Trying to understand 9/11 versus Hiroshima

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HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 04:38 pm
@xris,
xris;148886 wrote:
Why are you widening the argument? im not defending America unconditionally and stop assuming so damned much, its childish and arogant.
Then please give me examples of wageing war for the sake of justice.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 04:41 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;148925 wrote:
Then please give me examples of wageing war for the sake of justice.
some people might consider the Revolutionary War as a "just" war.
 
polpol
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 04:52 pm
@Amperage,
"I don't care what anyone's done in the past, at some point one nation or the other is going to have to be the "bigger man" so to speak and let it go and walk away, otherwise nothing will change."[/QUOTE]

That is so Gandhian! Blessings dear Amperage!
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 04:55 pm
@polpol,
polpol;148932 wrote:
"I don't care what anyone's done in the past, at some point one nation or the other is going to have to be the "bigger man" so to speak and let it go and walk away, otherwise nothing will change."

That is so Gandhian! Blessings dear Amperage!

I was just thinking I wonder what would have happened if we did not even respond to the 9/11 attacks.

I wonder if it would have aggravated them even more, encouraged them, or done like the child who is ignored and they would have lost interest....I'll guess we'll never know.

Of course there are ways to respond without resorting to violence.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:03 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148933 wrote:
I was just thinking I wonder what would have happened if we did not even respond to the 9/11 attacks.

I wonder if it would have aggravated them even more, encouraged them, or done like the child who is ignored and they would have lost interest....I'll guess we'll never know.

Of course there are ways to respond without resorting to violence.


It would have legitimized the operation among the masses. Without retaliation it would've been denounced throughout the world.

However, it would've also made the US seem impotent to the fanatics who orchestrated it and another, larger operation would have followed.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:05 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148733 wrote:
What does it show about hypocrisy, I meant.
You are right sorry for steering in a different direction. There seems to be so much that can be said about that.Smile
 
polpol
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:10 pm
@Amperage,
Yes Amperage, there are many ways to conflict resolution but the problem nowadays (perhaps always), is war profiteering. The soldiers that get blown up in Afghanistan are only there to give a human face to that ugly and stupid war, it's the merceneries that are doing the real dirty job. Here, companies have united 2 years ago to create a non-profit company whose aim is to obtain war related contracts. They have announced the contruction of their office building conventiently located between the airport and the military base. Those people have no interest to see the war end any time soon.
You say the best thing to do is to couragously walk out. Gandhi called this non-coperation. It's a good start anyways.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:13 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;148939 wrote:
It would have legitimized the operation among the masses. Without retaliation it would've been denounced throughout the world.

However, it would've also made the US seem impotent to the fanatics who orchestrated it and another, larger operation would have followed.
therein lies the problem. The system is such that when someone attacks a nation, that nation almost has to respond.

The problem is nothing will change until one nation rises above that. Until a nation is willing to "bite the bullet" as it were, and risk losing face with some, things will remain the same. But then again....that's sort of wishful thinking on my part

This all presupposes that other nations would care. Or would be willing to do the same. If they weren't, then it would certainty be a loss.

I guess we'll never know.

If this mentality was put into practice in the animal kingdom, such an animal would surely be destroyed/die/starve. But then again we are much more enlightened than animals.

Then again the problem is and always would be those wanting to take advantage of others generosity/kind ways.


I've heard it said that everybody dreams of a world of happiness and sunshine where everyone loves one another and trust one another.......one half dreams of living in that world, while unfortunately the other half dreams of exploiting that world.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:28 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148946 wrote:
therein lies the problem. The system is such that when someone attacks a nation, that nation almost has to respond.

The problem is nothing will change until one nation rises above that. Until a nation is willing to "bite the bullet" as it were, and risk losing face with some, things will remain the same. But then again....that's sort of wishful thinking on my part

This all presupposes that other nations would care. Or would be willing to do the same. If they weren't, then it would certainty be a loss.

I guess we'll never know.

If this mentality was put into practice in the animal kingdom, such an animal would surely be destroyed/die/starve. But then again we are much more enlightened than animals.

Then again the problem is and always would be those wanting to take advantage of others generosity/kind ways.


I've heard it said that everybody dreams of a world of happiness and sunshine where everyone loves one another and trust one another.......one half dreams of living in that world, while unfortunately the other half dreams of exploiting that world.


You are attempting to treat the symptoms not the disease.
It is not about "not reacting." it is about not behaving in a way to provke an attack. If every American and American business was required to treat every human on the planet as if they were Americans with all the same rights, then we would not have half the problems we have now.

The reason we were attacked on 9/11 has nothing to do with the American People, it was an attack on American business that has been raping the natural resources of the arab world for the last 100 years.

If WE hold our businesses accountable, others won't have to.

thanks.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:32 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;148955 wrote:
You are attempting to treat the symptoms not the disease.
It is not about "not reacting." it is about not behaving in a way to provke an attack. If every American and American business was required to treat every human on the planet as if they were Americans with all the same rights, then we would not have half the problems we have now.

