"Not thinking"

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Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:13 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129333 wrote:
To respond specifically, if learning the correct way to learn makes it easier to learn, then there is still merit in this idea of thinking less.


I don't see how if learning the correct way makes it easier to learn, there is merit in thinking less.

Quote:

Laziness and efficiency are sometimes mistaken.


There are always things to learn, and even after we learn something, we could still revise our thinking. Heck, we may even find out we were wrong all along. But what sort of efficiency are you speaking about? I'm still not certain we are even speaking about the same thing.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:23 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129334 wrote:
I don't see how if learning the correct way makes it easier to learn, there is merit in thinking less.



There are always things to learn, and even after we learn something, we could still revise our thinking. Heck, we may even find out we were wrong all along. But what sort of efficiency are you speaking about? I'm still not certain we are even speaking about the same thing.


I'll try an example to clear my thoughts up:

Someone who is new to art may find it hard to get started, hard to learn techniques.
(the first-time learning I mentioned a few posts back)
However, if someone gives them the basic tools to express themselves, they are much more capable of making complex artwork.
(the allusion to learning how to learn)

Helping someone learn to ride a bike is specific, but helping someone learn how to go about learning other things is less specific. So if it takes more effort the first time, then put that effort into teaching someone how to learn efficiently and they have less effort learning other things for the first time.

(that was a lousy example wasn't it...)
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:32 am
@Infovore,
Scottydamion wrote:

Helping someone learn to ride a bike is specific, but helping someone learn how to go about learning other things is less specific. So if it takes more effort the first time, then put that effort into teaching someone how to learn efficiently and they have less effort learning other things for the first time.


Alright, and what has this to do with thinking less? You mean that if we learn how to learn efficiently, we have to think less? Well maybe about that particular thing since we would have learned it faster, but we shouldn't think less in general. And it is also possible that a particular learning technique only applies to one category of things which can be learned. Perhaps, for instance, the same learning technique used to learn to ride a bike or swim, would not work for learning a foreign language or learning modal logic.

But you are right, we can all become more efficient learners. We must train smart, not just hard.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:39 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129341 wrote:
Alright, and what has this to do with thinking less? You mean that if we learn how to learn efficiently, we have to think less? Well maybe about that particular thing since we would have learned it faster, but we shouldn't think less in general. And it is also possible that that learning technique only applies to one category of things which can be learned. Perhaps, for instance, the same learning technique used to learn to ride a bike or swim, would not work for learning a foreign language or learning modal logic.

But you are right, we can all become more efficient learners. We must train smart, not just hard.


Some actions, like tying your shoes, are better is they become "automatic" and you don't have to think about them, so that you can think about more important things while (for example) you are tying your shoes. It would be a pain unless you could tie your shoes without thinking about it.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:39 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129341 wrote:
Alright, and what has this to do with thinking less? You mean that if we learn how to learn efficiently, we have to think less? Well maybe about that particular thing since we would have learned it faster, but we shouldn't think less in general. And it is also possible that a particular learning technique only applies to one category of things which can be learned. Perhaps, for instance, the same learning technique used to learn to ride a bike or swim, would not work for learning a foreign language or learning modal logic.

But you are right, we can all become more efficient learners. We must train smart, not just hard.


We are in agreement.

Yayyyy.Laughing
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:44 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;129342 wrote:
Some actions, like tying your shoes, are better is they become "automatic" and you don't have to think about them, so that you can think about more important things while (for example) you are tying your shoes. It would be a pain unless you could tie your shoes without thinking about it.


Right, akin to Scotty's bicycle example.

I just wasn't sure what exactly the issue was since the OP spoke of perfection initially. I think he was getting at that if every thing that has the potential to be thought about was "automatic", like the tying of our shoes, we would be perfect. So, thinking was just a means to an end, and once we've reached that end with every thing, thinking was not needed, and if something was thought of (not automatic), that showed we did not grasp it entirely. And so the goal was to get to a point where every action or thought was "automatic". I am not exactly sure what that means, though.
 
fast
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 10:57 am
@Infovore,
[QUOTE=Infovore;127940]In a sense that one has got to a certain point that everything can automatically be done without "thinking" about it.[/QUOTE]There is a mental state (and I don't recall the word for it) that some people can temporarily attain whereby there is a feeling that they don't have to think as they act.

