Do we have control over our actions?

@VideCorSpoon,

A chemical response in the brain to an observed scenario is not "control". Even conscious decisions are manipulated by chemicals-you don't "choose" to want something or to do so. Neither do chemicals. Actions and response simply are.

@AtheistDeity,

AtheistDeity wrote:

A chemical response in the brain to an observed scenario is not "control". Even conscious decisions are manipulated by chemicals-you don't "choose" to want something or to do so. Neither do chemicals. Actions and response simply are.

That's what I said. You don't chose to want something. You chose to go against your wants. That is free-choice and that is something that Animals don't have. Animals only ever follow their desires. We have the ability to deny them.

@AtheistDeity,

AtheistDeity;26893 wrote:

A chemical response in the brain to an observed scenario is not "control". Even conscious decisions are manipulated by chemicals-you don't "choose" to want something or to do so. Neither do chemicals. Actions and response simply are.

Binyamin Tsadik;26914 wrote:

That's what I said. You don't chose to want something. You chose to go against your wants. That is free-choice and that is something that Animals don't have. Animals only ever follow their desires. We have the ability to deny them.

I'm having a difficult time following some of the logic here. But as I have noted elsewhere, I'm not very bright so it could just be me being thick-witted.

The way I am interpreting this statement is:

You have no choice in what you choose to want, but you do have choice in
choosing not to choose what you have no choice in wanting.

Surely I must be misinterpreting something along the way here . . . because this seems totally counter-intuitive.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan wrote:

I'm having a difficult time following some of the logic here. But as I have noted elsewhere, I'm not very bright so it could just be me being thick-witted.

The way I am interpreting this statement is:

You have no choice in what you choose to want, but you do have choice in
choosing not to choose what you have no choice in wanting.

Surely I must be misinterpreting something along the way here . . . because this seems totally counter-intuitive.

Don't think you're missing much, you just took the last quote... read the thread from the start.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

my postulate on identity as it pertains to free will:

in regards to a person making choices and directing ones own life, they refer to their own values and life experiences.

even if one did not start with a clean slate (had a inclination to be inquisitive, timid, outgoing etc.), one did not choose these dispositions or the influences to come.

therefore even if one does have a free will when making a choice to eat a piece of chocolate, or run a marathon, they did not create their self initially.

you can have anything that wasn't first given to you. lemme know what YOU think lol...

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik;27160 wrote:

Don't think you're missing much, you just took the last quote... read the thread from the start.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but I think I'm still unclear on the concept . . .

How can it be said that we have no control over what arises in us as a "want" on the one hand, but do have control to deny that "want" when it arises?

This seems like half an equation to me. Either we have complete control (whether we recognize it or not) or we don't.

To me that seems a bit like saying: "Due to circumstances and forces beyond my control, such as a random chemical reaction or a fluctuation in the quantum field of dancing electrons which makes up what I perceive both as my persona and the consensually agreed upon external universe, I have developed an uncontrollable desire to eat vanilla ice cream. However, as a thinking, self-aware sentient being I shall over-ride these otherwise uncontrollable external or internal factors and deny myself the pleasures of eating that vanilla ice cream with the assurance and peace of mind that comes with knowing the previously stated external factors could in no way also be responsible for my decision to deny myself the vanilla ice cream.

@TickTockMan,

To deny that want would be to incorporate the whole of human evolution. A human being is much like any other particular organism, were it not for the complexities of the brain-the unconscious sectors of the human brain is capable of storing every single thought, feeling, and experience in that organisms life time. So while one sudden desire from particular stimuli might arise, another would from human intelligence, contradicting the behavior. Being unconscious the human does not have control over this either. Human behavior is largely manipulated due to the very nature of our chemical complex that makes up our very presence, by the environmental affects, and experiences gained. Like a small cub would learn to hunt by watching its mother the human brain would constantly observe it's environment, creating logical assessments, and recollections to aid in response later on. To believe a human has "free will" is to say human beings somehow, by a possible mystical manipulation is consciously controlling the chemical reactions in it's body, and it's brain. To decide a response it to deside, any particular bodily function-they are all aimed at the same purpose, (survival) just located in different areas of the body. Or possibly to say a god or deity is controlling these functions, which would not really be free will at all.