The reason we were attacked on 9/11 has nothing to do with the American People, it was an attack on American business that has been raping the natural resources of the arab world for the last 100 years.

If WE hold our businesses accountable, others won't have to.

thanks.
I think that was well said, however, such situations are never simply about how one side behaves or doesn't behave. The other side always has the option of how they respond. But in general I agree with the sentiment.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:47 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148958 wrote:
I think that was well said, however, such situations are never simply about how one side behaves or doesn't behave. The other side always has the option of how they respond. But in general I agree with the sentiment.


How unfortunate. The sentiment is nonsense. What provoked the attack was that America was interfering with Osama's attempt to establish a Caliphate. That cannot, and will not, be permitted.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:52 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148958 wrote:
I think that was well said, however, such situations are never simply about how one side behaves or doesn't behave. The other side always has the option of how they respond. But in general I agree with the sentiment.



I agree. Yet when we treat the world as we treat ourselves then we need not feel bad when we are forced into war.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:52 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148961 wrote:
How unfortunate. The sentiment is nonsense. What provoked the attack was that America was interfering with Osama's attempt to establish a Caliphate. That cannot, and will not, be permitted.
by "in general I agree with the sentiment" I meant that I think that if we take care of our own problems, we will cut down on a lot of the outside issues.

Obviously there were "reason we were attacked on 9/11" but that doesn't mean they were justified. But to say we played no role would be, of course, wrong.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148961 wrote:
How unfortunate. The sentiment is nonsense. What provoked the attack was that America was interfering with Osama's attempt to establish a Caliphate. That cannot, and will not, be permitted.


I do not believe you could find evidence to support this claim.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 05:56 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148968 wrote:
by "in general I agree with the sentiment" I meant that I think that if we take care of our own problems, we will cut down on a lot of the outside issues.

Obviously there were "reason we were attacked on 9/11" but that doesn't mean they were justified. But to say we played no role would be, of course, wrong.


But we were taking care of our own problems. The control of the Middle East by hostile forces would be a disaster for the United States, and for the rest of the first world (and even the third world).
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 06:03 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148971 wrote:
But we were taking care of our own problems. The control of the Middle East by hostile forces would be a disaster for the United States, and for the rest of the first world (and even the third world).
hostile forces we trained and supplied during the cold war era....
and hostilities we helped perpetuate by keeping (corrupt)people in power whom the nations clearly didn't want(see Shah of Iran circa 1979 or so heck see South Vietnam) and using a secret police to arrest those who opposed simply because of our fear of communism and desire to control oil producing nations.


"....would be a disaster for the United States, and for the rest of the first world (and even the third world)."

I guess we'll never know. Have you ever seen the movie Minority Report? I wonder what side of the fence we each fall on some of the time. Would we arrest people before they commit a crime?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 06:09 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148976 wrote:
hostile forces we trained and supplied during the cold war era....
and hostilities we helped perpetuate by keeping (corrupt)people in power whom the nations clearly didn't want(see Shah of Iran circa 1979 or so heck see South Vietnam) and using a secret police to arrest those who opposed simply because of our fear of communism and desire to control oil producing nations.


"....would be a disaster for the United States, and for the rest of the first world (and even the third world)."

I guess we'll never know. Have you ever seen the movie Minority Report? I wonder what side of the fence we each fall on some of the time. Would we arrest people before the commit a crime?


If the United States and the rest of the world were deprived of oil, it would collapse economically. We know that.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 06:10 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148978 wrote:
If the United States and the rest of the world were deprived of oil, it would collapse economically. We know that.
I'm not disputing this.

In fact I'm not disputing anything....including our actions. I just see that neither side is innocent.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 06:12 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148979 wrote:
I'm not disputing this.

In fact I'm not disputing anything....including our actions. I just see that neither side is innocent.


How is the United States to blame?
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 06:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148982 wrote:
How is the United States to blame?
I just explained it. See our involvement in the region during the cold war era. We kept people in power who shouldn't have been(the Shah of Iran for example) simply because they supported us and not the Russians. We kept them in power by using a secret police to arrest and silence those who opposed. We taught them how to carry out acts of terrorism and supplied them with the means to do it.

I am by no means a historian just a fan of history and it's been a while since I studied any of this so I've forgotten a lot of the details but there are numerous accounts much more detailed than mine.

One particular one I really wish I could remember but I can't remember it well enough to even tell it. It was pretty appalling though and essentially amounted to us letting some people die when they were asking neigh begging for our help.

The point is there are reasons why certain middle eastern sects have a resentment for America

Obviously this doesn't justify anything they did (like 9/11), I'm just saying. It's out there....these people didn't spin a globe and close their eyes(Coming to America style) and point and stop on America and choose to start attacking them.
 
 

 
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