Goodness; the good person; and true justice

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reasoning logic
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 09:19 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;132636 wrote:
My efforts to put ethics on a sounder, and more logical, basis are not an attempt to get rid of religion. If someone comes to the same place, and they got it from their religious beliefs -- fine ! Great. I just don't think the traditions of the past have done such a good job. So I am offering a new paradigm.

I have now written an Epilogue (10 more pages) which I will be glad to email to you, once you tell me you've finsihed studying the document as it is now.

As to whether I believe in God, and as to what kind of a god it is, see:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/secondary-branches-philosophy/philosophy-religion/7683-god-can-defined-even-worshipped-adored.html

Thanks deepthot I think what you are doing is a good thing. I am sure that many will profit from it.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 1 Mar, 2010 08:59 pm
@deepthot,
Although most religions refer to morality in some way it can certainly exist without religious ideals.

I personally believe that it should be the ultimate goal of all humans to seek after universal harmony of the human species. I believe it is what we evolve toward and is at the heart of every facet of human living.

Defining good from what is not good is part of that process of evolving toward harmony of the species.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:38 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;134313 wrote:
Although most religions refer to morality in some way it can certainly exist without religious ideals.

I personally believe that it should be the ultimate goal of all humans to seek after universal harmony of the human species. I believe it is what we evolve toward and is at the heart of every facet of human living.

Defining good from what is not good is part of that process of evolving toward harmony of the species.


Due to your excellent logic and reasonableness, I am compelled to agree with your findings - along the path - as you hunt for the truth.

Yes, the harmony of our human family ought to be a paramount concern. Just as we want the organs of our body to be in harmony so that we have health, physical health, so we ought to seek moral health, which would mean universal harmony of the human species. You are wise and enlightened.

You write: "...as vast and spectacular as creation is, it becomes either, a creation consisting of insensitive human physicality, or a creation in which primal humans have advanced to become more than their physical make-up; to become spiritually enhanced beings of love and wisdom. In the end creation will be what we cause it to become, so in a sense we are the creators ourselves. We can either strive to become more than we are, or we can settle with what we have. It only takes a glance at the war, religious persecution and inhumanity toward our brethren, to know what that choice should be."

Well said. More power to you, Pathfinder. You write clearly and profoundly. And you are very lucky to be the father of four boys and to have a wife you adore. The First Cause has blessed you indeed.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:00 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;134931 wrote:
Due to your excellent logic and reasonableness, I am compelled to agree with your findings - along the path - as you hunt for the truth.

Yes, the harmony of our human family ought to be a paramount concern. Just as we want the organs of our body to be in harmony so that we have health, physical health, so we ought to seek moral health, which would mean universal harmony of the human species. You are wise and enlightened.

You write: "...as vast and spectacular as creation is, it becomes either, a creation consisting of insensitive human physicality, or a creation in which primal humans have advanced to become more than their physical make-up; to become spiritually enhanced beings of love and wisdom. In the end creation will be what we cause it to become, so in a sense we are the creators ourselves. We can either strive to become more than we are, or we can settle with what we have. It only takes a glance at the war, religious persecution and inhumanity toward our brethren, to know what that choice should be."

Well said. More power to you, Pathfinder. You write clearly and profoundly. And you are very lucky to be the father of four boys and to have a wife you adore. The First Cause has blessed you indeed.



Deepthot,

I am deeply humbled and appreciative of your intent, obviously made along with some of my other writings elsewhere, which I also am respectful for. You are right though, we are all a forward moving blessing of that First Cause. The thought continues to evolve. I am gratfiied immensely that others are sharing these thoughts of mine. Keep in touch.

[email][email protected][/email]
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:03 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;136358 wrote:
Deepthot,

I am deeply humbled and appreciative of your intent, obviously made along with some of my other writings elsewhere, which I also am respectful for. You are right though, we are all a forward moving blessing of that First Cause. The thought continues to evolve. I am gratfiied immensely that others are sharing these thoughts of mine. Keep in touch.

[email][email protected][/email]


You would really love this thread.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 01:45 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;127462 wrote:

Imo it shows that if indifference has no consequenses / no punishment, people will choose the easy way out.

We can teach all we want, but if you can shrug off the teaching without consequenses we will do so.


This is part of the truth, but not the whole truth. Many a man has died for honor or love. And scientists have exposed themselves to radioactivity in a quest for knowledge, knowing it was risky. We do have an urge to trancend the monkey, but it's weak in a culture such as ours, which preaches the eating of cheetoes & buying of ipods as religion (tv commercials)

ask yourself why someone so cynical would want to be aware of such a truth...because the truth as truth is beautiful, because for some reason we want to know the truth, to the degree that we can bear it
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 04:39 am
@Reconstructo,
HexHammer touches on a valid point. But I would add to that by saying that the majority of humanity, (not necessarily the nature of humanity because nature can change), the majority will choose self gratification over what it is best for the species, and that a consequence for such a choice will have some positive ramifications in many of those cases.