@AtheistDeity,

AtheistDeity;27306 wrote:

To deny that want would be to incorporate the whole of human evolution. A human being is much like any other particular organism, were it not for the complexities of the brain-the unconscious sectors of the human brain is capable of storing every single thought, feeling, and experience in that organisms life time. So while one sudden desire from particular stimuli might arise, another would from human intelligence, contradicting the behavior. Being unconscious the human does not have control over this either. Human behavior is largely manipulated due to the very nature of our chemical complex that makes up our very presence, by the environmental affects, and experiences gained. Like a small cub would learn to hunt by watching its mother the human brain would constantly observe it's environment, creating logical assessments, and recollections to aid in response later on. To believe a human has "free will" is to say human beings somehow, by a possible mystical manipulation is consciously controlling the chemical reactions in it's body, and it's brain. To decide a response it to deside, any particular bodily function-they are all aimed at the same purpose, (survival) just located in different areas of the body. Or possibly to say a god or deity is controlling these functions, which would not really be free will at all.

Thanks AtheistDeity. You nailed what I was trying to say, but did it much better.

The question that always comes to my mind on the topic, however, is not simply about free will, but rather how to address personal responsibility in its absence.

Let's just say (for the sake of this particular forum discussion) that it has been proven beyond any doubt, with absolute certainty, empirically and beyond any further questioning, and universally agreed upon by scientists, philosophers of every school, and clergy/theologians of every world religion, that we do not have free will. None. Not a shred.

What then?

What do we do with that knowledge?

And where do all the lawyers go?

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

To me this is a ridiculous question and a ridiculous answer. If we cannot be accountable for our actions, then we cannot hold anyone responsible for anything.

You are wholly right and infallible in this answer.Nevertheless,if it is viewed from another side,in a divergent one,the person who had this doubt is also right.

Controlling sometimes cannot be happened,actions can be so superfluous or adverse that we cannot control.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;27328 wrote:

Let's just say (for the sake of this particular forum discussion) that it has been proven beyond any doubt, with absolute certainty, empirically and beyond any further questioning, and universally agreed upon by scientists, philosophers of every school, and clergy/theologians of every world religion, that we do not have free will. None. Not a shred.

What then?

What do we do with that knowledge?

Interesting premise. Smile

To tell you the truth, in that scenario I'd have to conclude that all the scientists and clergy in the world was crazy, or that I was. The reason is inherent in the question. You're asking: What should we choose to do if we have no choice? It doesn't have an answer because it's a nonsensical question.

I don't pretend to understand how human will works (or animal will for that matter), or how it can be "other than" the machine-like mechanisms of biology. But in this case experience has to over-ride any other rationalizations to the contrary, because I can not exist without making choices of the will.

@NeitherExtreme,

Nonsensical..? To assume that anything would change just because we realized something would be "nonsensical". Does the world change just because we learn something new about it?
The theory of free will is more like a religious theory than most realize. Neither have any actual proof, and are both products of some internal, satisfaction, or understanding pursuit. "God" has no physical or scientific presence, and neither does 'free will'. They are both creations purely in the imagination. It is a prominent trait of human nature to pursue responsibility, and praise-It is a survival trait, much like any other desire, or want. To say "What should we choose to do if we have no choice?" is remarkably like a religious person saying "Well, how could we be wrong if the bible tells us otherwise?" It is a circular argument at it's greatest. Should the entire world agree upon the fact that free will does not exist, life would go on as it always has-actions pursuing emotions, understandings, and satisfaction, ect. It is human nature-the nature of any living creature. As a matter of fact that is exactly why the entire world would never agree even should it be scientifically proven- it is a far larger priority for the brain to manipulate a body in such a way to pursue specific desires of that organism, and survival instincts than to seek understanding of a specific theory of a particular nature that their particular life, desires, and recollection has not set them up to pursue.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

A nameless member stated that we have no control over our actions, and that if we think that we do then it is our Ego talking.

To me this is a rediculous question and a rediculous answer. If we cannot be accountable for our actions, then we cannot hold anyone responsible for anything.

