What's the difference between causation and correlation?

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Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:28 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72291 wrote:
You really do not think that mail in the letter box is good evidence that a mailman was there to put the letters into the letter box?


There's no mention of causation. So, what's the relevance?

If you're asking "do letters in a mailbox correlate to the appearance of a mailman" then the answer is "yes". If you're asking about causes then I see no causes. I've seen a mailman put letters in a mailbox but I've never seen a mailman or anyone else cause anything.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:33 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72296 wrote:
There's no mention of causation. So, what's the relevance?

If you're asking "do letters in a mailbox correlate to the appearance of a mailman" then the answer is "yes". If you're asking about causes then I see no causes. I've seen a mailman put letters in a mailbox but I've never seen a mailman or anyone else cause anything.



The mailman caused the letters to be placed into the mailbox. And you saw him do exactly that. And, when you don't see him do that because he comes before you come home, you know that presence of the letters in the mailbox was caused by the mailman's putting them into the mailbox. You observe the correlation; you infer the cause. (Are you saying there are no causes at all?) Even Hume did not say that.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72297 wrote:
The mailman caused the letters to be placed into the mailbox. And you saw him do exactly that. And, when you don't see him do that because he comes before you come home, you know that presence of the letters in the mailbox was caused by the mailman's putting them into the mailbox. You observe the correlation; you infer the cause. (Are you saying there are no causes at all?) Even Hume did not say that.


I see no causes. There might be causes but I have no evidence of them and neither do you. At least, none that you seem willing to offer.
 
ACB
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 08:53 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72302 wrote:
I see no causes. There might be causes but I have no evidence of them and neither do you. At least, none that you seem willing to offer.


I don't understand the difference between a mailman putting letters in a mailbox and causing them to be put in a mailbox. What precisely do you mean by 'cause'?

If you think a 'cause' would be something observable in addition to the act of inserting the letters, then I think you are making a category mistake.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:20 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72272 wrote:
There is evidence of correlation


... what, exactly, does this phrase mean? ... correlation is a statistical measure ... statistical measures are used as evidence for physical phenomena ... how can there be evidence for a measure that is used as evidence? ... perhaps what you mean to ask here is "what is the difference between causation and regularity"? ... or perhaps "causation and coincidence"?

If you believe in a non-deterministic world, the difference seems to be that causation can be attributed to a subset of the world's regularities, whereas coincidence can be attributed to the rest ... a metronome tocks after it ticks due to a motor that maintains this regularity; whereas the fact that the red reflecting off this fire engine is in phase with the red reflecting off that fire engine could be mere coincidence.

If you believe in a deterministic world, on the other hand, there seems to be no difference between causation and regularity, as all regularities can be traced back through the causal network to the ultimate cause: the Big Bang ... in other words, there's no such thing as coincidence in a deterministic world.
 
Ultracrepidarian
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:58 pm
@Satan phil,
There is something that I don't understand here, Satan. I'm certain you get this question a lot, so I hope you can help me. The thing I don't understand has to do with an idea of the world as being a series of random occurrences, one moment's happenings being entirely unrelated to the next except in chronological sequence. How could anyone believe this idea? It is difficult for me to imagine how such a person would think or do anything having reasoned that there is no reason to expect what was true for yesterday be true for today. It might be easy to find matching pairs of socks, you might get sick only when you want to, and drinking a case of wine might never lead to a hangover. I'd be anarchy, to say the least!
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 09:58 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72302 wrote:
I see no causes. There might be causes but I have no evidence of them and neither do you. At least, none that you seem willing to offer.



You think that if you don't "see causes" there is no evidence of them? You don't see electrons. You don't think there is any evidence of them either? Anyway, what would you expect to see if you saw causes? Little strings between events? What is it you do not see when you don't see causes?

The evidence of a causal relation between two kinds of events is, as I have pointed out several times, a constant correlation between those two kinds of events. Of course, we can then investigate and find out why there is that constant correlation, and then, we have further evidence of the causal relation.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 10:37 pm
@kennethamy,
ACB;72312 wrote:
What precisely do you mean by 'cause'?


A relationship between two events whereby the second event occurs as a necessary consequence of the first event. I see no necessary relationship between mailmen and mailboxes or anything else.

Ultracrepidarian;72333 wrote:
The thing I don't understand has to do with an idea of the world as being a series of random occurrences, one moment's happenings being entirely unrelated to the next except in chronological sequence. How could anyone believe this idea?


