Hi there - I actually posted a thread on St John of the Cross back in August. It didn't get a lot of response, but then, it is probably pretty baffling to many people. My knowledge of St John of the Cross is limited to that quote but I really find him very inspiring. So I would be interested in this topic, I think.

---------- Post added 09-28-2009 at 07:53 PM ----------

although why this is in General Discussion and not one of the specialised forums, I am not so sure.

Well then, it only takes one, I shall start it tomorrow with hopefully some comment for then, but just a general comment to anyone who wants to and thinks they might have come to late, dont worry, even for thoes who may not want to read it all, just wanted some synchronous that I am quickly learning might not entirely work in such forums. Heres to the best of you for trying.

The reason it is not specialised (yet) is because I dont know the speciality.
Know of, never tasted or consumed as I want to do with this work.
And this way it keeps it as open as possible.

We are all beginners even if it is simply of the day that carries us.
Never to late, never to early. Always just on time.

One really nice thing about this site is that people continuously convince me to read stuff I know I should have already read but am too lazy to read.

This comes more from notes;
This is the fourth part of an overall work 'Assent of Mount Carmel' but has merits on its own solitary standing.

The dark night is the second night, more obscure and dark and terrible purgation'. But as we all should a good purge cleanses.

'Lover transformed in the Beloved' i like it when the boundaries between love for ones self and that of God or Power Brevity. You do not know whom or what loves the other but you know that they are meant to be together.

3 enimies, world, devil, flesh

'Divine union of the soul with God'
Gods spiritual love is mothers milk, we spend our life once divorced always tryi8ng to re-marry. We would do anything for it, God Mother and Milk.

respectively.

Habits of strength
Devout but prideful vanity
'(although it is true that holy things of their own nature cause hunility)'
Makes you think of relics somehow, when one should be more insistent upon the self living organism that is faith and soul rather than the solid representations of faith, in gold or stone, in other words one wonders how much one has been corrupted by materialism, and then more, that faiths representations (churches if you will) (establishments) is not the real thing trying to be spoken absorbed (the 'good news' if you will) felt, experienced.
Old hat, as most inteligent people know where faith and even God is to be found.

Sado-mascochism saint

The first victim of sin is yourself, but it leads also that the person who does so is your self, we are first corrupted by our selves.

Presumption it looks could be the 8th sin, but i am sure that probably lies somewhere with the others established.

'They strain at another's gnat and themselves swallow a camel' St Mt xxiii,24

I think something to doo with only seeing your own light by the darkness
of others, pointing out the dim to shine, when you aren't even wired right.
All under the modern guise 'Artistic warrent' (disabuse)
"no one understands me, thereofre i must be brilliant."

'embarrassed to confess their sins nakedly'

'to depreciate it' ? medieval cleanse
modern miscommunication
depricate?

'if He should take thier imperfections from them, they would probably become prouder and more presumptious still.'

Edify; to improve the mind of, morals of; enlighten, inforn, nurture

Importuned; to make persistent and usually annoying request m(of someone),," to solicit for immoral purposes, eg prostitution.

'when others seem to be teaching them, take the words from their mouths as if they knew them already' How many people do you know who do this?

'to keep His treasures secretly within and likewise to cast out from them selves all evil'

'God leads into the dark night whom He desires to purify from all these imperfections so the He may bring them farther onward.'

Finally; Clarrification that the night, the dark night of the soul, both concept and title, He describes is not so much with out light but with no need to shine, or should we say blind.

Begs the question, who am I?

This is good.

Hello somtimg sun and a welcome. If you don't mind, what is your over all
thought, as briefly as you can, as to what you think "The Dark Night of the Soul" is saying in it's entirety and how was it you came across it?

Thank you,
William

isnt it the moment when doubt becomes unbearable and just at that point some breakthrough is achieved to transcend all future doubt? it's like a drunk reaching rock bottom before he can recover and finally leave alcohol behind. i am not sure it is even possible to have a really solid faith, the kind that is unshakeable, until one has suffered to the very depths of their soul the desperation of abandonment. not until that moment does remembrance occur in an indisputable, irrefutable experiential way..

Hello, brief, i dont rightly know as yet what "The Dark Night of the Soul" is saying in its entirety as i have not yet reached its zenith. This post is me working throught it with hopeful sujestions and decent comment upon the book work and of course upon what others here do say.
It is never to late to join the debate.
So i will give full conclusion when i reach one.
However, i may not have been clear as to the reply i gave last night, was only comment on the first two chapters, coming to those minor conclusions (although they should be called resolves) before broad view.
I came upon this work doing as most other work in the meantime, some work on melancholia and the humors i believe, but cant quite remember the paper, i have had this book work for some time and in joining a forum such as this i have found the vehicle in which to complete and drive what has been left undone untested for far to long.
And besides, the title is encouraging engaging even if i judged it defer deferentially.
What with out giving to much away are your conclusions on this work?