Binyamin Tsadik, Smile

Is it not true that if one does not have self control then one does not have control at all. I guess the question has to be considered in degrees, certainly I have control over my actions to others as an individual. Humanity on the other hand does not seem to have self control, many of the problems of the world would be solved with the self control of population growth, it is not even a topic of interest to humanity at large, kind of like standing in the middle of the road to watch the on coming truck that is to kill you.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;27328 wrote:

The question that always comes to my mind on the topic, however, is not simply about free will, but rather how to address personal responsibility in its absence.

Let's just say (for the sake of this particular forum discussion) that it has been proven beyond any doubt, with absolute certainty, empirically and beyond any further questioning, and universally agreed upon by scientists, philosophers of every school, and clergy/theologians of every world religion, that we do not have free will. None. Not a shred.

NeitherExtreme;27373 wrote:

Interesting premise. :)The reason is inherent in the question. You're asking: What should we choose to do if we have no choice? It doesn't have an answer because it's a nonsensical question.

I realize the nonsensical nature of the premise, but this isn't really what I was asking. My question was along the lines of what would happen to human civilization en masse if it were suddenly revealed that free will does not exist.

I'm not looking for answers. I'm looking for thoughts.

@TickTockMan,

If the populace recognized that "free will" did not in fact exist, nothing would happen. The human mind would keep functioning, and continue observing the such procession of existence. If it did exist, nothing would "happen" then either. Pursuing emotional, primal, internal urges are far higher on the list of human priorities. People enjoy seeing harmful, "unjust" individuals go to jail, and lawyers would keep their jobs, as would policemen, judges, and government officials. Free will or not it is still in many a human's nature, as it already is now, to affect the environment in the most positive way possible, and to expunge that which poses any threat. Just one more scientific fact the scientists cannot get the majority of the populace to listen to, or conform their behavior in a positive way based upon. (i.e. global warming, animal extinction, air pollution, smoking, nuclear energy, land fills, ect). Will you continue asking circular questions, or do you have actual scientific proof that free will actually exists?

@AtheistDeity,

Hi AtheistDeity.

AtheistDeity;27386 wrote:

Nonsensical..? To assume that anything would change just because we realized something would be "nonsensical". Does the world change just because we learn something new about it?

I agree that nothing is going to change because we choose to believe one thing or another. That wasn't my point, though. My point is that the act of choosing to believe that you don't have the ability to choose is a nonsensical act. It's like writing the sentence "I can't write." You can physically do that if you want, but it's a logically self-contradicting.

AtheistDeity;27386 wrote:

The theory of free will is more like a religious theory than most realize. Neither have any actual proof, and are both products of some internal, satisfaction, or understanding pursuit.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's the case for some of us. (Keep in mind, pre-destination and determinism have "religious" roots too.)

I think the idea that there's not (scientific) proof of free will is an interesting one to push out. I've been thinking a bit about it recently since I'm taking a Psych course right now... The thing that struck me right at the beginning of the course was that since Psychology is a science studying the mind, it in some ways has some conclusions made before it ever studies the subject. By this I mean that science assumes to be a study of a cause-effect, orderly, machine-like universe. Because of this, no evidence can ever point to anything else. No scientific proof could exist, even theoretically. All conclusions must be made on the basic assumptions. The problem for us is that it's the assumptions we're wondering about, and a study based on them will never be able to evaluate them. So to me science can't be considered the only authority on what scientific thought can't test or question. On the other hand, I have the experience of making choices all the time. So experience is the higher authority IMO because it can examine the assumptions that scientific thinking can't.

I hope that makes sense, that's the first time I tried to put words to all that, and it's pretty fresh in my mind. Please ask some questions... It'll help me crystallize some of my thoughts.

Edit: Please note that when I argue for the idea of will or choice, I'm not attempting to say that anyone has completely, utterly, unhindered free will. That we are affected by our biology and environment is pretty clear.

