70 years without food and water

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wayne
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 11:32 am
@jeeprs,
Human beings have their romantic notions, thus there will always be plenty of believers of these types of stories.
I myself have not yet seen any situation in which the physical laws of our universe have been suspended.
I guess that makes me a skeptic, or a realist.
Romantic notions are fun, but should be kept within the realm of the spirit, where they cannot be so easily disproven.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 12:46 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;162338 wrote:

Of course, this is not possible according to science. But Indian yogis have a track record of doing things that are impossible according to science.

Where do you think he gets his energy from? If we set aside traditional science for a moment, is there a theory within Yogic Science to explain this?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 03:40 pm
@jeeprs,
I think the theory is that yogis can convert 'pranic energy'. I have a book with account of yogis who were sealed in containers for days on end with no oxygen. They appear to be able to suspend their metabolic activity and then restart it again.

I have no particular interest in whether these accounts are true or not - if they turn out to be bogus, it would not particularly surprise me. But unlike everyone else who has written here, I think it is possible they might be true. You can go through all the accounts, and those purporting to demonstrate the existence of parapsychological phenomena, and question every one of them on the basis that these kinds of things just can't happen. Michael Shermer and Skeptic magazine make a living out of doing that.

I am not going to argue the case for or against. I don't want to typecast myself as a PSI advocate. But I do have an open mind.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 04:50 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;162509 wrote:
I think the theory is that yogis can convert 'pranic energy'. I have a book with account of yogis who were sealed in containers for days on end with no oxygen. They appear to be able to suspend their metabolic activity and then restart it again.

I have no particular interest in whether these accounts are true or not - if they turn out to be bogus, it would not particularly surprise me. But unlike everyone else who has written here, I think it is possible they might be true. You can go through all the accounts, and those purporting to demonstrate the existence of parapsychological phenomena, and question every one of them on the basis that these kinds of things just can't happen. Michael Shermer and Skeptic magazine make a living out of doing that.

I am not going to argue the case for or against. I don't want to typecast myself as a PSI advocate. But I do have an open mind.


I would be willing to consider the evidence, if there were any presented. But the simple fact is, there is a claim with nothing to back it up. If I claimed that I could run 100 mph, would you have "an open mind" about it if I provided no real evidence at all, or would you figure that I probably was full of crap? That is where we are with this, a story that on the face of it seems absurd, and when looked into a little, one finds that there is no real evidence to back up the claim. My tentative conclusion is that the guy is a liar and a cheat. But if any new and real evidence were presented, then it may deserve another look. To come to a conclusion is not necessarily to decide once and for all that it is so, never to reconsider no matter what. To quote Clifford:

[INDENT][INDENT]Inquiry into the evidence of a doctrine is not to be made once for all, and then taken as finally settled. It is never lawful to stifle a doubt; for either it can be honestly answered by means of the inquiry already made, or else it proves that the inquiry was not complete. [/INDENT][/INDENT]

The Ethics of Belief

But until there is any new evidence, the matter may be regarded as settled.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 04:55 pm
@kennethamy,
Maybe the age of magic and miracles is upon us?

Maybe we have always been this age?

Has the age of Aquarius already happened?
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 05:11 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;162545 wrote:
Maybe the age of magic and miracles is upon us?

Maybe we have always been this age?

Has the age of Aquarius already happened?


I am reminded of the words of David Hume:

Quote:

Thirdly. It forms a strong presumption against all supernatural and miraculous relations, that they are observed chiefly to abound among ignorant and barbarous nations; or if a civilized people has ever given admission to any of them, that people will be found to have received them from ignorant and barbarous ancestors, who transmitted them with that inviolable sanction and authority, which always attend received opinions. When we peruse the first histories of all nations, we are apt to imagine ourselves transported into some new world; where the whole frame of nature is disjointed, and every element performs its operations in a different manner, from what it does at present. Battles, revolutions, pestilence, famine and death, are never the effect of those natural causes, which we experience. Prodigies, omens, oracles, judgements, quite obscure the few natural events, that are intermingled with them. But as the former grow thinner every page, in proportion as we advance nearer the enlightened ages, we soon learn, that there is nothing mysterious or supernatural in the case, but that all proceeds from the usual propensity of mankind towards the marvellous, and that, though this inclination may at intervals receive a check from sense and learning, it can never be thoroughly extirpated from human nature.

