Donkey and Carrot

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bmcreider
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 09:23 am
@Reconstructo,
It does seem to be quite disarming, and comedic, to mock and name.

If we really do tell ourselves in our heads, all the people on this forum, that we want to be responsible for some paradigm shift - then aren't we a little idealistic?

But, on the flip side, did the people who were responsible for paradigm shifts think the same thing?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 09:28 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;125578 wrote:


Is Heidegger's Being equivalent to Malevich's suprematism somehow?



Absolutely, "somehow". Everything is equivalent to everything else, "somehow". And, nothing is equivalent to anything else, "somehow". Does that surprise you? Three cheers for, "somehow"!
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 03:31 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;126440 wrote:

If we really do tell ourselves in our heads, all the people on this forum, that we want to be responsible for some paradigm shift - then aren't we a little idealistic?

But, on the flip side, did the people who were responsible for paradigm shifts think the same thing?


By a "little idealistic," do you mean ambitious? Is it taboo to be ambitious or just to confess one's ambition?
Is this the residue of Christianity that tells us to "abase ourselves to be exalted"? But if we are abasing ourselves in pursuit of exaltation, why the detour? (Actually, I could try to answer that as well.) What motivates the suspicion of high hopes?

One could consider the confession/investigation of this desire to shift paradigms (be world-historical) as a text/mask/game. What drives philosophers? I speculate that there is no easy single answer to this.

---------- Post added 02-09-2010 at 04:43 PM ----------

kennethamy;126443 wrote:
Absolutely, "somehow". Everything is equivalent to everything else, "somehow". And, nothing is equivalent to anything else, "somehow". Does that surprise you? Three cheers for, "somehow"!


I'll answer you this once, before I put you back on Ignore for being so predictably reductive and obtuse.

You fail to even see/hear the question. You parody your own lazy reading of the question. No one is talking of universal equivalence.

Learn a new trick somehow.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 04:18 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;126440 wrote:

If we really do tell ourselves in our heads, all the people on this forum, that we want to be responsible for some paradigm shift - then aren't we a little idealistic?

To hope to create a paradigm shift is a huge ambition. I'm not that ambitious, and I am fairly ambitious, except when I'm not.

But "idealistic" is a good word. Yes, the carrot is the ideal. Also, the carrot ties into the "ethical self concept." What goals do we find most important? Who do we want to be? How is this different from what others want? Why is it different? Do we all have some ambition? If so, the carrot is a symbol for this universal itch, assuming it's universal.
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 01:41 pm
@Reconstructo,
I am sorry for not having kept up with this thread, or any others. I do apologize.

I don't think I feel alone here when I say that the carrot, the "purpose" of life, seems to be farther and farther away the more I try to grab it.

Even if one person on this entire forum somehow created some paradigm shift or some other ultimate success in "philosophy" what has been achieved? Does achievement count if it isn't tangible? Such as losing weight, writing a novel, directing a movie, or having investments pay off.

I do think the carrot is universal. I think it is human nature to want the future to be better than the present or past. Improvement of society, of the world, however vague and hopeless that is, has been my "carrot" to try to attain. In my own small way, and all of us in our own small way, help make it a better place - and sometimes even a worse place, even if we don't know it.

Thus I am on a tangent, but the saying remains I think "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

All of us on this forum, I think, have good intentions. Our friends and family, be they liberal or conservative, religious or not, some label or another have mostly good intentions wouldn't you say? But, as an atheist, I used to say religion made the world a worse place to live. Maybe that's true, my intentions are good, my logic seems sound to me, I have apparent verifiable proof throughout history of genocide and murder, etc.

But, without a time machine, how could I really know? This is probably way too off course now - but how could we ever be assured that our carrot is not poisonous to us or others? How do we know we want to eat it? We all chase it - but we all create it at the same time.

I really wish I could get some insight into this. Self psychology is unverifiable too, like my carrot.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 08:12 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;131098 wrote:
I am sorry for not having kept up with this thread, or any others. I do apologize.

I don't think I feel alone here when I say that the carrot, the "purpose" of life, seems to be farther and farther away the more I try to grab it.

Even if one person on this entire forum somehow created some paradigm shift or some other ultimate success in "philosophy" what has been achieved? Does achievement count if it isn't tangible? Such as losing weight, writing a novel, directing a movie, or having investments pay off.

I do think the carrot is universal. I think it is human nature to want the future to be better than the present or past. Improvement of society, of the world, however vague and hopeless that is, has been my "carrot" to try to attain. In my own small way, and all of us in our own small way, help make it a better place - and sometimes even a worse place, even if we don't know it.

Thus I am on a tangent, but the saying remains I think "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

All of us on this forum, I think, have good intentions. Our friends and family, be they liberal or conservative, religious or not, some label or another have mostly good intentions wouldn't you say? But, as an atheist, I used to say religion made the world a worse place to live. Maybe that's true, my intentions are good, my logic seems sound to me, I have apparent verifiable proof throughout history of genocide and murder, etc.

But, without a time machine, how could I really know? This is probably way too off course now - but how could we ever be assured that our carrot is not poisonous to us or others? How do we know we want to eat it? We all chase it - but we all create it at the same time.

I really wish I could get some insight into this. Self psychology is unverifiable too, like my carrot.


I do think that you have made a very good point. If you knew the truth you would be the only one with it and no regular person would seem to realy care to listen to you as they have far greater things to pay attention to than ethics. The only way you would find a group of people to talk about it is to come to a site as this.

The common man has no interest in ethics as a science or anything close to it. It seems as if everyone is content with their frame of mind regardless if there was a better way to live. I do think that Deepthought has a point though. I have tried not to give answers to anything but rather questions. If I were to give a answer it would be that It would take thinkers like all of you here on this forum to create shift in ethis as I am not sure if one person could pull it off by him or herself and the layman could care less to give it a thought. I do not blame them for not trying to advance in ethics as these are our mothers fathers brothers sisters and all the rest of our realitives friend and neighbors
I am not sure that biology has treated them the same as it has treated some of you. Maybe you men and ladies are the only ones that have the interest to study philosophy and it is just some sort of genetic thing that you have been so lucky to recieive as most do not have the gift as you have to question every thing in the field of ethics.Smile
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 22 Feb, 2010 10:57 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;131098 wrote:
I am sorry for not having kept up with this thread, or any others. I do apologize.

I don't think I feel alone here when I say that the carrot, the "purpose" of life, seems to be farther and farther away the more I try to grab it.