Some people refer to this as a slowing-down effect. Example one, many people report a slowing-down effect just prior to a vehicle accident. They say that time seemed to slow down. Example two, if you are driving very fast and suddenly approach much slower moving traffic, you may experience the feeling that you can get out and walk. You may have the strange sensation that you can safely roll your window down and reach out and touch other cars because you're so in-tuned to the multitude of transpiring events. Example three, if you play Tetris at very high levels, you may reach what some call the zone where it seems like you really don't have to think as you just let your mind react as you play. Example four, experienced martial artists who have become very proficient in their field can sometimes jump into and out of this mental state, and it may help explain their lightening fast acuity. Some study their whole lives trying to get to that point.

What is going on at least in the first two examples is because of a sudden rush of adrenaline, the brain kicks into super high gear and begins processing information at incredible speeds--so fast that their very own perception of time changes. This is some very exotic and interesting stuff, but I have not really described cases where there is no thought; in fact, it's close to being the opposite. It's where people think (or at least perceive) very fast, and it's so fast that the person may actually believe they are acting without thinking.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 11:06 am
@fast,
fast;129347 wrote:
There is a mental state (and I don't recall the word for it) that some people can temporarily attain whereby there is a feeling that they don't have to think as they act.

Some people refer to this as a slowing-down effect. Example one, many people report a slowing-down effect just prior to a vehicle accident. They say that time seemed to slow down. Example two, if you are driving very fast and suddenly approach much slower moving traffic, you may experience the feeling that you can get out and walk. You may have the strange sensation that you can safely roll your window down and reach out and touch other cars because you're so in-tuned to the multitude of transpiring events. Example three, if you play Tetris at very high levels, you may reach what some call the zone where it seems like you really don't have to think as you just let your mind react as you play. Example four, experienced martial artists who have become very proficient in their field can sometimes jump into and out of this mental state, and it may help explain their lightening fast acuity. Some study their whole lives trying to get to that point.

What is going on at least in the first two examples is because of a sudden rush of adrenaline, the brain kicks into super high gear and begins processing information at incredible speeds--so fast that their very own perception of time changes. This is some very exotic and interesting stuff, but I have not really described cases where there is no thought; in fact, it's close to being the opposite. It's where people think (or at least perceive) very fast, and it's so fast that the person may actually believe they are acting without thinking.


Man, you always find a way to praise your name on here Very Happy
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 11:09 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129344 wrote:
Right, akin to Scotty's bicycle example.

I just wasn't sure what exactly the issue was since the OP spoke of perfection initially. I think he was getting at that if every thing that has the potential to be thought about was "automatic", like the tying of our shoes, we would be perfect. So, thinking was just a means to an end, and once we've reached that end with every thing, thinking was not needed, and if something was thought of (not automatic), that showed we did not grasp it entirely. And so the goal was to get to a point where every action or thought was "automatic". I am not exactly sure what that means, though.


Exactly, I'm pretty sure that's what he was trying to say, but of course there seem to be obvious objections since it seems to assume there is ultimately only one good way of thinking, or that communication would no longer require active thought.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 12:35 pm
@Flipside,
Flipside;129302 wrote:


Thinking can pollute, confuse and impede the innate you (me, us).


I'm not sure what this means. Can you elaborate?
 
Flipside
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 07:16 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan - I misunderstood this discussion at the start but I'll elaborate on my statements.

There is a flipside to thinking - it can suppress / inhibit / confuse our true selves (instinct, intuition), sending us entirely off track, particularly when the thinking taking place is based on fear/conflict.

I think it's possible to think too much.

I suspect we have an innate, instinctive wisdom within our unconscious mind, which can be enormously beneficial and powerful. Many people are shut off from this IMHO.

Sometimes thinking less (in the conscious sense) produces the answer (a good example is incubation).

I think (!), or rather, I feel there is a need for both - a balance between deliberate/active/reflexive thought and the more natural/fluid/intuitive state (accessing the unconscious through meditation, dreams, psychoanalysis, art - achieving the 'flow' or peak experiences etc).

When I spoke about the 'tense of thought', I was referring to thoughts relating to the past or future being far less fulfilling/rewarding (even destructive, at times) compared to the state of mindfulness.

But that's just what I think right now :whistling: I've more knowledge about psychology than philosophy at this stage. Can anyone recommend some good, meaty introduction books? Thanks

(I use brackets a lot)
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 17 Feb, 2010 07:23 pm
@Flipside,
Flipside; so you are not a vegetarian then? you like to chew the fat?Smile if so i'll have what ees havin.Smile
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 02:01 pm
@Flipside,
Flipside;129495 wrote:

I think it's possible to think too much.

I suspect we have an innate, instinctive wisdom within our unconscious mind, which can be enormously beneficial and powerful. Many people are shut off from this IMHO.