---------- Post added 10-01-2009 at 01:16 AM ----------




So far, i have read and somewhat experienced that it might be also when doubt becomes truely bearable. possibly controllable.?
Not being sure is what i see as most true faith is built upon, it is with us finding the answer, for the first and most important subject, your self owned soul.
You are correct i would imagine that when people find hell they often realise heaven, epiphany chorus. But what i think this is so far saying is that we must learn to sing true solo.
Remembrance is tricky for we tend to choose what is retained, even unconsciously somehow?, although we are not yet privy.
But i do agree it must be 'irrefutable experiential' and in a way that it is retained for its truth rather than imaginings.

---------- Post added 10-01-2009 at 01:50 AM ----------

The dark night clearly realised.
Or at least at this juncture.
Chapter 3; 'until God brings it into the passive purgation of that dark night'
God being that which is first realised by the recipient.
Passive in the strength of activity and that the knowing will somehow bring closer Truth of any kind.

'Because however greatly the soul itself labours, it cannot actively prtify itself so as to be in the least degree prepared for the Diven union of perfection of love, if God takes not its hand and purges it not in that dark fire, in the way and manner that we have to describe'
The fire, the dark fire, here described is not the night that is the title and intention of learning from this book work, the fire is not the night.
But it leads to the salvation of manner description, what we here write, what we here learn and what we there do with it.

Chapter 4; 'Spirit is moved to pleasure and delight in God
sensual nature, is more to pleasure and delight of the senses because it cannot possess and lay hold upon aught else'

'Deep prayer with spirit with God
Sense it is passively conscious

'Everything that is received is in the recipient after the manner of the same recipient' I like this and dont know fully why, any insight greatly welcomed on this quote specialy.

these three go together;
'often times recieves the Spirit of God with the same imperfection'
'since the devil attacks them then more than at other times, so that they may give up spiritual exercises.'
'unless the dark night has entered the soul, and rids them of all impurities, one after another.'
A mamouth task is spoken of, well mamouth in the sense of the untrained beginner, reiterasting that the subject of these expositions is the spiritual man, that which has degree to be closer to soul and God therein and also has a master. Which even without diploma means mevery man concerned with their God and their soul. This is an everyman poem and prose and possition.
'For the spirit of God has this property, that it increases good by adding to it more good, in as much as their is likeness and comformity between them.'

'a certain remorce of conscience' let me know what you think of this if recognising the place.

'That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit' St John iii,6
'That is to say, the love which is born of sensuality ends in sensuality, and that which is of the spirit ends in the spirit of God and causes it to grow.'

The Dark Night of the Soul is a classic in Catholic devotional literature. It recounts the 'spiritual journey' of John Yepes (a.k.a. St John of the Cross). A related text is Theresa of Avilla's 'Ascent of Mount Carmel'. Basically the narrative concerns the trials and tribulations of the soul as it is purified and elevated to the proper contemplation of God. There are many traps and pitfalls to be encountered on the way.



This is a reflection on the fact that purification can only come by way of divine grace, that is, not through any effort on the part of the aspirant.

"Dark fire' and 'darkness' generally are perhaps references to the fact that this purification takes place in the 'depths of the soul' (nowadays possibly conceived as 'the deep unconscious'). Commonly, mystics will come to realise that even though there is nothing experienced on the conscious level, God is operating mysteriously in the depths of the soul.

In John's case, also, as with many Christian mystics generally, there is a recapitulation of the moment when Christ cried from the Cross 'Lord, Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?' So that even Jesus, in this moment of dire, even mortal, peril, had significantly 'lost his faith' and didn't feel the relationship with the Father any more. But then, as the gospel narratives recount, this death later culminated in the resurrection, meaning that Jesus had not been forsaken at all. So, this idea of 'abandonment' is key in understanding the Dark Night. Your faith has to be sufficient to carry you through these periods even when you feel all certainty is lost and there is no way forward.

No. What you are saying is a consequence of darkness; a darkness created by the imposition of others. Salima, the dark night is the journey one is destined to take, not of themselves, but a gift, lest any man should boast to find the truth and their oneness with god. It means a journey of true sacrifice suffering all the slings an arrows that life throws ones way, but feeling no pain in the process. And that even means death. It can't be done without help, by any man regardless of deeds or wealth.

John, in his imprisonment and solitude efforted to find a truth as he tried to reason that death of christ in it all. It is a journey of pure faith and any doubt, even the size of a grain of sand will trip you up, and that faith can only come from god, himself.............as a gift. Why so many who have tried, have failed. It cannot be of man's choosing as god does the thinking around here of which all who love are apart, yet distant in the darkness they suffer from, imposed by others. And the bible is full of those grains of sand.