Even if one person on this entire forum somehow created some paradigm shift or some other ultimate success in "philosophy" what has been achieved? Does achievement count if it isn't tangible? Such as losing weight, writing a novel, directing a movie, or having investments pay off.

I do think the carrot is universal. I think it is human nature to want the future to be better than the present or past. Improvement of society, of the world, however vague and hopeless that is, has been my "carrot" to try to attain. In my own small way, and all of us in our own small way, help make it a better place - and sometimes even a worse place, even if we don't know it.

Thus I am on a tangent, but the saying remains I think "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

All of us on this forum, I think, have good intentions. Our friends and family, be they liberal or conservative, religious or not, some label or another have mostly good intentions wouldn't you say? But, as an atheist, I used to say religion made the world a worse place to live. Maybe that's true, my intentions are good, my logic seems sound to me, I have apparent verifiable proof throughout history of genocide and murder, etc.

But, without a time machine, how could I really know? This is probably way too off course now - but how could we ever be assured that our carrot is not poisonous to us or others? How do we know we want to eat it? We all chase it - but we all create it at the same time.

I really wish I could get some insight into this. Self psychology is unverifiable too, like my carrot.


This is a deep post. You tackled some real issues.The carrot's "trickery" is justified by the ecstasy it sometimes inspires. The carrot is Santa Clause for grownups, except this Santa Clause is half-real, because the dream cuts into reality. The dream shapes reality. The carrot as the kernel of spirit/idol. Does spirit exist except in relation to an idol? Every spirit has a determinate face, if only an equation.

I don't think verification is primarily logical. I think this is the ideal, but this ideal reminds me of the knife who despised the hand he was in.

We don't know if our carrot is poisonous except for when we do know. I think of certainty as an emotion and its associated conceptual content. It's true for us, while we believe it. Including this idea on the matter. Incidentally, I think intangible achievements are some of the most impressive.
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:05 am
@Reconstructo,
reasoning logic,

I think the laymen has the ability, as any of us, to tackle philosophical issues. I am not saying that we all can be Einstein, there is some genetics / nature to the equation I am sure. Since the field of philosophy has been introduced there have been mass discrepancies in human equality. Philosophy, at first, was reserved for the top dogs, wasn't it?

I think that has remained somewhat of a trend in the West, but it certainly has gotten better, and now the opportunity exists for anyone to study philosophy, to some extent; because of that I can see why you would say we're special compared to the laymen.

But I think we have to examine the environment the laymen is brought up in. From the get go your average citizen is brought up on cheeseburgers and television. Gadgets and technology are an ever growing presence in people's lives, but the more smart things they rely on the dumber they get (sorta). Technology, society, the machine as some would say, has made life "easy" for people.

You grow up, go to public school, then go to college, then get a job, then retire. That's the usual prescribed plan of "success" in this society, and materialistically speaking we've made it the most "guaranteed" way of putting a roof over your head.

Since financial independence is touted as success, and since we are bombarded by advertising, and we have many gadgets to entertain us with, then why the need for philosophy? What could possibly interest a laymen to take time away from doing something "fun" to study deep, far away, intangible precepts and axioms for living life?

This has been a long ramble, but I'll make my point clear. The laymen would be interested in philosophy if he/she wasn't bred and molded by the hands of the system to be a cog in the wheel or consumer of food, sex, and entertainment. These people have been told from 5 - 18 in public schools for the most part that the USA is #1! We are free! We have prosperity and all kinds of cool stuff to do! They don't talk about military industrial complexes in public education nor any typical class in higher education. Anything else like slavery, civil rights, workers rights, is mentioned as a blip in history that we fixed, so there's nothing to worry about. These same kids go home all these years and veg out, bored from school. That habit is learned, it becomes a way of life, and those same kids grow up to come home from work and veg out.

Zombies is what we're bred to be, and I know that sounds somewhat Glenn Beck or crazy, and I'm not saying someone had the forethought to create this evil plot or something.

But I do believe if you change public education, or maybe even remove it, and you have people that can learn on their own, can occupy themselves, can question things without relying on authority for the answers, don't have this idea that liberty and justice for all beat into your head when, as a country, to get our cheap ****, and money, we externalize the debt and near-slave labor to other third world countries.

Public School teaches no one to think, but the ability to think is the necessary precept for philosophy and the betterment of life for humanity in the first place.

But this has been too long a rant, and I will cease and desist.

(School teaches you to memorize and regurgitate facts, pay attention, work in groups, obey the rules, be on time, be organized - all things that transfer later into the workplace. It doesn't teach you to cherish life, or nature, or understand matter [and thus any capital, really] cannot be created or destroyed, just the costs externalized. John Taylor Gatto is an interesting read on the subject, and origination, of public education.)

I also will advise watching Manufactured Landscapes if you have the patience for cinematography / photography in a documentary without a lot of narration.

Last edit: And of course, all this may very well be BS. This rant, and the viewpoints it contains, are some of my preconceptions I have developed, maybe regretfully, in my pursuit of my carrot. Is it poisonous? Is our consumption not that bad? Our commoditization? Our way of life? Has thought itself, my precept for philosophy, responsible for the mess we are in now? In some ways it is, but was that thought with good intentions? Many questions...

---------- Post added 02-23-2010 at 11:17 AM ----------

Reconstructo;131293 wrote:
This is a deep post. You tackled some real issues.The carrot's "trickery" is justified by the ecstasy it sometimes inspires. The carrot is Santa Clause for grownups, except this Santa Clause is half-real, because the dream cuts into reality. The dream shapes reality. The carrot as the kernel of spirit/idol. Does spirit exist except in relation to an idol? Every spirit has a determinate face, if only an equation.

I don't think verification is primarily logical. I think this is the ideal, but this ideal reminds me of the knife who despised the hand he was in.

We don't know if our carrot is poisonous except for when we do know. I think of certainty as an emotion and its associated conceptual content. It's true for us, while we believe it. Including this idea on the matter. Incidentally, I think intangible achievements are some of the most impressive.


I think hindisight is 20/20 is the best way to describe a poisonous carrot. Think of people who fall for get rich quick schemes, or multi level marketing, pyramid schemes. Those people are told this is your carrot, chase it! And they do. Only afterwards, like lottery winners for the most part, do they realize that they didn't want what they pursued - and in many cases are out of something in the process of pursuit, namely time and money.

Intangible achievements are some of the best. They are also free sometimes, or close. Like love. That's basically free, no one can sell it, they can only sell imitated representations of it (porn, prostitution, etc).