This is seen in every culture that imposes civility on its citizens in order to attain some sense of harmonious living. Without the imposition self gratification will always rule. But who shall do the imposing and defining of what is right and civil?

Devising laws for society is easy compared to the chore of choosing who will be the dictator. Yes, dictator! For regardless of whether they are self imposed or elected, they are still the power and authority which dictates how you will live and choose.

This dictatorial method of acquiring social harmony is found in both democracies and dictatorships, although the democracies like to think they have acquired it freely. Try to avoid paying your taxes next year and you will find out how free you are to make your own choices.

The fact is that in order to attain harmony, freedom of choice is always in the way, and it seems that when that freedom is limited by an imposition of harmonious values, self gratification becomes more difficult to accomplish. One cannot simply do whatever they please. Which is of course an attack on everything liberal minded. But one look at the moral decay and confusion that liberalism has brought into the melting pot cultures that try to afford equal rights to every facet of society that exists shows that it is impossible and disfunctional to try to please all of the people all of the time. How can people of so many different attitudes and desires all find acceptance under one roof without crossing each other? Collisions are bound to happen and when they do, if self gratification is all that rules, power will also be the ultimate victor. The group with the most power will become the dictator, whether you want to define that as majority vote or tyrannical rule.

If we have to have a power dictate the rules of social harmony to us in order to keep us from killing each other than why not intelligently and logically select that power. WHY? Because again, man is overwhelmed by his lean toward self gratification and will not sacrifice what he wants for the good of his humanity.

Here is derivative proof that understanding the true self, and how our self relates to our humanity, is the key to overcoming social discord and evolving toward the harmony of human life.

It has never been, and will never be, a matter of finding some authority that meets some definition of what is good compared to a definition of what is not good, to rule over society. Throughout history both democracies and dictatorships have been victimized by that dilemma. Every authority, elected or not, will have its own agenda, its own self gratifications to fulfill. The answer is found in ourselves; in each one of us individually, as we come to understand which is more important; our being human, or our being an individual aspect of that humanity. Once each one of us realizes that we are simply a small part of a much more important humanity, than our species benefits, instead of our short, abrupt physical manifestations. At that point of human evolution the species will accelerate to new discoveries and advancements that will make the computer age look like scribbling on a rock tablet.

Ethics are necessary to acquire civility, and defining them only becomes a problem when we place self gratification before the common good of all. Everyone knows that it would be wrong to defecate in the midst of a crowd of people as though they were not even exposed to your ignorance. There is an ethic in play here that need not be defined. It is simply a matter of both, whether or not that individual chooses to be discreet and respectful of others, and also whether or not there will be consequences for his making the wrong choice. Someone who does not care how his decisions affect others around him will need an incentive to be civil. And because we know we cannot appoint this authority without bias, the only other place to look is into the human consciousness to seek after the definition of what makes us what we are, and why some of us make the choices that we do. Not to make individual definitions of what is good and what is not good, but to understand why the human chooses to act individually over and above his own humanity.

Consequences are a necessary evil, temporarily, to achieve a society that can tolerate itself. But it will never be the long-term solution.

Understanding is the key; humanity is the conduit; harmony is the goal.

This written off the top of my head may require some editing so bear with me please.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 7 Mar, 2010 10:20 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136403 wrote:
This is part of the truth, but not the whole truth. Many a man has died for honor or love. And scientists have exposed themselves to radioactivity in a quest for knowledge, knowing it was risky. We do have an urge to trancend the monkey, but it's weak in a culture such as ours, which preaches the eating of cheetoes & buying of ipods as religion (tv commercials)

ask yourself why someone so cynical would want to be aware of such a truth...because the truth as truth is beautiful, because for some reason we want to know the truth, to the degree that we can bear it
Erhmm? Yes? ..what has that to do with anything? When does the few account for the many?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 06:52 am
@HexHammer,
Reconstructo is hinting at what many of us already know; that ignorance is bliss.

For a small percentage of this world the standard of life appears to be much higher than in other social standings and they deliberately bury their heads in the sand to maintain that standard of life. If the truth means admitting to any sort of hypocrisy or alteration of that lifestyle they will gladly fore-go that truth. Self gratification is once again in the way of reality. That lifelong effort to try to please that thing within us that we identify as our self and place above all else, when in reality most of us do not even know what that self really is.

