What is right and wrong?

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Blind deaf and dumb...WE must sense the world before we can measure it... Moral reality is not physical reality... We see the effects of all moral truths in very subtle causes... But it does not matter whether injustice results in a homicide or in war, because if you look enough at life you can see what becomes of people deprived of justice... The cause is simple to cure, but not easy... People clearly love injustice until they are its victims, and how can anyone stop what so many enjoy????

Make everyone the victim.

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Make everyone the victim.

Well, DUH! We already are... You can't kick humanity without feeling the kick, the pain, or the humilation... Since we cannot win without everyone else losing, let's figure out how we can get through this thing called life in as good a shape with as much fun as possible...Let us celebrate every natural death like every natural birth as a victory for mankind, with bells and whistles, and joy... Life is all we have, and peace and understanding is our common goal...Am I asking too much???

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

Well, DUH! We already are... You can't kick humanity without feeling the kick, the pain, or the humilation... Since we cannot win without everyone else losing, let's figure out how we can get through this thing called life in as good a shape with as much fun as possible...Let us celebrate every natural death like every natural birth as a victory for mankind, with bells and whistles, and joy... Life is all we have, and peace and understanding is our common goal...Am I asking too much???

Yes. You actually are. You are asking people to drop hundreds of years of hate, despise and logic-less dispute. You are asking people to change who they think they are in order to adopt a whole new idea of life. You are asking people to think.

There are certain people who are not geared properly for that sort of thought.

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Yes. You actually are. You are asking people to drop hundreds of years of hate, despise and logic-less dispute. You are asking people to change who they think they are in order to adopt a whole new idea of life. You are asking people to think.

There are certain people who are not geared properly for that sort of thought.

I am not asking people to think; but to understand... Thinking you do with your brain, and understanding is what you do with your whole being...

@Fido,

Fido wrote:

I am not asking people to think; but to understand... Thinking you do with your brain, and understanding is what you do with your whole being...

Which is even harder for most

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

Which is even harder for most

Maybe... If everyone is betting on misunderstanding that might be the way they are pushing...

@hammersklavier,

hmm i'm not sure if this has already been said. I haven't read even through all the parts of the "proof"

"1) All faiths preach there's a right way to live.
2) If there is a right way to live, there must also be a wrong way to live."

So between 1 and 2 the person is assuming that since all faiths preach there is a right way to live then there is a right way to live.

Well why couldn't there be neither right nor wrong way to live?

idk thats just what I was thinking

@click here,

click here wrote:

hmm i'm not sure if this has already been said. I haven't read even through all the parts of the "proof"

"1) All faiths preach there's a right way to live.
2) If there is a right way to live, there must also be a wrong way to live."

So between 1 and 2 the person is assuming that since all faiths preach there is a right way to live then there is a right way to live.

Well why couldn't there be neither right nor wrong way to live?

idk thats just what I was thinking

Everyone's faith is their family, and this is true of even primative peoples; so what religions do is support every natural morality which flows out of community and family... And from that point of view there is certainly a right and wrong way to live, but also sanctions for behavior... Jesus came out of a highly litigious society, for example, with a God not much given to fancy lawyer arguments; and while law occupies a great deal of what we know of Jesus, his argument was much the same as Socrates, that knowledge is virtue, that knowing right demands doing right, and yet, that we should not judge people fortunate or cursed by their wealth and afflictions in life; but blessed or cursed in being able to see beyond these superficialities... We punish and reward certain behavior... This is not because we are Christians, or some other religion, but because this is human behavior, just as much as seeking power over others through religion, or any other means, is human behavior... People know in gross what is good behavior in terms of family and society, and it is that consideration that determines what is right and wrong... I would say the desire to make oneself lord over another for any reason is very wrong, and nothing but evil has come out of it... It is not suddenly evil like violence, or theft; but through time its result is certainly evil... Only free people are able to justly judge their brothers or decide upon their own best interests....

@hammersklavier,

I think it depends on how you look at it. For some religions polygamy is normal stuff for most of us is like a taboo. for us is wring for them is right. For suicidal bombers is allright to kill yourself for what you believe in, Christinas believe if you commit suicide you go to hell... So righand wrong depends on who you are and how you look at it

@DRgenius21,

DRgenius21 wrote:

I think it depends on how you look at it. For some religions polygamy is normal stuff for most of us is like a taboo. for us is wring for them is right. For suicidal bombers is allright to kill yourself for what you believe in, Christinas believe if you commit suicide you go to hell... So righand wrong depends on who you are and how you look at it

All christians have two wives... One is money and one is their bride...

@Fido,

haha, thats hilarious!!! :bigsmile:

@DRgenius21,

DRgenius21 wrote:

haha, thats hilarious!!! :bigsmile:

And the wife has two mates; the one she spends, and the one she hates...

@Fido,

love the humor... but seriously

@DRgenius21,

DRgenius21 wrote:

love the humor... but seriously

They've been know to disappear, mysteriously...

@hammersklavier,

Right and wrong is very subjective and too many variables are involved. From what I've noticed right is usually dictated by the winning majority of society/culture. One's action could be praised by one and condemned by another.

@rambo phil,

rambo wrote:

Right and wrong is very subjective and too many variables are involved. From what I've noticed right is usually dictated by the winning majority of society/culture. One's action could be praised by one and condemned by another.