@AtheistDeity,

AtheistDeity wrote:

To deny that want would be to incorporate the whole of human evolution. A human being is much like any other particular organism, were it not for the complexities of the brain-the unconscious sectors of the human brain is capable of storing every single thought, feeling, and experience in that organisms life time. So while one sudden desire from particular stimuli might arise, another would from human intelligence, contradicting the behavior. Being unconscious the human does not have control over this either. Human behavior is largely manipulated due to the very nature of our chemical complex that makes up our very presence, by the environmental affects, and experiences gained. Like a small cub would learn to hunt by watching its mother the human brain would constantly observe it's environment, creating logical assessments, and recollections to aid in response later on. To believe a human has "free will" is to say human beings somehow, by a possible mystical manipulation is consciously controlling the chemical reactions in it's body, and it's brain. To decide a response it to deside, any particular bodily function-they are all aimed at the same purpose, (survival) just located in different areas of the body. Or possibly to say a god or deity is controlling these functions, which would not really be free will at all.

Very nice, did you look at this post yet? I would be interested on some feedback

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-religion/2248-defining-evil.html

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Evolutionarily, we have attained a state where we realize our "instincts" and are able to go against them based on logic and higher mental capacities. This is free will.
It is true that every individual has a different degree of free-will. Some are more bound to their instincts than others.
I can say that I have been practicing the ability to counter my instincts for the last 4 years. I have been trying to attain a greater amount of free-will. I have been preforming several different ritual excersizes that directly go against instinct.
Things like not looking at women,
Fasting for a day,
Running past my breaking point until I collapse and then getting up and continuing.

The purpose was to attain more freedom from my instinctual side. And I can still clearly say that I possess instincts, but it is far easier for me to go against them.

This is free-will.

@AtheistDeity,

AtheistDeity;27397 wrote:

Will you continue asking circular questions, or do you have actual scientific proof that free will actually exists?[/COLOR]

Are you asking me personally?

@NeitherExtreme,

TickTockMan: Either individual would suffice ^.^
NeitherExtreme: I don't think you quite grasp the meaning of "circular argument". You are not offering evidence that free will exists, you are only judging my words based on the assumption that it does , and calling my argument "contradictory" despite having been told uncountable times I don't believe in choice in any circumstance and yet, not actually addressing the actual validity of your theory itself. You repeat your argument, and I have to re-explain myself, and the conversation just goes round, and round. In that way it is much like a religious individual arguing, "well, how can I be wrong if the bible (metaphor for beliefs) says otherwise?". (Not that only religious individuals have adopted this particular mentality).
As I said, to believe a human has "free will" is to say human beings somehow, by a possible mystical manipulation is consciously controlling the chemical reactions in its body, and its brain.
I do, however, believe in 'free will' to the extent that it is indeed your individual chemicals, and brain reacting, and responding, and that those chemicals are your outlet for perspective-therefore they are 'you', as are their reactions. What I am speaking against is if you are suggesting that the human mind would be a separate entity from the brain- that somehow we are an entity within this brain, being physically forced into certain behaviors, and controlling the 'process' in which chemical reaction, and responses occur with our 'will'(what we desire to happen). When in fact these desires, as well, are products of the chemical reactions you assume to be 'controlling'. Even considering that each chemical complex is its own individual being, it still does not "choose" the chemical reactions within it, as chemicals, what we are composed of, are inanimate substances.
In the way that chemical reactions, and responses (primarily located in the brain for certain organisms) are the prominent responsible entity in which an organism behaves has been proven-though it is not proven for an organism to neither be controlling these functions from within, or the chemicals that make up it's being from which we derive our sense of self, and perspective to be "choosing" these reactions, and responses-nor has it been proven that a human is in such a unique position that it only would be capable of doing this, other than considering the information, and recollection abilities in the human brain it would only have more "choices" to "choose" from than a certain animal, should free will be true. Evidence supporting my theory has been offered, and known, but if what you say is true, and neither evidence nor proof can be offered for the theory of free will, I'm afraid this conversation is not going anywhere.

@AtheistDeity,

Well played, AethistDeity. I think you and I are on more or less the same page about this subject. At the very least we're on the same chapter.

I've posted in other places on this forum that I consider myself an "Existentialist Determinist," which (if I'm reading what you're saying correctly) is sort of what you're getting at here. Am I just way off base from your thoughts, or is this reasonably accurate?

By Existentialist Determinist I mean, in a nutshell, that I believe we live in a deterministic universe, and though I believe that free will is largely an illusion, I persist in thinking that we still carry the burden of taking responsibility for our choices, actions, and lives.

I know. It's whacked.

As George Carlin used to say: "These are the kind of thoughts that keep me from making any real progress in my life."

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