Trying to understand 9/11 versus Hiroshima

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Jebediah
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 11:28 pm
@Karpowich,
Karpowich;148729 wrote:
I've enjoyed this debate tremendously so far, but here's a suggestion to steer conversation in another direction:

If it is agreed that America has engaged in activities in the past that can be deemed acts of terrorism, is it unethical for America to be fighting a war on terror when we ourselves have been terrorist? If you argue no because it the acts happened so long ago, I would be interested in hearing how much time must pass before the act should no longer impact the image of the country?


I don't see it being in any way unethical, regardless of how short a time has passed. If it was very recent, then it would be hypocritical, not unethical. If any action is unethical, then preventing it would seem to be ethical, even if you had done lots of unethical things yourself.

But I don't want to strawman you. You have a number of points about the US actions in the middle east and about the war on terror in general which are not being brought into play here. You could specifically argue that the war on terror is unethical, but I don't think it would be because the US had bombed Hiroshima.

Quote:
Also, I do not think the personal justification behind the act should impact the discussion. As many people have stated before, personal justification is one sided. What may seem necessary to an American is most likely a great evil to whomever the act was enacted upon. I'm pretty sure the Japanese do not look at the bombing of their country with happiness and thank America for destroying their non-combat kin in an attempt to save the lives of Americans.
I think the historical discussion is quite complicated. You would have to take into account things like who was the aggressor, how many people were being killed by the Japanese in China:

Quote:
For China alone, depending upon what number one chooses for overall Chinese casualties, in each of the ninety-seven months between July 1937 and August 1945, somewhere between 100,000 and 200,000 persons perished, the vast majority of them noncombatants. For the other Asians alone, the average probably ranged in the tens of thousands per month, but the actual numbers were almost certainly greater in 1945, notably due to the mass death in a famine in Vietnam. Newman concluded that each month that the war continued in 1945 would have produced the deaths of "upwards of 250,000 people, mostly Asian but some Westerners."[14][15]
From wiki :Not-Impressed:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:47 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;148701 wrote:
I would think that this shows that we should not believe in absolutes as far as are ethics are concerned, but instead be open minded that we may have it wrong when we think that it is ok to kill many to get at a few that we believe to be wrong. but it even goes deeper than this.Smile


What does it show about hypocrisy, I meant.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 03:16 am
@kennethamy,
If you ever met any one who was a prisoner of the Japanese and asked him about the Japanese , he would request you killed ever last one of them. When you compare the cruelty and barbarism they inflicted on their enemy and prisoners , compassion for their suffering is hard to justify.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 10:03 am
@xris,
xris;148749 wrote:
If you ever met any one who was a prisoner of the Japanese and asked him about the Japanese , he would request you killed ever last one of them. When you compare the cruelty and barbarism they inflicted on their enemy and prisoners , compassion for their suffering is hard to justify.
Yep, indeed, that's why we civilized people have laws to prevent ourselfs to become what we abhore so.
 
Karpowich
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:01 pm
@xris,
xris;148749 wrote:
If you ever met any one who was a prisoner of the Japanese and asked him about the Japanese , he would request you killed ever last one of them. When you compare the cruelty and barbarism they inflicted on their enemy and prisoners , compassion for their suffering is hard to justify.


So this makes it excusable to enact an act of terrorism on their people?
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:11 pm
@Karpowich,
Karpowich;148843 wrote:
So this makes it excusable to enact an act of terrorism on their people?


Yes, it is interesting how many people believe that two wrongs make a right. Especially when one considers the fact that the civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not have much say in whether or not there was even going to be a war. But people find it easy to lump others together, as if they formed some monolithic whole. Strangely, most people don't like it when they themselves get blamed for what others do who are thought of as being connected with them in some way, but often they do not mind doing this with others.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:14 pm
@Karpowich,
I do think there are times when a nation is forced to act in a way that may seem unethical for the sake of social cohesion.

As members of a nation, we have essentially entered into a contract in which we as individuals are to be protected by the greater.

Things that would be wrong for an individual can, at times, become necessary in order to maintain that societal structure. I'm not saying this is an excuse only a brute fact. If a nation allows it's citizens to be brutalized or taken hostage or murdered and does nothing to protect its citizen, there would be social upheaval and anarchy.

So on a national level it really becomes less about the individual and more about protecting social order. As individuals, we are held to one standard but on a national level the obligations change.