It's funny how our dreams shape reality. Some see the government as a benevolent force for good, and name a president and I am sure there are fans. Others have opposing viewpoints. Sometimes, the viewpoints in discussion are a distraction from real issues. Political gossip, basically. It takes a practiced mind to discern what matters, and what doesn't. What carrot to pursue, which is poisonous, which to share with others, etc.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 08:18 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;131395 wrote:

I think hindisight is 20/20 is the best way to describe a poisonous carrot. Think of people who fall for get rich quick schemes, or multi level marketing, pyramid schemes. Those people are told this is your carrot, chase it! And they do. Only afterwards, like lottery winners for the most part, do they realize that they didn't want what they pursued - and in many cases are out of something in the process of pursuit, namely time and money.

Intangible achievements are some of the best. They are also free sometimes, or close. Like love. That's basically free, no one can sell it, they can only sell imitated representations of it (porn, prostitution, etc).

It's funny how our dreams shape reality. Some see the government as a benevolent force for good, and name a president and I am sure there are fans. Others have opposing viewpoints. Sometimes, the viewpoints in discussion are a distraction from real issues. Political gossip, basically. It takes a practiced mind to discern what matters, and what doesn't. What carrot to pursue, which is poisonous, which to share with others, etc.


Excellent post. For me, philosophy has an intangible value as love does, or music. Of course it also leads to tangible values, as the sciences are the children of philosophy. Your last paragraph especially reminds me of Socrates. Yes, those are the great issues. One could call them "existential" or "ethical-political." In any case, how can we not be philosophical? I suspect that we are always already living some philosophy but that some are hardly conscious of the ideology/assumptions they live by. I won't go as far as to say that "the unexamined life is not worth living," but I will say that for me examination was at first necessary for survival and finally a great pleasure and enhancement to life.

I also agree that schools don't teach thinking as much as they teach memorization. I am however grateful I learned to read. That's when the most exciting part of my education began. To face that difficult book alone. The solitude of interpretation is almost holy. I can't help but associate the intellectual with the sacred -- if only in a measured way. I take a holistic view on the issue. Thought and feeling are not as separate as some pretend. It's passion that drives inquiry and expression.

Thanks for the conversation! Glad you're around!
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 09:51 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;131682 wrote:
Excellent post. For me, philosophy has an intangible value as love does, or music. Of course it also leads to tangible values, as the sciences are the children of philosophy. Your last paragraph especially reminds me of Socrates. Yes, those are the great issues. One could call them "existential" or "ethical-political." In any case, how can we not be philosophical? I suspect that we are always already living some philosophy but that some are hardly conscious of the ideology/assumptions they live by. I won't go as far as to say that "the unexamined life is not worth living," but I will say that for me examination was at first necessary for survival and finally a great pleasure and enhancement to life.

I also agree that schools don't teach thinking as much as they teach memorization. I am however grateful I learned to read. That's when the most exciting part of my education began. To face that difficult book alone. The solitude of interpretation is almost holy. I can't help but associate the intellectual with the sacred -- if only in a measured way. I take a holistic view on the issue. Thought and feeling are not as separate as some pretend. It's passion that drives inquiry and expression.

Thanks for the conversation! Glad you're around!



I think it's hard for any of us now to imagine a life without any self-examination, self-psychology, or philosophy - whichever you want to call our trains of thought. I have certain friends that are nothing like you and I in the sense that they are interested in inquiry into themselves or anything else, really. These people, which sad to say, are almost all of my friends (and family) except maybe two or three, "go along to get along."

If I really sit here and think about it, the people of the world, or at the very least the US, it's strange. Most of my friends and family don't examine their own lives, so in our eyes (perhaps) they haven't molded themselves at all. But, IMHO, everyone has to be molded, everyone develops. Someone or something has to do it. Usually, it's the distractions in most of my friends and family's life that does it for them - distractions and obligations.

School / work and "leisure" time. My best friend of 20 years was an excellent student in school. He was 2nd or 3rd in the graduating class, I was in the lower third of the graduating class because, especially at my hormonal time in HS, I didn't care and showed it. He did. He graduated with a masters in accounting and now has a nice paying, bonuses included, desk job. I deliver pizza, lol.

However - during the time he was putting all his effort into memorization, regurgitation, and passing standardized tests (I have never taken the SAT), I was working regular joe jobs. I had an amazing experience the first time I kissed a girl, had a date, fell in love, and connected with another human being on a very emotional level - all with the same girl. I had to buy cheap cars as I had cheap money, but taught myself how to work on them. Same with computers, although that started when I was a kid. I got into many hobbies, many interests, read many books, and found out a lot about myself and others, religion, etc in the process of enjoying my free time since I wasn't studying and/or working all the time and devoting all passion towards the pursuit of financial independence.

And if we were both to die today, I would not hesitate at all to say I had lived a more fulfilled life. And that's really what boggles me is that so many people in this world are so willing to keep status quo. To go along to get along. If someone else says school is a good idea, and you are smart because you got an A, or you are a success because you have a perfect credit score - some imaginary number somewhere - then people jump through those hoops like life is some circus act.

Relying on authority for anything you put in your brain is a bad idea, IMHO. If you let anyone else tell you what to think, then what use are you as a person? You are a warm body with moving appendages that can perform complex tasks to profit a government (war, or other things) or corporation. These people are always bored, like my friend. Incessant boredom. For years I have heard nothing but random complaints of boredom, either at work, or at home. What these people can't understand, because of these reasons, is that you have the power to think for yourself and be as "smart" as the "smart" people you have been taught to rely on and obey. Most of my friends actually think they are powerless. They don't care to discuss philosophy at all, or politics, or anything remotely close because they fail to see the point.

To me, this is what is frustrating. I cannot talk to people I have known 20 years, or family I have known for 24, about the real world subjects that affect billions of people. I can talk about studies done on television, or advertising, and they will roll their eyes a bit or sort of listen to shut me up - then twenty seconds later talk about an episode of Conan O'Brien. Or whatever else is a distraction from the real. It's sad, but what can I do?

Is the only way to get people to start thinking, and be philosophically minded, to make it a reality TV show with scantily clad women? Or, for my friend, do we have to create some high paying desk job that uses Excel formulas for philosophy? How many people that follow prescribed plans in life, that go with the flock of sheep down the traveled path, really live life?

What place does philosophy have in these new Roman-esque times?