All moral concepts are subjective... We do not have them as objects, but we can see objective evidence that they exist as when injustice results in death, or good results in happiness or health... We see all morality by effect, and people do reach for an absolute understanding of these moral forms, but the fact is, most people, a majority do know what is best for them, and if allowed a constant democracy where they must suffer wrong choices as well as enjoying right choices, they can learn how to manage their affairs...It is certain that people who never have a choice have no choice but to accept evil, even when life brings good, because that good is not certain as democracy would make it, but can be snatched away....

@hammersklavier,

Dear Hammer, What unsettles me most is the 6th statement (6) Systems of morality (what is the right way to live) need to have moral excellence (what is right) and moral perversion (what is wrong).)

I wonder, why do you assume that moral excellence is right ? in other words, what makes (doing the right thing) the right thing first place ? Why do we imprint human actions with such designations if its not for the fear of breaking the social contract, and hence, the fear that we would perish in the grip of those who are more powerful.
Dont you think that when we say (murder) is wrong, we say it because we have been taught to say it, or at least, because if murderers are amongst us, this would threaten us ?

In a nutshell, why should we adopt a (right) and (wrong) or a (good) and (evil) attitude ?

Thanks for indulging my ignorance,

Newspeak

@newspeak,

newspeak wrote:

Dear Hammer, What unsettles me most is the 6th statement (6) Systems of morality (what is the right way to live) need to have moral excellence (what is right) and moral perversion (what is wrong).)

I wonder, why do you assume that moral excellence is right ? in other words, what makes (doing the right thing) the right thing first place ? Why do we imprint human actions with such designations if its not for the fear of breaking the social contract, and hence, the fear that we would perish in the grip of those who are more powerful.
Dont you think that when we say (murder) is wrong, we say it because we have been taught to say it, or at least, because if murderers are amongst us, this would threaten us ?

In a nutshell, why should we adopt a (right) and (wrong) or a (good) and (evil) attitude ?

Thanks for indulging my ignorance,

Newspeak

Good or evil are actually sort of objectve conclusions based upon tangible results; but it is wrong to think of morals as necessarily good, at least in the result for the individual...

Morals as such are ethics, and they come from the words for custom of character... Bravery is a virtue because for people living in small socieites, from where we get the word, all knew that to show yourself cowardly was an invitation to attack... The natives in this land used to burn each other up when captured, and they gave every encouragement to bravery, and every challenge... You cannot imagine the pain they endured, nor how much their bodies would take, and still; with little left to life, when they were cut down they always were game, and tried to escape the children who were let loose on them to have the kill... Mothers would dip the feet of their children in the captive's blood, and the still quivering flesh was thrown into the soup... It was a lesson for all of what would be their lot if captured, to not expect mercy, to not invite attack or insult, they would have to show themselves as brave...

What is moral is honorable in relation to ones own people, however that is conceived... If you consider yourself human you might have to some day deny your obligation to your own family and community for some who will not give you a like consideration... What you do that is good in the eyes of the community may not be good for you or strangers; but it will always be good for your group, and will help their survival... So, good is the aim of moral behavior, but it is moral as we commonly use the word, as morale, spirit... The spiritual good is beyond the individual good... It is a sacrifice to the genius of ones people, the esprit de corp...

@hammersklavier,

Fido, Thank you so much for the interesting reply. I smell utalitarianism mixed with evolutionary anthropology in your response, so let me be more clear on what i have in mind ; i am talking about goodness in the abstract term, or how we imagine goodness now, for example, if you are in a dark alley, and you find a man with a million dollars' bag, goodness tell you that the (right) thing to do is not to kill him and take his money (although you know that no one would know about your crime) ... My question is : Why do we perceive Not Killing The Man And Stealing His Money to be a (Good) thing ( as opposite to evil ) ... Why do we consider it the (Right) thing to do ?

Thank you for indulging my ignorance,

newspeak

@newspeak,

we live in the real world and think in the abstract...The Greeks wanted to learn what good was so they could teach it... What if it springs out of emotion, out of the affection of one person for another??? Those people were watching their society go apart at the seams all the while thinking they could abstract and teach goodness while their economy made slaves of some to the masters among them as it weakened all... Now that it is happening to us, when the whole form of dociety is losing value and so, meaning because being good means an early death while appearing good but doing evil might mean wealth and survival...
To See what ethics is and what ethics in action looks like we have to look to intact societies, and that was always extended family groups like Gens, or phratries, or tribes, were wealth was held in common and held as a commonwealth..

Now, we are supposed to be a commonwealth, but so were the Greek and Roman societies, but wealth and victory destroyed their equality and without equality they had no democracy, and under such circumstances ethics becomes meaningless... We have better vision than the Greeks...It is true that they were fascinated by other nations, but they were too nearly at their same level to judge them properly, and no society without a good history can grasp what it loses over time by subtle shifts of behavior... Yet we (can almost all) still remember how it feels to have a family, to stand with family against school mates or stangers, and that behavior is at its heart ethical, motivated by emotion, and justified by blood ties...

We may not understand this fact if our individual communities work; but for people torn apart from their communities or sheered off from society as individuals, there is a great desire to reconstruct the community... Mr. Obama mentioned clinging to guns and religion... It is not an insult..That is what people do when their communities are under attack, when one form of society it atomizing, people reform... Gangs, and tribalism is another form, though illegal, of the same behavior... People need family, and they need community because it is communities that defend rights... The reason our country is falling apart is that money is feeding upon people and the society as structured is not defending rights...People do not form labor unions because they like dealing with politics and business agents and paying dues... Unions are forced on people just as religions and gangs... If the society doesn't defend them, but rather expedites their destruction and exploitation, which are both the same; then people need defense even more...

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