I'm not saying I agree with any of this nor do I think it's excusable. This is just an off the cuff/spur of the moment assessment.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:20 pm
@Karpowich,
Karpowich;148843 wrote:
So this makes it excusable to enact an act of terrorism on their people?
So its not opinions you require? its your view to be agreed on. I dont think it was a terrorist act, it was an act of war. Why should I feel sorrow for a nation that committed thousands of war crimes. I feel sorrow for the individuals suffering but its the nation of Japan that should be held responsible. Go to the Burmese railway built by prisoners of Japan, every railway sleeper laid represented a life lost. Thousands were dying daily by their hand , cutting short the war saved lives , even if they were not Japanese. I see this subjects brought up and the condemnation of America, every now and then, do you think it wont be defended.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:37 pm
@xris,
xris;148849 wrote:
. I feel sorrow for the individuals suffering but its the nation of Japan that should be held responsible.
In one sense I agree because as citizens of Japan, it should be the responsibility of the nation of Japan to do what is in their citizens best interest. To protect them. However, neither side is blameless of course.

--------------
One problem with trying to assign condemnation and whatnot is that no nation is clean. As Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. No nation is without sin. So it's hard for one nation to listen to the criticism of another nation.

In an ideal world the individuals within the nation that needs criticism would take care of the problem. For example, the citizens of Germany would have rose up against Hitler vs. needing the rest of the world to do it. But alas, this seems rather wishful thinking on my part. Nations are selfish and individuals lack the courage to stand up against what they know is wrong.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:40 pm
@xris,
xris;148849 wrote:
So its not opinions you require? its your view to be agreed on. I dont think it was a terrorist act, it was an act of war. Why should I feel sorrow for a nation that committed thousands of war crimes. I feel sorrow for the individuals suffering but its the nation of Japan that should be held responsible. Go to the Burmese railway built by prisoners of Japan, every railway sleeper laid represented a life lost. Thousands were dying daily by their hand , cutting short the war saved lives , even if they were not Japanese. I see this subjects brought up and the condemnation of America, every now and then, do you think it wont be defended.
You sure sound like a person who likes to "get even", and surely likes the term "it's time for pay back!".
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 12:52 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148853 wrote:
In one sense I agree because as citizens of Japan, it should be the responsibility of the nation of Japan to do what is in their citizens best interest. To protect them. However, neither side is blameless of course.

--------------
One problem with trying to assign condemnation and whatnot is that no nation is clean. As Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. No nation is without sin. So it's hard for one nation to listen to the criticism of another nation.

In an ideal world the individuals within the nation that needs criticism would take care of the problem. For example, the citizens of Germany would have rose up against Hitler vs. needing the rest of the world to do it. But alas, this seems rather wishful thinking on my part. Nations are selfish and individuals lack the courage to stand up against what they know is wrong.
We can not understand the horrors our communities suffered by a war that threatened civilisation and our very existence. I knew those who suffered at the Japanese hands and their stories can not be explained in normal human terms. Imagine your worst nightmare and it does not come close. The Japanese even now, knowing what horrors their sons committed, worship their names. They have no shame and they show no shame.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 01:55 PM ----------

HexHammer;148855 wrote:
You sure sound like a person who likes to "get even", and surely likes the term "it's time for pay back!".
I dont want or expect vengeance but I do require justice. Those Bombs were an horrendous answer to a cruel war.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:14 pm
@xris,
xris;148859 wrote:
The Japanese even now, knowing what horrors their sons committed, worship their names. They have no shame and they show no shame.
statements like this are completely unsubstantiated and biased and just come off, to me, as rhetoric. My grandmother was 100% Japanese and she was the nicest person I ever knew and she did have compassion for what those people went through, despite her people being rounded up into "camps" here in America
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:19 pm
@xris,
xris;148859 wrote:

I dont want or expect vengeance but I do require justice. Those Bombs were an horrendous answer to a cruel war.
That doesn't sound like justice, but selfrighteousness.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:25 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148863 wrote:
statements like this are completely unsubstantiated and biased and just come off, to me, as rhetoric. My grandmother was 100% Japanese and she was the nicest person I ever knew and she did have compassion for what those people went through, despite her people being rounded up into "camps" here in America
Then go to japan and see the worship and have you ever heard them openly admit their horrors. An individual American of Japanese decent does not answer for a nation. I see the condemnation of Americans here , shall I not comment on Japans horrors or their lack of confession.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 02:28 PM ----------

HexHammer;148865 wrote:
That doesn't sound like justice, but selfrighteousness.
How is it self righteous, you need to explain? How is requesting Justice self righteous?:perplexed:
 
Amperage
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:29 pm
@xris,
xris;148866 wrote:
Then go to japan and see the worship and have you ever heard them openly admit their horrors. An individual American of Japanese decent does not answer for a nation. I see the condemnation of Americans here , shall I not comment on Japans horrors or their lack of confession.
I hope I do get to go to Japan one day because I would love to learn more about my heritage on that side of my family.

I don't understand what your hoping to gain by drudging out all these horrors of Japans past. I don't think anyone is saying they didn't commit horrors, just as I hope you're not trying to claim America is without its horrors.