Also, like you, I enjoy reading and am grateful for having learned to do it. I do not know how much school helped out, but I am sure it did. I certainly agree that passion drives inquiry and expression. But how could someone have real passion or drive when it's caged and boxed in, mentally and physically, to work in a cube looking at rows of boxes in Excel. Or doing any other demeaning, IMHO, work. The funny thing is, the machine works. It does what it's intended. Dell makes a computer cheaper than I can due to mass production. But you can't get something for nothing. Someone or something has had to be sacrificed to attain that mass production.

The destruction of the human spirit for the sake of the system is just one of many externalized costs not factored into our economy. It's an intangible quality as well, and therefore doesn't matter if it can't be put in Excel.

Life just needs balance, and we have relied on tangible means to fulfill intangible desires - and it doesn't work.


edit: I read your post again and forgot about music. Art is a very good point to bring up. Art imitates life, it is an expression of life from the point of view of the artist/artists, right? I think that those who fail to understand themselves, or life, or the depths and/or beauty of their own life cannot grasp art for what it is. I can tear up at music, it is so good. Like books, I can find new music to experience daily. If you have passion and a mind you will never be bored. Ever. Bored people are boring people.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 04:28 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;131831 wrote:
I think it's hard for any of us now to imagine a life without any self-examination, self-psychology, or philosophy - whichever you want to call our trains of thought. I have certain friends that are nothing like you and I in the sense that they are interested in inquiry into themselves or anything else, really. These people, which sad to say, are almost all of my friends (and family) except maybe two or three, "go along to get along."

If I really sit here and think about it, the people of the world, or at the very least the US, it's strange. Most of my friends and family don't examine their own lives, so in our eyes (perhaps) they haven't molded themselves at all. But, IMHO, everyone has to be molded, everyone develops. Someone or something has to do it. Usually, it's the distractions in most of my friends and family's life that does it for them - distractions and obligations.

School / work and "leisure" time. My best friend of 20 years was an excellent student in school. He was 2nd or 3rd in the graduating class, I was in the lower third of the graduating class because, especially at my hormonal time in HS, I didn't care and showed it. He did. He graduated with a masters in accounting and now has a nice paying, bonuses included, desk job. I deliver pizza, lol.

However - during the time he was putting all his effort into memorization, regurgitation, and passing standardized tests (I have never taken the SAT), I was working regular joe jobs. I had an amazing experience the first time I kissed a girl, had a date, fell in love, and connected with another human being on a very emotional level - all with the same girl. I had to buy cheap cars as I had cheap money, but taught myself how to work on them. Same with computers, although that started when I was a kid. I got into many hobbies, many interests, read many books, and found out a lot about myself and others, religion, etc in the process of enjoying my free time since I wasn't studying and/or working all the time and devoting all passion towards the pursuit of financial independence.

And if we were both to die today, I would not hesitate at all to say I had lived a more fulfilled life. And that's really what boggles me is that so many people in this world are so willing to keep status quo. To go along to get along. If someone else says school is a good idea, and you are smart because you got an A, or you are a success because you have a perfect credit score - some imaginary number somewhere - then people jump through those hoops like life is some circus act.

Relying on authority for anything you put in your brain is a bad idea, IMHO. If you let anyone else tell you what to think, then what use are you as a person? You are a warm body with moving appendages that can perform complex tasks to profit a government (war, or other things) or corporation. These people are always bored, like my friend. Incessant boredom. For years I have heard nothing but random complaints of boredom, either at work, or at home. What these people can't understand, because of these reasons, is that you have the power to think for yourself and be as "smart" as the "smart" people you have been taught to rely on and obey. Most of my friends actually think they are powerless. They don't care to discuss philosophy at all, or politics, or anything remotely close because they fail to see the point.

To me, this is what is frustrating. I cannot talk to people I have known 20 years, or family I have known for 24, about the real world subjects that affect billions of people. I can talk about studies done on television, or advertising, and they will roll their eyes a bit or sort of listen to shut me up - then twenty seconds later talk about an episode of Conan O'Brien. Or whatever else is a distraction from the real. It's sad, but what can I do?

Is the only way to get people to start thinking, and be philosophically minded, to make it a reality TV show with scantily clad women? Or, for my friend, do we have to create some high paying desk job that uses Excel formulas for philosophy? How many people that follow prescribed plans in life, that go with the flock of sheep down the traveled path, really live life?

What place does philosophy have in these new Roman-esque times?

Also, like you, I enjoy reading and am grateful for having learned to do it. I do not know how much school helped out, but I am sure it did. I certainly agree that passion drives inquiry and expression. But how could someone have real passion or drive when it's caged and boxed in, mentally and physically, to work in a cube looking at rows of boxes in Excel. Or doing any other demeaning, IMHO, work. The funny thing is, the machine works. It does what it's intended. Dell makes a computer cheaper than I can due to mass production. But you can't get something for nothing. Someone or something has had to be sacrificed to attain that mass production.

The destruction of the human spirit for the sake of the system is just one of many externalized costs not factored into our economy. It's an intangible quality as well, and therefore doesn't matter if it can't be put in Excel.

Life just needs balance, and we have relied on tangible means to fulfill intangible desires - and it doesn't work.


edit: I read your post again and forgot about music. Art is a very good point to bring up. Art imitates life, it is an expression of life from the point of view of the artist/artists, right? I think that those who fail to understand themselves, or life, or the depths and/or beauty of their own life cannot grasp art for what it is. I can tear up at music, it is so good. Like books, I can find new music to experience daily. If you have passion and a mind you will never be bored. Ever. Bored people are boring people.


bmcreider You share some of the same view points as me and others I am sure. "That is that we are far and few. Most people could care less about questiong there personal paradygm or there social paradygm. "That is to step out side of the [box] and question it. They are happy and content just as they are. Or could it be that your brain is wired just a litle different than theirs?Smile
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 04:35 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;131831 wrote:
Bored people are boring people.

Ain't that the truth.

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 05:39 PM ----------

bmcreider;131831 wrote:

However - during the time he was putting all his effort into memorization, regurgitation, and passing standardized tests (I have never taken the SAT), I was working regular joe jobs. I had an amazing experience the first time I kissed a girl, had a date, fell in love, and connected with another human being on a very emotional level - all with the same girl. I had to buy cheap cars as I had cheap money, but taught myself how to work on them. Same with computers, although that started when I was a kid. I got into many hobbies, many interests, read many books, and found out a lot about myself and others, religion, etc in the process of enjoying my free time since I wasn't studying and/or working all the time and devoting all passion towards the pursuit of financial independence.

