference, it is because the mind is not yet functional. Plato used metaphor of course (absolute beauty), and I did not. This is true of any environmental acquisition system. It is not functioning when it can not even distinguish between these three. It cannot abstract from a thing, if it does not know a thing. If it does not abstract a things form, or its material difference, it is not functioning.

However, one might actually pursue the investigation of "the conflict of the conflict" and end up getting Knighted, Like Bertrand Russell. After all, a Theory of Types is a good way to use gibberish to ones popularity!
j.c.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2009 06:25 pm
@NoOne phil,
NoOne;93776 wrote:


However, one might actually pursue the investigation of "the conflict of the conflict" and end up getting Knighted, Like Bertrand Russell. After all, a Theory of Types is a good way to use gibberish to ones popularity!
j.c.


Yes, everyone observes it and understands it in their own way. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

Rich
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 05:43 pm
@richrf,
Conflict is intrinsic to life. Harmony is intrinsic to existence.
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 07:40 pm
@Shlomo,
Shlomo;94327 wrote:
Conflict is intrinsic to life. Harmony is intrinsic to existence.


I would say it is a thought that is well worth considering. Thanks!

Rich
 
Absolution phil
 
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 09:02 am
@richrf,
Conflict is intrinsic to life as debates are seemingly irresolvable. This is a modern problem in philosophy as there has been no widely accepted solution to resolve debates without begging the question on one side or both in a debate. Because of this seeming irresolvability people are left with differing knowledge and no way to resolve conflicts with other knowledge in a logical fashion (accept maybe to undergo an admission of unknowing but that leaves them with less knowledge instead of gained knowledge).
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:33 am
@Absolution phil,
Absolution;94404 wrote:
Conflict is intrinsic to life as debates are seemingly irresolvable. This is a modern problem in philosophy as there has been no widely accepted solution to resolve debates without begging the question on one side or both in a debate. Because of this seeming irresolvability people are left with differing knowledge and no way to resolve conflicts with other knowledge in a logical fashion (accept maybe to undergo an admission of unknowing but that leaves them with less knowledge instead of gained knowledge).


Thanks Absolution.

And I possibly would go one step further, that conflict of all types is the way the universe changes itself.

Rich
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 01:01 pm
@richrf,
Conflict certainly does seem to be intrinsic to philosophical issues. I ran across this from Descartes' Rules for the Direction of the Mind, Discourse on Method the other day:
[INDENT] "I shall not say anything about Philosophy, but that, seeing that it has been cultivated for many centuries by the best minds that have ever lived, and that nevertheless no single thing is to be found in it which is not subject of dispute, and in consequence which is not dubious...."

[/INDENT]Though a product of a specific context, time and mind-set, I thought it nonetheless apt.

Thanks
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Mon 12 Oct, 2009 09:59 pm
@richrf,
I think words like conflict, change, struggle-for-dominance, will-to-power, all adequately describe the basic character of reality. Inequalties of power develop amoung systems, and are expressed by movement, 'war.' And then a new equilibrium is imposed by the 'victor,' for a while: i.e. until the next inequality develops. A more concrete example of this is entropy versus complexity.
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 03:16 am
@BrightNoon,
richrf;93331 wrote:
Hi all,
The following fragment is attributed to Heraclitus:
It is necessary to know that conflict is universal and that strife is right, and all things happen through strife and necessity.
Rich


Does the 'universal' word mean and limit itself to the human world.


ahmedjbh;93393 wrote:
Instead of the word "conflict" , perhaps use "challenge". That way we know know that when we overcome a challenge, we have bettered ourselves in some way.


How have we bettered ourselves, by producing nuclear-triggered bomb?
Challenge is very much anthropocentric.


Shlomo;94327 wrote:
Conflict is intrinsic to life. Harmony is intrinsic to existence.


Like Rich has referred, it is the Ying-Yang theory of life. But Conflict & Harmony is intrinsic to life and not to existence. Causation is intrinsic to existence. Existence is cause and effect. Therefore, harmony is not essential for existence.


BrightNoon;97079 wrote:
I think words like conflict, change, struggle-for-dominance, will-to-power, all adequately describe the basic character of reality. Inequalties of power develop amoung systems, and are expressed by movement, 'war.' And then a new equilibrium is imposed by the 'victor,' for a while: i.e. until the next inequality develops. A more concrete example of this is entropy versus complexity.


In the human context, i agree with this observation. Only that, all this is cyclic. Complexity leads to conflict; conflict will lead to neutrality; neutrality will lead to harmony; harmony will lead to chaos, ; chaos will lead to complexity; :whistling: Thanks
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Tue 13 Oct, 2009 01:21 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Jack,
To describe reality as 'conflict' or 'war' or 'will-to-power' does indeed borrow anthropogenic concepts, more at home in the familiar world of social relations. But, realize that any terms which could be applied to reality, or to anything else, i.e. any term or concept which has any meaning to we humans, is anthropogenic: i.e. founded in experience and familiar life. Complexity, entropy, neutrality are less obviously so because they are more abstract, but they are abstractions from our own experiences: otherwise, they would not mean anything to us at all.
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Wed 14 Oct, 2009 09:23 am
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;97257 wrote:
Jack,
But, realize that any terms which could be applied to reality, or to anything else, i.e. any term or concept which has any meaning to we humans, is anthropogenic: i.e. founded in experience and familiar life..



Hi Bright,

While I agree with your definition and extent of the usage of the term anthropogenic, I would like to remind you that the term used by me was anthropocentric. It was in the context of the observation made by one of the posters suggesting the aplication of the concept-term called 'challenge'. Challenge is indubitably an anthropocentric word-concept.

needless to say, all concept and words (written) are anthropogenic.


BrightNoon;97257 wrote:
Complexity, entropy, neutrality are less obviously so because they are more abstract, but they are abstractions from our own experiences: otherwise, they would not mean anything to us at all.


So true........
 
manfred
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:50 pm
@Jackofalltrades phil,
Is conflict intrinsic to existence?
Yes.
Why?
Because.
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 02:33 am
@richrf,
Human existence differs from the rest of the nature in that it intrinsically includes virtue and evil. Those two things beget the conflict. Without that conflict we would not be human.
 
chad3006
 
Reply Fri 6 Nov, 2009 11:25 am
@richrf,
Are there any distinctions between real conflict (challenges) and unreal conflict (drama)?
 
 

 
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