Randomness doesn't rule out regularities. If you flip a coin an infinite number of times you will hit upon a series of an infinite number of heads.

kennethamy;72334 wrote:
You think that if you don't "see causes" there is no evidence of them? You don't see electrons. You don't think there is any evidence of them either?


Let's not play word games. If the word "see" bothers you then replace it with "observe". We can observe electrons. It's not that hard.

kennethamy;72334 wrote:
Anyway, what would you expect to see if you saw causes? Little strings between events? What is it you do not see when you don't see causes?


I don't see any necessary relationships. I see flame applied to metal. I see glowing metal. I don't see any necessary relationship between the two.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 10:51 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72348 wrote:
A relationship between two events whereby the second event occurs as a necessary consequence of the first event. I see no necessary relationship between mailmen and mailboxes or anything else.



Randomness doesn't rule about regularities. If you flip a coin an infinite number of times you will hit upon a series of an infinite number of heads.



Let's not play word games. If the word "see" bothers you then replace it with "observe". We can observe electrons. It's not that hard.



I don't see any necessary relationships. I see flame applied to metal. I see glowing metal. I don't see any necessary relationship between the two.


What is a "necessary relationship". In at least one sense of that term, I agree, that as Hume pointed out, there is no necessary relation. The sense I mean is that there is no logically necessary relation between cause and effect. Which means that it is not logically impossible (or self-contradictory) for the cause to occur, and for the effect not to occur. So, I agree that there is no logically necessary "connection" as Hume said. But, that does not mean, of course, that there is no physically necessary connection. There is a physically necessary connection between two kinds of event if, and only if, it would be inconsistent with the laws of nature for the cause to occur, and the effect not to occur. Now, that, physical necessity, is different from logical necessity. And by pointing out that the connection between cause and effect is not logically necessary, you have not shown it is not physically necessary. So, as you can see, it is necessary to say in what sense of "necessary relation" you are denying that there is a necessary relation between cause and effect. Is it logically necessary relation? I agree there is no logically necessary relation. But I believe there is a physically necessary relation between cause and effect.

We can observe electrons? That is news to me.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 11:42 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72359 wrote:
There is a physically necessary connection between two kinds of event if, and only if, it would be inconsistent with the laws of nature for the cause to occur, and the effect not to occur.


If the laws of nature describe whatever occurs, how could anything happen that was inconsistent with them? It would be a tautology that nothing could happen that violated the laws since whatever happens determines the laws.

If copper conducts electricity then there's a law of nature that says copper conducts electricity. If it doesn't then there's a law of nature that says it doesn't. How could anything ever be violated?

I don't see evidence that anything at all is "physically necessary" and I'm not sure how you do either.
 
Ultracrepidarian
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 12:46 am
@Satan phil,
"Randomness doesn't rule out regularities. If you flip a coin an infinite number of times you will hit upon a series of an infinite number of heads."

hmm, I disagree. But I can't imagine what someone flipping a coin forever has to do with the question I had. I am asking why do you personally believe that when you put your foot on the brake pedal of your car, your car will stop as per usual. If there are no necessary physical connections and Event B is totally unrelated to Event A except in chronological sequence, it is like flipping a coin, yes? Is it random? Is there an equal probability that your car will stop or accelerate? If that is the case, what are the chances that your brake pedal will spontaneously combust? Or turn into a frog? or a thousand other things? Sure, the coin may be heads, tails, or maybe it will become a die when it strikes the ground with a picture of someone's long lost cat, Fluffy, on each side. Do you understand my dilemma?

---------- Post added at 01:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:46 AM ----------

Or as I think ACB has asked, how can there be "useful predictors" as opposed to "causes" if each event is the result of an independent flip of the coin?

Unless you believe as I do that there are connections between A&B that determine B.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 03:04 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72372 wrote:
If the laws of nature describe whatever occurs, how could anything happen that was inconsistent with them? It would be a tautology that nothing could happen that violated the laws since whatever happens determines the laws.

If copper conducts electricity then there's a law of nature that says copper conducts electricity. If it doesn't then there's a law of nature that says it doesn't. How could anything ever be violated?

I don't see evidence that anything at all is "physically necessary" and I'm not sure how you do either.