My life is not too far from this. I always just wanted TIME. I wanted to be left alone by all the boring petty bullshit of life. I want ascension! Also met the right girl young. I aced standardized tests, didn't do homework. Troubled kid wrestling with spiritual issues and extreme eros (not just lust). Both believing in myself more than anyone and hating myself more than most, for failing nigh-impossible self-ideals. Modifications of the carrot!

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 05:45 PM ----------

bmcreider;131831 wrote:

Is the only way to get people to start thinking, and be philosophically minded, to make it a reality TV show with scantily clad women? Or, for my friend, do we have to create some high paying desk job that uses Excel formulas for philosophy? How many people that follow prescribed plans in life, that go with the flock of sheep down the traveled path, really live life?

What place does philosophy have in these new Roman-esque times?


They live life, but not as abundantly. Or so it seems. For me, much was gained by making peace with mess. It's like that story in the gospel (great book for atheists/agnostics too). Talents (a form of money which became metaphorically "talent") were given in unequal measure. I think if we do our best to manifest the brighter aspects of spirit, we are doing all we can. In my opinion, negation is not persuasive. One must show the alternative. "Wisdom makes a man's face shine." I'm one more guy following a tributary back to its source. More "wisdom/love/knowledge." More life. The spirit as the arrow of Eros.
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 05:27 pm
@Reconstructo,
reasoning logic;131987 wrote:
bmcreider You share some of the same view points as me and others I am sure. "That is that we are far and few. Most people could care less about questiong there personal paradygm or there social paradygm. "That is to step out side of the [box] and question it. They are happy and content just as they are. Or could it be that your brain is wired just a litle different than theirs?Smile


I have heard many close people say that you, the others on this forum, and myself are somehow wired differently. Somehow, we are genetically fortunate to have our perceived mental prowess. We all think about things differently on this forum, and by that I mean somewhat differently from each other, and most all of us think very differently than a "typical" member of society. I would hope that there is no physical, neurological difference between me and a "typical" person - just that I have been fortunate enough, if that's the word, to grasp the real world around me - or so it seems, lol.

Reconstructo;131990 wrote:
My life is not too far from this. I always just wanted TIME. I wanted to be left alone by all the boring petty bullshit of life. I want ascension! Also met the right girl young. I aced standardized tests, didn't do homework. Troubled kid wrestling with spiritual issues and extreme eros (not just lust). Both believing in myself more than anyone and hating myself more than most, for failing nigh-impossible self-ideals. Modifications of the carrot!

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 05:45 PM ----------

They live life, but not as abundantly. Or so it seems. For me, much was gained by making peace with mess. It's like that story in the gospel (great book for atheists/agnostics too). Talents (a form of money which became metaphorically "talent") were given in unequal measure. I think if we do our best to manifest the brighter aspects of spirit, we are doing all we can. In my opinion, negation is not persuasive. One must show the alternative. "Wisdom makes a man's face shine." I'm one more guy following a tributary back to its source. More "wisdom/love/knowledge." More life. The spirit as the arrow of Eros.


I am pleasantly surprised, although I shouldn't be, that someone can really comprehend what I mean when I go off on tangents - and be able to relate. My first lady friend I mentioned in my previous post has since moved on, it was for the best, but that's the point of life. It was a wonderful, emotional roller coaster of learning. I hate to say this, as it sounds ever more demeaning, but people like my good friend who have taken the financial success -only- path has severe misconceptions about women. Partly due to the culture his parents are from, but mostly from a lack of experience himself. Which, possibly, his culture perpetuates. I dunno for sure. But, he objectifies women, and (this may be TMI) recently had his first "physical encounter" if you will - but it was asked for via text message, played out in the back of his car IIRC, and when he was done he got up and left. Didn't talk to her again until the next time he got an urge - and within 2 weeks was done with her altogether and is now looking for the next "notch" if you will.

This will sound silly - but I swear some people like him go from the girls have cooties to "fags" have cooties, sorta speak, and thus they never really treat anything perceived as feminine with respect. Women are half of humanity, they are the balance to our species, they need to be explored, cherished, and treasured just as the men should be by them.

I have since found the perfect, as perfect as anyone deserves, woman; been together nearly two years and if you think I ramble here - lol, I ramble a lot to her.

I also find myself in the same battle of wits you are, internally, a lot of times. Inner peace seems hard to hold onto. At one end I think of myself as evolved in some sense or another, able to enjoy certain things, or enjoy learning - but then find myself still delivering pizza at 24 years old, and dissapointing certain people (namely parents, or otherwise) because of it.

Your last paragraph reminds me of that peace, since you mention coming to terms with reality. That I also find hard to do, as I want to change it for the better (or so I think, the carrot bit), so I wouldn't want to settle for a lesser world. I dunno if that makes any sense, but I tell my friends who think I talk about it too much, "if everyone talked about it, we, or I, wouldn't have so much to complain about." Unfortunately, I think people are disenfranchised not only to politics, but philosophy, and some even love, friends, or family.

I also think I am too negative at times, and therefore, we are back to that inner struggle. I am too negative about the world, but the world is too negative for me to accept. If I thought I was making progress I suppose I would be at peace knowing it was getting better - but typing on forums or talking to people is a meager weapon against mass media, it seems.

I also want ascension, more life, as you say. Life isn't meant to have the volume turned down for the sake of security, IMHO. Accepting death is a necessary precept to live life, or so I think.

Thank you for reading...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 08:26 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;132019 wrote:

This will sound silly - but I swear some people like him go from the girls have cooties to "fags" have cooties, sorta speak, and thus they never really treat anything perceived as feminine with respect. Women are half of humanity, they are the balance to our species, they need to be explored, cherished, and treasured just as the men should be by them.

This is a great point. The femininity issue is crucial. A fully developed person has sublimated both their masculine and feminine aspects. The great thing about relationships is that the genders absorb one another's virtues as they dispense with projections. Do you know Jung? He's great on this. The anima must be introjected. We are born projecting projecting projecting. We live in a world of illusions. SLowly and painfully, and also sometimes ecstatic and blissfully, we differentiate the fantasy from the person really there. And this applies perhaps most importantly to ourselves. A good woman is a treasure beyond compare. My wife is composing music in the other room. How fortunate we both were to work through all the illusion, confusion, and pain that seems to me to be necessary. "Spiritual"- emotional growing pains. Your friend is stuck in the Eve phase. Woman as sexual object and nothing more. Or so it seems.