It is strange, a judicious reader is apt to say, upon the perusal of these wonderful historians, that such prodigious events never happen in our days. But it is nothing strange, I hope, that men should lie in all ages. You must surely have seen instances enough of that frailty. You have yourself heard many such marvellous relations started, which, being treated with scorn by all the wise and judicious, have at last been abandoned even by the vulgar. Be assured, that those renowned lies, which have spread and flourished to such a monstrous height, arose from like beginnings; but being sown in a more proper soil, shot up at last into prodigies almost equal to those which they relate.

It was a wise policy in that false prophet, Alexander, who though now forgotten, was once so famous, to lay the first scene of his impostures in Paphlagonia, where, as Lucian tells us, the people were extremely ignorant and stupid, and ready to swallow even the grossest delusion. People at a distance, who are weak enough to think the matter at all worth enquiry, have no opportunity of receiving better information. The stories come magnified to them by a hundred circumstances. Fools are industrious in propagating the imposture; while the wise and learned are contented, in general, to deride its absurdity, without informing themselves of the particular facts, by which it may be distinctly refuted. And thus the impostor above mentioned was enabled to proceed, from his ignorant Paphlagonians, to the enlisting of votaries, even among the Grecian philosophers, and men of the most eminent rank and distinction in Rome: nay, could engage the attention of that sage emperor Marcus Aurelius; so far as to make him trust the success of a military expedition to his delusive prophecies.

The advantages are so great, of starting an imposture among an ignorant people, that, even though the delusion should be too gross to impose on the generality of them (which, though seldom, is sometimes the case) it has a much better chance for succeeding in remote countries, than if the first scene had been laid in a city renowned for arts and knowledge. The most ignorant and barbarous of these barbarians carry the report abroad. None of their countrymen have a large correspondence, or sufficient credit and authority to contradict and beat down the delusion. Men's inclination to the marvellous has full opportunity to display itself. And thus a story, which is universally exploded in the place where it was first started, shall pass for certain at a thousand miles distance. But had Alexander fixed his residence at Athens, the philosophers of that renowned mart of learning had immediately spread, throughout the whole Roman empire, their sense of the matter; which, being supported by so great authority, and displayed by all the force of reason and eloquence, had entirely opened the eyes of mankind. It is true; Lucian, passing by chance through Paphlagonia, had an opportunity of performing this good office. But, though much to be wished, it does not always happen, that every Alexander meets with a Lucian, ready to expose and detect his impostures.

Online Library of Liberty - SECTION X.: of miracles. - Enquiries Concerning the Human Understanding and Concerning the Principles of Morals

Like all other ages, we are in an age when people are known to lie and be foolish. If Prahlad Jani really had the ability he claims, he could easily enough prove it by being properly tested by a variety of different people, including actual skeptics, some of which have offered large sums of money for proof of such things. There are always people interested in examining such stories, and if he really had the ability he claims, and if he really wanted to prove himself, he could do so. The fact that he does not suggests that he is a total fraud. If he wanted to keep the matter to himself, he would not have told anyone such a story, so we know that that is not the reason for his lack of proof.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 05:32 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;162553 wrote:
he really had the ability he claims, and if he really wanted to prove himself, he could do so. The fact that he does not suggests that he is a total fraud. If he wanted to keep the matter to himself, he would not have told anyone such a story, so we know that that is not the reason for his lack of proof.


The fact that he does not do so might also indicate that he does not care one whit whether people believe it to be true, or not. There is nothing in the article to suggest that he is seeking publicity or wishing to attract attention to himself. Yogis have lived and practised in India from time immemorial, they have no particular reason to have their powers validated by men in white coats.

There are have been many case studies of the paranomormal physiological abilities of yogis some of which are included in a book I own called Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century. [Ed. E. & E.W. Kelly Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, Inc. November 16, 2009]. If there is any interest I will provide some specifics later.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 06:28 pm
@jeeprs,
I'm interested in this gargling thing they keep talking about, and I think he probably can conceal things in his throat, but I still there is a magic of will and control here that even if a sceptic is due some real awe.