Now the bible, composed and compiled by man, in his assumed autonomy, was trying to consciously trying to find a truth and unfortunately "thought" wrong in his quest for truth leaving a lot of grains of sand in his wake that have become boulders. Such as might have been depicted in the search for the holy grail or the actual words of that christ which have never existed, only handed down from one to another, such as those of Marcus Aurelius the only king in the bunch, in his book, MEDITATIONS. In my personal and honest opinion, though those very words are subject to the flaws of interpretation being the words themselves, in the minds of most, are just to ambiguous to know the true ones that should be applied so they ring loud and clear for all to hear.

The greatest conundrum in the new testament is this: If christ were the embodiment of god, that omnipotent, omnipresent, all knowing, all sensing god, he would have surely not been killed, especially in the way it was depicted he was. Not by a long shot. He would have been able to hide in plain sight as he observed and experienced life yet contaminated by it or suffering from it but feeling no pain, would have recorded all he saw and heard and experienced, for he would surely be wise enough to know to buck the system, as it were, would surely cause his death and never been nailed on that cross and furthermore never said, "why, has thou forsaken me?" Never in a million years. No god would ever think of such a thing.

Now it could be conceived that in those 18 years that are unknown of the man called christ, if there were indeed such a man, he could have come across such a book called MEDITATIONS, for he and Marcus Aurelius, lived around the same time; give or take a couple of hundred years, and tried to implement those inspired wonderings of this one really good king or true son of god? Now we know how that story ended, don't we or is that a boulder that was a grain of sand. Remember, history is written by those who have hanged heroes; such as Mel Gibson's BRAVEHEART expresses in it's opening scene as some will view the truth as a lie, that is commonly done today and the truth behind the axiom, "the truth hurts". Only if you seek it for all the wrong reasons, period. It is to be shared not held within.

Now as it were, let me come down to Earth for a moment and offer this. When we are not born, we are re-born as the new testament depicts in born again. Yet it means in that new testament interpretation to consciously try to surrender and that will cause you to be reborn in christ himself by believing all he had to say. Compelling, isn't it? Especially when it threatens you if you don't. What god would do such a thing? Hmmm? Talk about a boulder! That's not becoming a christ, that's beoming a slave and christ the threatening master. Hear what Nietzsche thought about that and the darkness of his existence in trying to figure that out.

He who is led in that dark night will become a mentor to all others who exist in darkness to save them from such a journey and the joy he brings will be the only reward he will ever need. Even the slightest love you give will be felt by those who truly yearn for it as you cannot in any way hope for anything in return. It is in the giving one finds true happiness as it is returned in like from all you truly help with no thought aforethought to such a reward.It too is a gift.

Now, my sweet friend, let me venture out on a limb here. These words are not for you in that metaphorically, it was woman who was nailed to that cross, and it is she who has truly suffered. And that is what the oracle of delphi represents. Her scorn. I'll just leave it at that for now and who has true autonomy on this mother earth and her nature.

As always, in my honest, humble opinion,
Your dear friend,
William

---------- Post added 09-30-2009 at 10:15 PM ----------

Sometime Sun, I hope the post I responded to Salima answered any questions you might have had, though I did give a very simple explanation, I can elaborate more if you wish.

William

That is what many of the Gnostic schools said. But it is a misunderstanding of the message of Jesus, from the orthodox viewpoint. It says something very profound about the nature of love, and of sacrifice. I think the God you are considering is much more like the pagan gods.

See how confusing it can get? The truth doesn't come that easy. You are looking of a something that satisfies you, and precisely why so many have failed. God has many names and interpretations and that is the problem. We look for the one that satisfies us. When god is one and we are a part of that one, that light that is in us all and when we separate it as we pick and choose who to believe the more confused we get. It is really quite that simple for it creates a house divided, and one that cannot stand. You give that love that is in you, and you will begin to understand what I mean. It is our selfish nature, that we try to hold on to it for we think we would feel lost without it. It takes time; it will grab you some day, it just depends on just how deep that love is buried in you.

William

Actually I am not really talking about my personal feelings, as I am technically not a Christian. Hence the phrase 'from the orthodox viewpoint'. As the discussion is about St John of the Cross, who is after all a Catholic saint, it is important, I feel, to keep these distinctions in mind.

hi william-
i must admit i really didnt understand most of your post...but that is ok.

one interesting thing is that in the qur'an, it is said that jesus was not on the cross-someone in his likeness was crucified. it doesnt really specify what happened after that, and apparently no one ever asked, though i could be wrong-i would have to check the hadiths. in islam jesus is accepted as a prophet, but not a god.

but to me the dark night of the soul has nothing to do with jesus in particular, it is one of the many ways people reach a gnostic understanding of that other world beyond the physical. as jeeprs says, st john's account of it is from the viewpoint of a christian-but someone who is of a different faith or discipline or a yoga practitioner may also have that same epihpany.

now whether the dark night must always precede the light of day i am not sure. i was always curious if those people who are so unbothered by anything, like for instance my mother was a very superficial happy-go-lucky person. so she never had any dark night nor any sunrise-but does it really matter?

so i think it must have something to do with a particular person's propensity for having these kind of st john experiences. the method or circumstances or the faith of the subject are only secondary to the experiences themselves, really...in my opinion. hence that is why i think they say it can only come from grace-which could be translated as goodluck/bad luck i suppose to someone with an atheistic point of view.