---------- Post added 02-25-2010 at 09:28 PM ----------

bmcreider;132019 wrote:

I have since found the perfect, as perfect as anyone deserves, woman; been together nearly two years and if you think I ramble here - lol, I ramble a lot to her.

Sincere congratulations! I know how excellent that is. Ramble away. I love to see women celebrated. Not all of them deserve celebration but not all of us men deserve a woman worth celebrated. I don't think it's a coincidence that woman celebrators get women worth celebrating.

---------- Post added 02-25-2010 at 09:36 PM ----------

bmcreider;132019 wrote:

I also find myself in the same battle of wits you are, internally, a lot of times. Inner peace seems hard to hold onto. At one end I think of myself as evolved in some sense or another, able to enjoy certain things, or enjoy learning - but then find myself still delivering pizza at 24 years old, and dissapointing certain people (namely parents, or otherwise) because of it.

I'm 33. I currently am waiting tables. I have delivered pizzas. Same general thing. Tips tips tips. A cash economy. Better money than the average crap wage job, but "no future," right?

Generally I couldn't be happier. I've dodged an amazing amount of time-suckage (time is the ultimate resource for a man who is conscious of his mortality). I've spent years and years reading the books I love, founding and performing in bands, partying, spending quality time with the lady. I tell you this, my slightly younger friend, the 30s have been like a ripening. All the information and theory and experience are coming together. I'm grateful to be alive. In my twenties I wrestled with the Devil, to speak symbolically. I was godless and free and disgusted with this spiritless society (what I knew of it at the time). The ideal burned in me. Like a hot coal in the soul-mind that goads evolution. Man is the metaphysical animal, says Schopenhauer. He knows that he must die. He craves craves purposes. We've got a built-in numen projector. We must find "God" or "Truth" or "Self" or "Beauty." And I think we do, eventually. As I'm sure you know.

---------- Post added 02-25-2010 at 09:39 PM ----------

bmcreider;132019 wrote:

I also want ascension, more life, as you say. Life isn't meant to have the volume turned down for the sake of security, IMHO. Accepting death is a necessary precept to live life, or so I think.

Thank you for reading...


Being-toward-death as authenticity. I think it's true. (Heidegger) A man's sense of time is different from an animals. I think ascension is a natural process, and the more conscious one is that this is the goal, the faster one approaches it. I went from being the most tormented person I knew, in my twenties, to the happiest person I know.

---------- Post added 02-25-2010 at 09:45 PM ----------

bmcreider;132019 wrote:

Your last paragraph reminds me of that peace, since you mention coming to terms with reality. That I also find hard to do, as I want to change it for the better (or so I think, the carrot bit), so I wouldn't want to settle for a lesser world. I dunno if that makes any sense, but I tell my friends who think I talk about it too much, "if everyone talked about it, we, or I, wouldn't have so much to complain about." Unfortunately, I think people are disenfranchised not only to politics, but philosophy, and some even love, friends, or family.

It's the like the Tao says. "You want to change the world? I don't think it can be changed." It has to be viewed, in my opinion, as a totality." To man, some things are good and others evil. To god, all things are good."
Heraclitus. Also the end of the book of Job. Of course I'm an agnostic, or someone that thinks that man is god. But "god" is a great symbol for "the nature of things." "The sun shines on the just and the unjust."

In my opinion, we simply have to let it go. In my opinion, kindness and self-development are good enough. The world is too big. To manifest intelligent words in the absence of joy is a mixed message. If a man wants to persuade, he must persuade by his happiness as much as his words. This was my solution to the moral quandary you mention. I don't know if it will you do any good, but I offer it humbly.
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Fri 26 Feb, 2010 09:40 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;132620 wrote:
This is a great point. The femininity issue is crucial. A fully developed person has sublimated both their masculine and feminine aspects. The great thing about relationships is that the genders absorb one another's virtues as they dispense with projections. Do you know Jung? He's great on this. The anima must be introjected. We are born projecting projecting projecting. We live in a world of illusions. SLowly and painfully, and also sometimes ecstatic and blissfully, we differentiate the fantasy from the person really there. And this applies perhaps most importantly to ourselves. A good woman is a treasure beyond compare. My wife is composing music in the other room. How fortunate we both were to work through all the illusion, confusion, and pain that seems to me to be necessary. "Spiritual"- emotional growing pains. Your friend is stuck in the Eve phase. Woman as sexual object and nothing more. Or so it seems.


That is some definite insight there; I can tell you have been at this for a while. Do you think that it is necessary to enter into a relationship with women (or whatever your preference) in order to develop spiritually. IE, can you be as spiritually awakened, sorta speak, without 'pair bonding'? I would have to say no. I am glad you also have found someone to wake up with in the mornings. I like to think of Jackie, my lady friend, as an anchor of happiness and security. No matter what happens in the external world, I have someone for support - and so does she.

Reconstructo;132620 wrote:

Sincere congratulations! I know how excellent that is. Ramble away. I love to see women celebrated. Not all of them deserve celebration but not all of us men deserve a woman worth celebrated. I don't think it's a coincidence that woman celebrators get women worth celebrating.


Is that just a small example of the carrot? In a relationship sense, I wish to have an admirable partner, and thus that helps make it a reality. I am sure this could go both ways. I am sure some of my acquaintances / friends see women a little differently, sometimes as objects, and in return achieve women who think of themselves in the same way.

Reconstructo;132620 wrote:

I'm 33. I currently am waiting tables. I have delivered pizzas. Same general thing. Tips tips tips. A cash economy. Better money than the average crap wage job, but "no future," right?

Generally I couldn't be happier. I've dodged an amazing amount of time-suckage (time is the ultimate resource for a man who is conscious of his mortality). I've spent years and years reading the books I love, founding and performing in bands, partying, spending quality time with the lady. I tell you this, my slightly younger friend, the 30s have been like a ripening. All the information and theory and experience are coming together. I'm grateful to be alive. In my twenties I wrestled with the Devil, to speak symbolically. I was godless and free and disgusted with this spiritless society (what I knew of it at the time). The ideal burned in me. Like a hot coal in the soul-mind that goads evolution. Man is the metaphysical animal, says Schopenhauer. He knows that he must die. He craves craves purposes. We've got a built-in numen projector. We must find "God" or "Truth" or "Self" or "Beauty." And I think we do, eventually. As I'm sure you know.