This kind of thing is undeniably authentically skill.
Magic or illusion it still takes some real concentration and training.
'What shall we do today?' I know lets train our bodies to do the fantastic.
Ectoplasm: Mediums & Ectoplasm
This stuff is just...................?????????????????:eek::eeek::surprised:
I know I could not do it.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 08:45 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;162509 wrote:
I think the theory is that yogis can convert 'pranic energy'. I have a book with account of yogis who were sealed in containers for days on end with no oxygen. They appear to be able to suspend their metabolic activity and then restart it again.

I have no particular interest in whether these accounts are true or not - if they turn out to be bogus, it would not particularly surprise me. But unlike everyone else who has written here, I think it is possible they might be true. You can go through all the accounts, and those purporting to demonstrate the existence of parapsychological phenomena, and question every one of them on the basis that these kinds of things just can't happen. Michael Shermer and Skeptic magazine make a living out of doing that.

I am not going to argue the case for or against. I don't want to typecast myself as a PSI advocate. But I do have an open mind.



Prana (India) or Chi (Chinese) or Ki (Japanese). I used to think about that idea a lot but I never read much about it. I'm not sure what you mean by "convert pranic energy". Do you mean from one form to another. Pranic energy to Caloric energy?

Caloric energy comes from food of course
Where does Pranic energy come from?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 09:00 pm
@jeeprs,
Well most people will say 'no such thing'. But I am not so sure. After all, we are now told that the vacuum of interstellar space is seething with energy, and the universe is thought to consist mainly of some form of energy/matter which we can't even conceive of, let alone measure. I think many of our ideas of what is possible and what is not may well need to be revised in the future. (That said, I am not really into the 'gee whiz' aspects of yogic phenomenon. I used to work at Reader's Digest, we had books like 'Strange Stories and Amazing Facts' which were full of such things. They don't fascinate me, in that sense.)

Incidentally, on a somewhat similar topic, I was contemplating how the meaning of the word 'skeptic' has changed. Originally skepticism meant 'suspension of judgement'. The skeptics had much in common with the Stoics and the Cynics, all of whom were engaged in an attempt to find a state of 'ataraxia' or 'apathea' beyond the turmoil and flux of ordinary worldly life. In other words, it was a spiritual movement. Scholars believe that Pyrrho, one of the founders of skepticism, was directly influenced by Mahayana Buddhism and in particular the Madhyamika (Middle Way) school which is a skeptical philosophy (See The Shape of Ancient Thought by Thomas McEvilly.)

Scientific skepticism is completely different. It is based on an attitude of metaphysical naturalism. It is not skeptical at all in the philosophical sense, but rather is concerned to defend 'science' against what it perceives as 'supernaturalism'. That, however, is very much the product of the European Enlightenment, and some very specific notions of what is natural, and what is not. At this point, we still don't know enough about nature to know what is 'super' to it, in my view.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 10:22 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;162669 wrote:
Well most people will say 'no such thing'. But I am not so sure. After all, we are now told that the vacuum of interstellar space is seething with energy, and the universe is thought to consist mainly of some form of energy/matter which we can't even conceive of, let alone measure.
...
Scientific skepticism is completely different. It is based on an attitude of metaphysical naturalism. It is not skeptical at all in the philosophical sense, but rather is concerned to defend 'science' against what it perceives as 'supernaturalism'.


Hmm, so who is telling us that space is seething with energy then? It seems like the scientists are casting aside the previous science rather than defending it. That's what scientific progress is.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 10 May, 2010 11:07 pm
@jeeprs,
Well I agree. Maybe one day we'll discover a naturalistic explanation for much of what was previouly thought to be supernatural. Many working physicists have long since given up on trying to understand the 'picture of the universe' that is suggest by mathematical physics. It is, said one, not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. Have an open mind, that is all I would say.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 12:26 am
@jeeprs,
I wonder if pranic energy assumes another substance that is mental/spirtual? Whereas caloric energy is material or at its limit E=mc2.

An ability to convert pranic energy to caloric body sustaining energy constitutes an ability to transmute the one substance into the other.