I don't know what you think I said, but what I said is that some events that are logically possible, would be physically impossible. For example, it would be logically possible for an object to move faster than the speed of light, since there is no contradiction in that supposition, but it would be physically impossible for an object to move faster than the speed of light, for that would be inconsistent with natural law. So, it is physically necessary that an object not move faster than the speed of light. It is also (to take another example) physically necessary that water freeze at the temperature of 0 centigrade (under normal conditions). And it is physically impossible for it not to do so. That is because unless it did so, it would be inconsistent with the laws of nature.

Scientists have a great deal of evidence that water physically must freeze at the temperature of 0 centigrade. They also know why that is true. And, if you have taken any chemistry in school you would know why it must be true too.

I did not say that any physical law of nature can be violated. I said it was logically possible for a physical law of nature to be violated. That is, violated without self-contradiction.
 
ACB
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 04:08 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72372 wrote:
If the laws of nature describe whatever occurs, how could anything happen that was inconsistent with them?


The laws of nature do not only describe what occurs; they also predict what will occur. Usually successfully. How can that be so, if past regularities give no reason to believe in future ones?

Quote:
If copper conducts electricity then there's a law of nature that says copper conducts electricity.


But how is it that we are able to generalise that "copper conducts electricity"? Why would you be unwilling to touch a piece of copper connected to a powerful electric circuit?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 07:56 am
@ACB,
ACB;72409 wrote:
The laws of nature do not only describe what occurs; they also predict what will occur. Usually successfully. How can that be so, if past regularities give no reason to believe in future ones?



But how is it that we are able to generalise that "copper conducts electricity"? Why would you be unwilling to touch a piece of copper connected to a powerful electric circuit?



And don't forget that most importantly, they explain what occurs. In fact, explanation is just the other side of the coin from prediction. Explanation "predicts" the past; and prediction "explains" the future. We cannot do the one without the other. The laws of nature do double duty.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 08:48 am
@Ultracrepidarian,
Ultracrepidarian;72379 wrote:
"Randomness doesn't rule out regularities. If you flip a coin an infinite number of times you will hit upon a series of an infinite number of heads."

hmm, I disagree.


Well, you're wrong.

Ultracrepidarian;72379 wrote:
I am asking why do you personally believe that when you put your foot on the brake pedal of your car, your car will stop as per usual.


It's useful to believe that things that worked in the past will work in the future. I've had success with stopping by applying brakes so I will continue to do so until it stops working.


kennethamy wrote:

For example, it would be logically possible for an object to move faster than the speed of light, since there is no contradiction in that supposition, but it would be physically impossible for an object to move faster than the speed of light, for that would be inconsistent with natural law.


How, exactly, do you know that it's physically impossible for anything to travel faster than light? How do you know anything is impossible?

"I doubt that 'trying and failing' will do the trick. After all, many times we try to do something, fail at it, and yet - for whatever reasons - do not conclude "I can't do it." (It happened to me recently. I was trying to install a new pump on a dishwasher and was having no success, indeed I was failing miserably. I stopped for a while, tried again, and succeeded.) I am absolutely convinced that there is no phenomenological, introspective, felt (call it what you will) difference whatsoever between failing to do something which is possible (e.g. installing a dishwasher pump) and failing to do something which necessitarians call 'nomically impossible', e.g. flapping my arms and flying.

What do I feel when I find that I repeatedly fail to do something? Disappointment, remorse, anger, sadness, annoyance, irritability, fury, etc. Do I experience (physical or nomological) impossibility? Not that I can tell. I would not know how to recognize it if I did. I can experience that I have not done what I wanted; that I have tried especially hard; etc. But I do not see that I have experienced that I cannot do it. I may say, "I can't do it." But I have not experienced anything more than failure." -Norman Swartz


ACB wrote:
The laws of nature do not only describe what occurs; they also predict what will occur. Usually successfully. How can that be so, if past regularities give no reason to believe in future ones?


That's an argument from ignorance. Just because you can't imagine how something could happen without X doesn't mean X is necessary.

ACB wrote:
But how is it that we are able to generalise that "copper conducts electricity"? Why would you be unwilling to touch a piece of copper connected to a powerful electric circuit?


All copper tested so far conducts electricity. While I may be skeptical that copper necessarily conducts electricity. I have no doubts that it's been known to. It's therefore pragmatically useful to assume that there is danger. Better safe than sorry, in other words. This, of course, proves little about causality and more about practical lives of mortal finite beings.
 
Dearhtead
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 09:09 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;68880 wrote:
Can anyone demonstrate that a cause is more than a mere correlation without engaging in this fallacy?