When did you stop, if you ever started, worrying about your "career" or "financial security" or "retirement" or any of that kinda thing? My job does afford me time, as yours does, and its lack of real responsibility (no Blackberry) means I get real time off when I'm away. However, I still wonder why I spend as much time such a seemingly "meaningless" place.

I have no idea the amount to which you wrestled with the world in your twenties, but I do feel I can relate. It seems a daily challenge to try to understand more about the world, to bring everything together concisely, without finding deeper and more complicated problems about it. The more documentaries I watch, for instance, the more bad news. The more I read this forum, the more questions are asked, answers obliterated, and eeks of hopelessness will knock at my door. This is progress, but I don't want it at the cost of sanity or happiness. I feel I would be turning my back as many smart people do now and have done, though, if I just "selfishly" focus on myself and say to the world - sorry, I can't do anything about it.

Although, perhaps you are right. You probably are, and I am just too young in spirit to come to terms with reality, no matter how grim it may seem (Economy, society, morality, spirituality, war, genocide, whichever). I guess, to me, it seems the "good things" in life are felt on the individual level, that everyone can grasp them. IE: I bet people living in slums in India may be happier than some people with corner offices in America. It's just that, I feel that the good things in life are lucky breaks from the 'reality' that is forced upon so many people. Who in the world is truly free? And would I be "giving in" to accept that most people live under some system without their best interests at heart, and that we as a species may bring ourselves to extinction - and move on with enjoying my own life? I suppose I also feel guilty for the time I wasted doing just that for 21 years, but can you blame a child for not caring about Darfur Wink?


Reconstructo;132620 wrote:
Being-toward-death as authenticity. I think it's true. (Heidegger) A man's sense of time is different from an animals. I think ascension is a natural process, and the more conscious one is that this is the goal, the faster one approaches it. I went from being the most tormented person I knew, in my twenties, to the happiest person I know.

It's the like the Tao says. "You want to change the world? I don't think it can be changed." It has to be viewed, in my opinion, as a totality." To man, some things are good and others evil. To god, all things are good."
Heraclitus. Also the end of the book of Job. Of course I'm an agnostic, or someone that thinks that man is god. But "god" is a great symbol for "the nature of things." "The sun shines on the just and the unjust."

In my opinion, we simply have to let it go. In my opinion, kindness and self-development are good enough. The world is too big. To manifest intelligent words in the absence of joy is a mixed message. If a man wants to persuade, he must persuade by his happiness as much as his words. This was my solution to the moral quandary you mention. I don't know if it will you do any good, but I offer it humbly.


I think that's why I fail to persuade. I try to convey the gravity of the situation in any blog post, status update, note, forum reply, whatever. I do not try to sugar coat those injustices or mistakes I feel have been or are being made. But am I only conveying the message that the world is full of bad things, and thus pushing people to clam up even more than they already do? Am I the disease that thinks it's a cure? I guess it's hard for me to persuade people to not tolerate injustice with a smile. But, I suppose, one should lead by example because even I say talk is cheap. I come off like a depressed teenager in these replies - but I promise you I do know how to enjoy life, it's just other times I try to improve it for others - maybe to my own deficit.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 27 Feb, 2010 03:18 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;132839 wrote:
Do you think that it is necessary to enter into a relationship with women (or whatever your preference) in order to develop spiritually. IE, can you be as spiritually awakened, sorta speak, without 'pair bonding'?


Personally, I think a relationship with woman, real or imaginary, is necessary for total development. By imaginary I mean the anima, the soul. It's not the biological feminine that matters but the psychological feminine. For me, this long stable relationship I'm in has allowed me to develop my faculties. I worried all the deep questions enough to find some answers. I view philosophy for instance as a union of science and religion.

The religion part (transcendent) is the feminine in my current concept system. The religious emotion is what I call transcendent. But an undeveloped religion (woman) is a worshiper of idols (false gods). The woman (symbolically) is right feeling/wrong concept.

The science aspect of philosophy is man's conceptual self-consciousness (transcendental). He discovers that God is a projection, for instance, and that "reality" isn't known "in-itself," but is processed automatically, as well as consciously. He studies experience to determine this imposed structure, liberating himself from its prejudices. Right concept/ no feeling. Put science and religion together and you have religious feeling with conceptual sophistication. Sort of like developing the two halves of the soul/ mind. Thinking and feeling evolve one another?

---------- Post added 02-27-2010 at 04:25 PM ----------

bmcreider;132839 wrote:

Am I the disease that thinks it's a cure? I guess it's hard for me to persuade people to not tolerate injustice with a smile. But, I suppose, one should lead by example because even I say talk is cheap. I come off like a depressed teenager in these replies - but I promise you I do know how to enjoy life, it's just other times I try to improve it for others - maybe to my own deficit.

From my point of view, you might want to integrate your "dark side." We are all half-evil, you might say. The more we are conscious of our own evil, the less it controls us. "Whatever is unconscious is projected." You seem more conscious than most in many ways, but individuation never ceases. The more we see the evil in ourselves, the less evil the world seems. Jung and Nietzsche helped me through exactly this kind of issue. Just my humble offering.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 27 Feb, 2010 03:27 pm
@Reconstructo,
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 27 Feb, 2010 03:31 pm
@bmcreider,
bmcreider;132839 wrote:

When did you stop, if you ever started, worrying about your "career" or "financial security" or "retirement" or any of that kinda thing?


My whole life I have been so obsessed with the "things of the spirit," that I've never put half of my energy forward toward making it. I've done just enough to stay afloat, trusting in Lord knows what or who knows what Lord? I don't forget for long that I must die. My life has spiritual purpose but this spiritual purpose is intellectual/poetic. I don't know if it will work for you, but for me it has. The "carrot" has changed. The injustice of the world just doesn't affect me much. I don't watch the news anymore. I read great books when I'm not on this forum discussing them. I find that intellectual beauty or gnosis of philosophy works. I don't need god or justice but only the pursuit of Wisdom. (Oh yeah, I've been using the word "numen" for the carrot. The carrot/donkey analogy is an example of transcendental consciousness. We just do need purpose. We just do project some purpose. And to project is to live in the future. The future takes primacy in human time, but that's another thread.