I'm guessing a bit here but I don't think I'm too far off base.
 
salima
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 01:23 am
@jeeprs,
pranic energy is in at least every liging organism if not every thing...it is the same as chi. and one of the theories is that if you eat food as soon as it is picked there is more left in it-and that it feeds not only the physical body but the mental and causal as well, so the longer it sits the more it becomes only suitable for the physical needs.

ultimately, there must be pranic energy in the sunlight-my memory is not that good, maybe that is just my personal opinion-but there are supposed to be people who can exist as a result of using that alone. it is something everyone can do but forgot how...or maybe the faculties we have are not attuned and developed enough, it comes after a lot of meditation...opening the chakras and all that.

gee...i am glad this is in the lounge...glad they dont have a separate crackpot woo-woo subforum, or we would be thrown out by now. Laughing
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 01:38 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;162757 wrote:
I wonder if pranic energy assumes another substance that is mental/spirtual? Whereas caloric energy is material or at its limit E=mc2.

An ability to convert pranic energy to caloric body sustaining energy constitutes an ability to transmute the one substance into the other.

I'm guessing a bit here but I don't think I'm too far off base.


There is an article on Prana in Wikipedia Prana - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It notes that it is synonymous with the 'chi' or 'qi' of the Chinese traditions (which is found in Taoism, Tao Chi, and so on.) As Salima notes above, the ability to live without physical sustenance is thought to be one of the benefits of 'mastering' prana.

Generally speaking, the Eastern traditions, it is thought that yogic practitioners and sadhus can develop 'siddhis' or super-normal powers. In fact one term for such practitioners is 'siddha' or 'one with powers'. However there are usually religious prohibitions on exploiting these powers or bragging about them. Often they are regarded as a potential distraction from the spiritual or higher viewpoint. Students are discouraged from being too interested in them.

Most will regard this as pre-scientific folklore. But it is interesting from an anthropological perspective, if nothing else.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 01:43 am
@Deckard,
Deckard;162458 wrote:
Where do you think he gets his energy from? If we set aside traditional science for a moment, is there a theory within Yogic Science to explain this?


Obviously, he has suspended the second law of thermodynamics. Why not?
 
Deckard
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 01:45 am
@salima,
salima;162787 wrote:
pranic energy is in at least every liging organism if not every thing...it is the same as chi. and one of the theories is that if you eat food as soon as it is picked there is more left in it-and that it feeds not only the physical body but the mental and causal as well, so the longer it sits the more it becomes only suitable for the physical needs.

ultimately, there must be pranic energy in the sunlight-my memory is not that good, maybe that is just my personal opinion-but there are supposed to be people who can exist as a result of using that alone. it is something everyone can do but forgot how...or maybe the faculties we have are not attuned and developed enough, it comes after a lot of meditation...opening the chakras and all that.

gee...i am glad this is in the lounge...glad they dont have a separate crackpot woo-woo subforum, or we would be thrown out by now. Laughing


I don't think the ancient Eastern philosophers were necessarily sun-worshipers. They certainly hadn't figured out photosynthesis but maybe they intuited it. Yours is a good update and it may be used by some newer interpretations of pranic energy. I think the ancients likely believed that pranic energy was derived from some other source but I don't have anything to back up that claim. If we attribute pranic energy to the Sun then modern science tells us it is E=mc2 energy and I think that may be a wrong turn in understanding the ancient conception of it but again I don't know for sure.

I so agree with your comment about not having a separate crackpot subforum.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 01:45 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;162794 wrote:


Most will regard this as pre-scientific folklore. But it is interesting from an anthropological perspective, if nothing else.


But so is alchemy. But we don't confuse it with chemistry. And so is astrology. But we don't confuse it with astronomy. "Nothing else" is right!
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 03:14 am
@salima,
salima;162787 wrote:
gee...i am glad this is in the lounge...glad they dont have a separate crackpot woo-woo subforum, or we would be thrown out by now:lol:

It's Tales from the Mystic East. You live there, don't you?
 
Ennui phil
 
Reply Tue 11 May, 2010 05:05 am
@jeeprs,
Most likely the holy man had encounters with extra-terrestrials. Or perhaps the report is bogus.
 
 

 
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