The question I always have is where does this innate, instinctive wisdom come from in the first place?

Do you believe (or anyone reading this thread) that wisdom can come from nowhere?

And is wisdom the same thing as knowledge?
 
Infovore
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 02:03 pm
@Infovore,
Have a look at this:

YouTube - Daniel Tammet - The Boy With The Incredible Brain [1/5]



Then read this:

Conversations on Creativity with Daniel Tammet - Part I, Embracing the Wide Sky | Psychology Today




How is that state of mind triggered? It's quite amazing to say the least.

---------- Post added 02-18-2010 at 10:07 PM ----------

TickTockMan;129718 wrote:
The question I always have is where does this innate, instinctive wisdom come from in the first place?

Do you believe (or anyone reading this thread) that wisdom can come from nowhere?

And is wisdom the same thing as knowledge?



Wisdom come from effective experience. It differs much from knowledge, but in a way - A person with knowledge can be considered wise. On the contrary a wise person can have little knowledge but have enough experience to make wise decisions in life.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 04:16 pm
@Infovore,
Infovore;129719 wrote:

Wisdom come from effective experience. It differs much from knowledge, but in a way - A person with knowledge can be considered wise. On the contrary a wise person can have little knowledge but have enough experience to make wise decisions in life.


Doesn't knowledge also come from effective experience?
What about ineffective experience?

I don't know how a wise person can have little knowledge.

Would you go to a guidance counselor who has little knowledge, but offers
wise advice?
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 06:40 pm
@Infovore,
Infovore;129719 wrote:
Have a look at this:

YouTube - Daniel Tammet - The Boy With The Incredible Brain [1/5]



Then read this:

Conversations on Creativity with Daniel Tammet - Part I, Embracing the Wide Sky | Psychology Today




How is that state of mind triggered? It's quite amazing to say the least.

---------- Post added 02-18-2010 at 10:07 PM ----------




Wisdom come from effective experience. It differs much from knowledge, but in a way - A person with knowledge can be considered wise. On the contrary a wise person can have little knowledge but have enough experience to make wise decisions in life.


You can learn to improve your memory by similar means. He has a natural ability to associate pictures with math, and that is amazing to us, but doesn't mean we couldn't learn to do the same thing (although his ability seems to stem from the brain working differently, like people who smell something and literaly see a color).
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 06:49 pm
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;129767 wrote:
people who smell something and literaly see a color).


Yes. Synesthesia. I've experienced this. It was very disconcerting.
I'm not sure the ability to do complex equations in my head would be
worth the trade-off.

Synesthesia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Infovore
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 10:11 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;129734 wrote:
Doesn't knowledge also come from effective experience?
What about ineffective experience?

I don't know how a wise person can have little knowledge.

Would you go to a guidance counselor who has little knowledge, but offers
wise advice?


Wise person not going to school? Yet lives life accordingly. That's more wisdom than knowledge. But could also become knowledgeable because of the latter.

Knowledge also comes from effective experience yes. Read up on the behaviourists theory about how that takes place.

Ineffective? In my opinion.. No.. But I don't know how other people absorb information without effectively interacting with it or its source.

Guidance counsellor would be assumed to have knowledge as that is what puts them in that position in the first place doesn't it?
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 08:26 am
@Flipside,
[QUOTE=Flipside;129495](I use brackets a lot)[/quote]

(Parentheses)
[Brackets]
{Braces}
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Fri 19 Feb, 2010 04:09 pm
@Infovore,
Infovore;129816 wrote:
Wise person not going to school? Yet lives life accordingly. That's more wisdom than knowledge. But could also become knowledgeable because of the latter.

So a person can be wise without having knowledge? How does that work?

If we say "He is wise in the ways of the world," is it different than saying, "He has knowledge of how the world works?"

Infovore;129816 wrote:
Ineffective? In my opinion.. No.. But I don't know how other people absorb information without effectively interacting with it or its source.
I had a roommate in college who tried to clean the ultra grimy floor of the kitchen by dumping ammonia and bleach together. Not only was it ineffective, it required the evacuation of several surrounding dorm rooms and the services of the fire department with big ventilation fans.

He learned to never do that again. Is this knowledge or wisdom? Did it come from an effective or an ineffective interaction?


Infovore;129816 wrote:
Guidance counsellor would be assumed to have knowledge as that is what puts them in that position in the first place doesn't it?

I wouldn't make this assumption. Giving terrible advice requires no specific credentials.
 
 

 
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