Therefore we place something we imagine before the reality in which we actually exist, and attempt to live in the fairy tale at the expense of our reality.

Many of us do sacrifice for our loved ones, but we all suffer that dilemma of not being able to comprehend the truth about our self identity, or what self really is, and in the course of that ignorance fall prey to all sorts of delusional routines.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 07:50 am
@Pathfinder,
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 08:13 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;137490 wrote:



Actually what most of us think is what is taught to us. Do not forget that much charity is donated by millions of people who believe they have something to gain by the charitable act. Many more donate without any concern whatsoever if the donation actually gets to the hands of those they had in mind. Ignorance is bliss. Appearance is everything to most of humanity, and they believe that the appearance of good is better than its alternative.

I am not against aid to underdeveloped parts of the world, in fact I am all for it, but I do not ignore those evils that waylay the efforts, just for the sake of my own philanthropy.

Defining good from what is not good is really not the avenue to prosperity; defining self and how that relates to our humanity is the answer.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:20 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;137496 wrote:
Defining good from what is not good is really not the avenue to prosperity; defining self and how that relates to our humanity is the answer.
I must strongly disagree. Defining, is the basis of differenciate constructive things from naivity, else it just ends up in form over content. Exatly what the fashion slaves basicly says, the carrot of group think.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:58 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;137506 wrote:
I must strongly disagree. Defining, is the basis of differenciate constructive things from naivete, else it just ends up in form over content. Exatly what the fashion slaves basicly says, the carrot of group think.



I know English is not your native tongue so maybe you misunderstood me. I do not suggest that attempting to define is wrong, I am saying that we should be setting priorities about what needs defining. I am suggesting that defining the human self is more important and productive, and will reveal the answers we seek, more efficiently than debating all of these other mysteries that we never find agreement on.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:10 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;137524 wrote:
I know English is not your native tongue so maybe you misunderstood me. I do not suggest that attempting to define is wrong, I am saying that we should be setting priorities about what needs defining. I am suggesting that defining the human self is more important and productive, and will reveal the answers we seek, more efficiently than debating all of these other mysteries that we never find agreement on.
Seems I understood you perfectly.

What you speak of, is selfcenterdness, excatly the rules fashionslaves lives by. ..ruled by emotion, ruled by group think.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 11:05 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;137530 wrote:
Seems I understood you perfectly.

What you speak of, is selfcenterdness, excatly the rules fashionslaves lives by. ..ruled by emotion, ruled by group think.



Okay then maybe you misunderstand my use of the term self. I am not implying ego rather I am suggesting that most people do not understand what the self means. It is defining what the actual identity of a persons inner self is that I speak of, not the ego of a person.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 05:48 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;137557 wrote:
Okay then maybe you misunderstand my use of the term self. I am not implying ego rather I am suggesting that most people do not understand what the self means. It is defining what the actual identity of a persons inner self is that I speak of, not the ego of a person.
Rather seems you should study psycology, since you use the term in a too broad scale. :flowers:
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:03 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;137705 wrote:
Rather seems you should study psycology, since you use the term in a too broad scale. :flowers:



Exactly my point Hex, its really a simple matter to bring to realization, but the hundreds of opinions and dissections of it simply lead minds away from the simple truth of the matter.

I do not need to study psychology or philosophy to know how I acknowledge my identity. That is a natural process that every human goes through.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:56 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;137763 wrote:
Exactly my point Hex, its really a simple matter to bring to realization, but the hundreds of opinions and dissections of it simply lead minds away from the simple truth of the matter.

I do not need to study psychology or philosophy to know how I acknowledge my identity. That is a natural process that every human goes through.
Let me put it this way then, I find you very amuseing. Laughing
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 05:46 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;137785 wrote:
Let me put it this way then, I find you very amuseing. Laughing


Fortunately, for humanity, I take it a little more seriously than you do than. Some people are amused by what they cannot understand. Others are confounded and still others are frustrated. So I guess, that you are amused, is a good thing, for you.

Today, as you look into the mirror and stare at your face, ask yourself why you are looking at your face and recognizing yourself, when in fact if you were to place a towel over your head you would still be the same self.

This self identity that you use to interact with yourself is a delusion of your brain because of how it is designed to operate. And trying to comprehend that is what leads people to the consideration of inner spirituality, which is as much a fabrication of the brain as your self identity. It is all a matter of the brain trying to comprehend its environment.

And in your effort to do so you become amused. Many others think a little deeper and have a different reaction. Thanks for your time though , I'll discuss this with someone else.
 
 

 
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