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ok i think i get it, i think.
Really? What's the idea? If virtue is a sham, then what motivates people to practice the virtues? Are Temperance, Prudence, Justice, and Fortitude all a sham? Are they not widely acknowledged across various cultures to be good things and worthy of respect?
Hmm, what I think what Icon is saying is that, (I haven't totally grasped it so i could be totally wrong), virtue is a sham because man creates it and you are only virtuous because the situation demands it you're not actually born with it so it's kinda false and thus a sham, (but that's probably totally wrong im so confused, my brain hurts!) i probably need to read more on meno to comment properley. What do you think? Do you think that the virtues you've mentioned are worthy of respect and are good things?
I have no idea what Icon may be trying to say.
Personally I find it undeniable that there are human virtues. What motivates people to be virtuous must vary, as others have emphasized. Whether or not virtuous behavior can be taught is debatable, but I think it can be.
You think it can be taught, how? Myself i recognise what is right and wrong or what is best and act accordingly?
Virtuous behavior must be taught, IMO.
People have a natural inclination towards projecting a sense of virtuousness or anti-virtuousness onto acts, thoughts or objects.
But the specific Virtue Scheme under which one operates, though she is inclined to adopt a scheme a priori, is a product of environmental factors that shape her subconscious worldview.
I think people act virtuous when they do because of prior histories;
the impulse to assign virtue is there naturally, but taking virtuous action emerges from a subconscious pool of prior observation.
I think the issue with Virtue is like most other moral based ideas, in that contrast makes it uncertain to individuals of different perceptions and circumstances. That alone deems Virtue a possible sham. Its pointless though to try to prove either way. That's what makes the matter frustrating.
I think that we see the "teachability" of virtues all the time. Anyone that has raised children and put them through school has seen that if parents and and the school environment both reinforce certain ideas and qualities, then in all likelihood, the children will adopt those ideas and develop those qualities. We teach children to exercise self control, for example, at a very early age. Is that not a virtue? In what sense is that a sham?
Ask Icon............
Sorry Joe! I don't follow you! Let's examine specific cases. Is self control a virtue? I sure wish I had more of it! Looks good to me! I admire people who apparently posses it! I'm very happy with myself when when I feel that I have exercised it, and I'm very unhappy with myself when I feel that I have failed to exercise it (eat too much, drink too much, etc.).
What's your opinion?
You ask if self control is a virtue. No it is not. Not always. Sometimes the virtuous must not control themselves in order to accomplish good. Virtue is a sham because there is no standard for measuring it. All things are subjective in this field of study.
Here is another example... Justice... Was it just for terrorists to attack the twin towers and kill that many people? It all depends on who you ask. Was it Just for America to retort and kill 10 times that many only to get back at a few? Depends on who you ask.
Virtue can never have a standard measure because virtue is entirely subjective.
Greed can be a virtue if it inspires a good act.
Lust can be a virtue if it supplements love.
Pride can be a virtue if it holds to strong mutually beneficial values.
Virtue is a sham because it is nothing which we can guarantee. All virtues are subject to the perception of those who hold them to be virtuous.
These are assertions, not arguments. And the mere fact that you can't measure virtue does not at all lead, logically, to the conclusion that it is a sham.
Variance of opinion is not a sufficient reason to conclude that none of the opinions are intelligent or logical.
Again, these are assertions. Are you suggesting that all things that do not have standard measure, or that involve some degree of subjectivity must be a sham? There's no standard measure for the quality of a piece of art or the quality of the performance of a song, but we don't conclude that the piece of art or the song are shams. As for greed, lust, and pride, your hypothetical examples are not sufficient to support your claim. I would be interested in how you define the terms and examining some specific examples.
The fact that we can't guarantee something doesn't make it a sham. And everything in the world is subject to our individual perceptions. Would you argue that everything in the world is a sham?
I think virtue can be taught but when you're an adult although I know it is right to exercise self-control, (for example), because that's what others think, i exercise self-control because it would make me feel bad if i didnt so i dont do it coz i was taught i do it because it is the right thing to do for myself.
Greed
Pronunciation: \ˈgrēd\
Function: noun
Etymology: back-formation from greedy
Date: 1609
: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed
Pride
Pronunciation: \ˈprīd\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English prȳde, from prūd proud - more at proud
Date: before 12th century
1: the quality or state of being proud: as a: inordinate self-esteem : conceit b: a reasonable or justifiable self-respect c: delight or elation arising from some act, possession, or relationship <parental pride>
Lust
Pronunciation: \ˈləst\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German lust pleasure and perhaps to Latin lascivus wanton
Date: before 12th century
1 obsolete a: pleasure , delight b: personal inclination : wish
2: usu. intense or unbridled sexual desire : lasciviousness
3 a: an intense longing : craving <a lust to succeed> b: enthusiasm , eagerness <admired his lust for life>
A man is so greedy that he dedicates his life to getting more money by creating things which will profit him. In doing so he creates a bit of tech which saves thousands of lives. The man's greed for money created a virtuous act.
A man has so much pride in his apartment that he cannot let a man jump off the roof and sully his reputation so he is able to talk a man down from the edge of a building. He committed a virtuous act out of pride.
A man is so lustful for a woman that he dedicates himself attaining her. They get married, have children and he keeps her happy for all of their days in order to retain his lust. He is a virtuous husband.