I can only assume you're doing so to de-humanize the Japanese people to lesson the burden on America which, despite being American and loving this country to death, I take personal offense to.

I don't care what anyone's done in the past, at some point one nation or the other is going to have to be the "bigger man" so to speak and let it go and walk away, otherwise nothing will change.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:40 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;148868 wrote:
I hope I do get to go to Japan one day because I would love to learn more about my heritage on that side of my family.

I don't understand what your hoping to gain by drudging out all these horrors of Japans past. I don't think anyone is saying they didn't commit horrors, just as I hope you're not trying to claim America is without its horrors.

I can only assume you're doing so to de-humanize the Japanese people to lesson the burden on America which, despite being American and loving this country to death, I take personal offense to.
Im not condemning, im answering this thread, your countrymen did us a great service bringing the war to an end and I wont let that service be classified as an act of terrorism. Im trying to give a view from those who suffered by Japanese hands and why that action was taken. You cant just isolate one event and just condemn it without understanding why it occurred.
 
Karpowich
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:46 pm
@xris,
xris;148849 wrote:
I dont think it was a terrorist act, it was an act of war. Why should I feel sorrow for a nation that committed thousands of war crimes. I feel sorrow for the individuals suffering but its the nation of Japan that should be held responsible.


Amazingly, this is a major portion of the logic behind Al Qaeda and 9/11. They look at the United States uninvited involvement in the middle east and do not look at their act of terrorism as a terrorist attack but most likely an act of war as well. Based on your logic, why should they feel sorry for us when we ourselves have created acts of terrorism in the past? We are no better than they are yet everyday we try and prove we are far more righteous.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 02:51 PM ----------

xris;148866 wrote:
I see the condemnation of Americans here , shall I not comment on Japans horrors or their lack of confession.


So this makes it ok for Americans to keep their mouth shut and not admit a fault that we have created in our past? Just because Japan doesn't admit the atrocities they committed it's ok for us to keep them out of our mind as well? I am not trying to slander America, I am just trying to understand why it's ok for America to tell other countries what is ok and not ok to do while we can not admit our own mistakes. How can we be a leading nation when we only admit our glorifications and not our condemnations?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 01:55 pm
@xris,
xris;148866 wrote:
How is it self righteous, you need to explain? How is requesting Justice self righteous?:perplexed:
I never seen any justice in the wars waged by USA, too much colatteral damage only showing that USA is a greater badboy than those enemies they'r fighting.

Don't think you know much about Agent Orange in Vietnam.

Iraq 40k innocent casualties, for what? 9/11? Don't think you know what you are talking about.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 02:18 pm
@Karpowich,
My two-cents

Terrorism is an empty term that has no meaning. There are only acts of aggression. The label terrorism is only applied by those acted upon. I have never heard of anyone that has been a part of an act of aggression (what is referred to as terrorism) that did so for no reason. No matter how skewed all so-called terrorists are justified in their own minds and for the most part they all have legitimate reasons for their beliefs, if not for their actions.

There has never been an unprovoked act of terrorism in known history.

Both 9/11 and Hiroshima/Nagasaki were justified attacks. One was done by us the other was done against us.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 02:31 pm
@Karpowich,
Karpowich;148874 wrote:
Amazingly, this is a major portion of the logic behind Al Qaeda and 9/11. They look at the United States uninvited involvement in the middle east and do not look at their act of terrorism as a terrorist attack but most likely an act of war as well. Based on your logic, why should they feel sorry for us when we ourselves have created acts of terrorism in the past? We are no better than they are yet everyday we try and prove we are far more righteous.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 02:51 PM ----------



So this makes it ok for Americans to keep their mouth shut and not admit a fault that we have created in our past? Just because Japan doesn't admit the atrocities they committed it's ok for us to keep them out of our mind as well? I am not trying to slander America, I am just trying to understand why it's ok for America to tell other countries what is ok and not ok to do while we can not admit our own mistakes. How can we be a leading nation when we only admit our glorifications and not our condemnations?
I still maintain that 9/11 was an act to encourage a reaction not punish America. The Bombing of Japan was an act intended to cut short an expensive war. If you cant see why America had a valid reason, then my explaination has fallen on deaf ears.

I can understand the reasoning why we had the 9/11 attacks . In my opinion they want conflict it serves their purpose. We see it in Pakistan and Iraq, conflicts unstabilize society and creates divisions, where the extremist can then maneuver.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 03:34 PM ----------

HexHammer;148878 wrote:
I never seen any justice in the wars waged by USA, too much colatteral damage only showing that USA is a greater badboy than those enemies they'r fighting.

Don't think you know much about Agent Orange in Vietnam.

Iraq 40k innocent casualties, for what? 9/11? Don't think you know what you are talking about.
Why are you widening the argument? im not defending America unconditionally and stop assuming so damned much, its childish and arogant.
 
 

 
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