The cause is both an important past event and the final point of a perspective.
The correlation is both the close relation between this event and the cause of this event and the relation between the final point and its object.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 09:17 am
@Satan phil,
Satan;72450 wrote:
Well, you're wrong.



It's useful to believe that things that worked in the past will work in the future. I've had success with stopping by applying brakes so I will continue to do so until it stops working.




How, exactly, do you know that it's physically impossible for anything to travel faster than light? How do you know anything is impossible?

"I doubt that 'trying and failing' will do the trick. After all, many times we try to do something, fail at it, and yet - for whatever reasons - do not conclude "I can't do it." (It happened to me recently. I was trying to install a new pump on a dishwasher and was having no success, indeed I was failing miserably. I stopped for a while, tried again, and succeeded.) I am absolutely convinced that there is no phenomenological, introspective, felt (call it what you will) difference whatsoever between failing to do something which is possible (e.g. installing a dishwasher pump) and failing to do something which necessitarians call 'nomically impossible', e.g. flapping my arms and flying.

What do I feel when I find that I repeatedly fail to do something? Disappointment, remorse, anger, sadness, annoyance, irritability, fury, etc. Do I experience (physical or nomological) impossibility? Not that I can tell. I would not know how to recognize it if I did. I can experience that I have not done what I wanted; that I have tried especially hard; etc. But I do not see that I have experienced that I cannot do it. I may say, "I can't do it." But I have not experienced anything more than failure." -Norman Swartz




That's an argument from ignorance. Just because you can't imagine how something could happen without X doesn't mean X is necessary.



All copper tested so far conducts electricity. While I may be skeptical that copper necessarily conducts electricity. I have no doubts that it's been known to. It's therefore pragmatically useful to assume that there is danger. Better safe than sorry, in other words. This, of course, proves little about causality and more about practical lives of mortal finite beings.


How, exactly, do you know that it's physically impossible for anything to travel faster than light? How do you know anything is impossible?

Scientists tell me that according to the widely accepted theory of Special Relativity, it is physically impossible for any object to travel faster than light, since under that condition its mass would be zero. Many experiments have been made that confirm this theory, and this theory fits in with other things we know are true.

I know some things are physically impossible (not impossible) because of what I have read about science. I am, of course depending on the body of scientific knowledge.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 10:04 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72458 wrote:
I know some things are physically impossible (not impossible) because of what I have read about science. I am, of course depending on the body of scientific knowledge.


Well, then you shouldn't have any trouble showing me a scientific article from a journal or textbook that actually asserts something is physically impossible and also explains how to determine if something is physically impossible or not.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 03:06 pm
@Satan phil,
Satan;72467 wrote:
Well, then you shouldn't have any trouble showing me a scientific article from a journal or textbook that actually asserts something is physically impossible and also explains how to determine if something is physically impossible or not.



Don't you know that it is physically impossible for you to jump 300 feet into the air, or for you to walk two miles in two seconds? I hope I don't have to show you a scientific article to convince you of that. One way you can know it is to try to do those things, and ask others to do those things. You will find it is impossible for you to do those actions. Nothing mysterious about it. After you have tried to jump 300 feet into the air about 10 times, report back...after you have rested up.
 
Satan phil
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 04:37 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;72523 wrote:
One way you can know it is to try to do those things, and ask others to do those things.


"I doubt that 'trying and failing' will do the trick. After all, many times we try to do something, fail at it, and yet - for whatever reasons - do not conclude "I can't do it." (It happened to me recently. I was trying to install a new pump on a dishwasher and was having no success, indeed I was failing miserably. I stopped for a while, tried again, and succeeded.) I am absolutely convinced that there is no phenomenological, introspective, felt (call it what you will) difference whatsoever between failing to do something which is possible (e.g. installing a dishwasher pump) and failing to do something which necessitarians call 'nomically impossible', e.g. flapping my arms and flying.

What do I feel when I find that I repeatedly fail to do something? Disappointment, remorse, anger, sadness, annoyance, irritability, fury, etc. Do I experience (physical or nomological) impossibility? Not that I can tell. I would not know how to recognize it if I did. I can experience that I have not done what I wanted; that I have tried especially hard; etc. But I do not see that I have experienced that I cannot do it. I may say, "I can't do it." But I have not experienced anything more than failure." -Norman Swartz

What evidence do you have that we experience something more than failure?
 
 

 
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