---------- Post added 02-27-2010 at 04:32 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;133331 wrote:


I'm not surprised you have a good woman. See? It seems that Woman is symbolic of what I mean by transcendence, which is a feeling of beauty and perfection......The phallus is the 1? And the woman is an enclosing passionate zero?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 27 Feb, 2010 03:43 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;133332 wrote:
I'm not surprised you have a good woman. See? It seems that Woman is symbolic of what I mean by transcendence, which is a feeling of beauty and perfection......The phallus is the 1? And the woman is an enclosing passionate zero?


...we workout in binary code pretty well...:rolleyes: building our own dimension...
 
bmcreider
 
Reply Sun 28 Feb, 2010 11:15 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;133329 wrote:
Personally, I think a relationship with woman, real or imaginary, is necessary for total development. By imaginary I mean the anima, the soul. It's not the biological feminine that matters but the psychological feminine. For me, this long stable relationship I'm in has allowed me to develop my faculties. I worried all the deep questions enough to find some answers. I view philosophy for instance as a union of science and religion.


I suppose you are right, I just didn't give the thought due diligence regarding feminine and masculine. I do wonder about religion though, as, sad enough to say, my start in anything that could be called consciously thinking about philosophy was with atheism - and leaving Catholicism. That probably started a negative trend, if I'm honest. I can see the value in religious teachings, some, but a lot lack originality. I would say philosophy is a merging of science and spirituality - but that's just because the word religion conjures up the prospect of eternal consequences, of which I don't believe in (at the moment).

Reconstructo;133329 wrote:

The religion part (transcendent) is the feminine in my current concept system. The religious emotion is what I call transcendent. But an undeveloped religion (woman) is a worshiper of idols (false gods). The woman (symbolically) is right feeling/wrong concept.

The science aspect of philosophy is man's conceptual self-consciousness (transcendental). He discovers that God is a projection, for instance, and that "reality" isn't known "in-itself," but is processed automatically, as well as consciously. He studies experience to determine this imposed structure, liberating himself from its prejudices. Right concept/ no feeling. Put science and religion together and you have religious feeling with conceptual sophistication. Sort of like developing the two halves of the soul/ mind. Thinking and feeling evolve one another?


The strange thing is, my mother was into Eastern philosophies / religions at one point in time, and still is somewhat I suppose. She always told me she tried to raise me to think and feel. I wonder if that's a common theme in the East? I really couldn't tell you, at the moment. But I do agree. I would even say thought and emotion are interdependent, which is probably pretty obvious. But thought, or intelligence, without passion is what? Today it's turned into job training, most college graduates, trade school, etc. Who wants to be an accountant with all their heart? Nobody, but it's got good job security Wink. And, feeling without thought is what? I think that explains the exact opposite of my accountant friend, which is my co worker(s). They party, have friends, lovers, and sex abundantly. They seemingly enjoy life, at any opportunity, it's a "celebration" usually involving alcohol. But, without the thought behind it, there is no purpose to that feeling, no direction, and in fact could (and just might) do them and others no favors. IE: Alcoholic liver, weight gain, whichever if not reeled in by conscious thought / discipline. Just a possibility, hoping no bad things come to either friend.

Reconstructo;133329 wrote:

From my point of view, you might want to integrate your "dark side." We are all half-evil, you might say. The more we are conscious of our own evil, the less it controls us. "Whatever is unconscious is projected." You seem more conscious than most in many ways, but individuation never ceases. The more we see the evil in ourselves, the less evil the world seems. Jung and Nietzsche helped me through exactly this kind of issue. Just my humble offering.


This is an interesting concept. I am always pondering the question: Does everyone possess the potential for "enlightenment" or living completely ethically, or at least, recognizing all moral/ethical mistakes and taking steps to correct/prevent them? Or is it just human nature that, most people, at some time, can be real jerks to one another and not give it a second thought? I always thought a part of my carrot was to erode my own evils, or at least try. Self discipline, in a way. Eating healthy, taking better care of myself, quitting bad habits (was a pack-a-day smoker for a few years in my younger days), saving more money, etc. But if we are a balance of good and evil, am I only transferring evil from one side of me to the other?

Reconstructo;133332 wrote:
My whole life I have been so obsessed with the "things of the spirit," that I've never put half of my energy forward toward making it. I've done just enough to stay afloat, trusting in Lord knows what or who knows what Lord? I don't forget for long that I must die. My life has spiritual purpose but this spiritual purpose is intellectual/poetic. I don't know if it will work for you, but for me it has. The "carrot" has changed. The injustice of the world just doesn't affect me much. I don't watch the news anymore. I read great books when I'm not on this forum discussing them. I find that intellectual beauty or gnosis of philosophy works. I don't need god or justice but only the pursuit of Wisdom. (Oh yeah, I've been using the word "numen" for the carrot. The carrot/donkey analogy is an example of transcendental consciousness. We just do need purpose. We just do project some purpose. And to project is to live in the future. The future takes primacy in human time, but that's another thread.


This is the funniest part I read, not comically, just wow. It's obvious to me now that I have changed in more ways than I thought over the past couple/few years. When, as I mentioned earlier, I began my questioning of my religion, it was about 2 years or a little less than election time. 2006. By the time the election was at full brew, I had been enamored with reading Ayn Rand and other politically motivated books. Most more modern than Atlas Shrugged, but, Atlas Shrugged was the first. I watched the news CONSTANTLY, always had AM radio on, always keepin' up with what was going on, always hearing bad news, too.

All the time bad news. I felt myself getting caught up in a system that was doing nothing but making me feel bad about me or others - and possibly set up the whole paradigm I have engraved into myself now that human nature screws things up, the government screws things up, and the majority of people screw things up. At least, back then, politically, I thought that. It has taken some time, and some pondering and pointing the finger at myself, rather than the computer/TV/radio to understand what the real problem was. The real problem, I think, and this will probably change as I age, is that most others point the finger at most others - just as I did. Sure, I had "good reason", but was only being fed what I wanted to hear. What I wanted to hear was, anything wrong with my life, which there is (so said the News), isn't my fault - it's these dumb politicians or drunk drivers or illegals or liberals or whatever.

Today, I hear echos of myself from much older individuals, much more bitter. My father, at any given opportunity, and in awkward fashion, will take a shot at "Obama" if he can. Conservative themed forwards championing Nationalism and dogmatic collectivism are constantly in my inbox.

I decided I didn't want to be that person, and I think my self confidence has suffered momentarily - but it's for the ultimate betterment of myself, and thus, if everyone followed philosophically in similar fashion of self-improvement, we would have world improvement.

Thanks for your time, again, and sharing. I ramble, I know, but just think what the lady has to listen to Wink.
 
 

 
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