William; how about walking that beach, walking upright being the master and proof over the sand, living embodiment, sand of a multitude and even time.

A bit tired of Chirst being suspected for the fact he martyred himself.
God would have had to experience death fully before he God could know anything of what it was to be man.
It is easy to forget in doubt the first gift and lesson amongst, in, on, the sands especially changed by histories winds.
He died for our sins.
To feel no pain means he would not have died and not come close at least to the only sin any god man can 'get away' with, self (not Self) doubt denial.
We as the mere and meek are fogiven ours. (At least this one we are)
The truth does indeed hurt it is built that way, you can certainly be happy without knowing anytruth but the fact remains you still know nothing, you only dont doubt it because 'nothin exists' and even this is not known truth.
Conceivably any god as man must fear pain (truth) in order to be man.
Which does lead to the slight conclusion that even God does not know all, or at least until he had attempted to be man, now God may well be complete, or christ as man and God saw or could not see some thing, unknown to God as it is to man also, but could also have been concluded with the first lesson gift above.

Salima; please elaborate on your understandings of the Yogic similarities.

Well, thanks all, but I am unsubsribing from this thread, I really cannot make head or tail of anything being written here.

It tells more clearly now that of the sins of spiritual persons, but not perhaps in his time frame was that all people, all men mankind, are naturally spiritual, (designed or accidental) it is sin and soul disregard that inflicts those with poor senses and sensibilities. Both of which are (in, with this manual) somehow trainable if not faith transferable.

Chapter 5;
'At times the inpulse comes to them to reprove them angrily, and occasionally they go so far as to indulge it and set them selves up as master of virtue. All this is contrary to spiritual meekness'

Meek being the opposite of wrath?

'so impatient are they about this that they would fain be saints in a day'

But who does not have a birthday?, said with some hope of the attainable.

'Some souls, on the other hand, are so patient as regards the progress which they desire that God would gladly see them less so.'
Funny right? i think John just made his first humourful responce. repose.

Chapter 6;
'moderation within which the virtues are acquired'
Just like it, excess without what the sins are shed.

'These persons are most imperfect and unreasonable for they set bodily penance before subjection and obedience, which is penance according to reason and discretion, and therefore a sacrifice more acceptable and pleasing to God than any other'
William do something with this one.

'Inasmuch as all extremes are vicious, and as in behaving thus such persons are working their own will, they grow in vice rather than in virtue'
this leads to us being without will which is first gift, sounds right does not add up to all that much.

'It is therefore, very fitting that they should enter into the dark night, where of we shall speak, that they may be purged from this childishness'
Childishness, i would hazzard to say was the wrong translation on behalf of st john. Think of a word you would supplement.

'These persons have many other imperfections which arise hence, of which in time the Loed heals them by means of temptations,, aridities and other trials, all of which are part of the dark night'
Dont get something for nothin.

---------- Post added 10-02-2009 at 01:46 AM ----------

jeeprs, dont concentrate on the whole, find one thing you can elborate upon as i am doing selectively some might accuse of the messages of St John.
Some of it must make some sense and you are equipped to make it clearer.

I've been reading about Meister Eckhart, a Dominican preacher... mystic? There's an idea of Ground. This ground is within, so to speak. It's like... what you are grew out of this ground. Everybody is like dandilions growing out of the same spot. Your little flower head may not change much as your focus descends down the stem toward the ground that you share with all others and this ground is God. Christ is seen as a name for a process of connection. I've got more to read on it.

The image of the slain God is said to predate Christianity. Which doesn't undermine the validity of Christian doctrine in my view. The Dominicans believed that what we call Reason is a manifestation of the Divine Mind. Anyway the image works both ways. God leaves behind divinity to become human... the human leaves behind beloved earthly flesh to become divine. A kind of "sacrifice" is happening in either direction.

The Gospel accounts do not show Jesus ever saying that he was God. He repeatedly referred to himself as the Son of Man. Matthew calls him the Son of God. The basis in the gospels for Jesus being God is the beginning of the book of John... In the beginning the Word was. The Word was with God. The Word was God. And this is the story of the Word: and then it starts the story of Jesus.

Consider for a second that the Propitiatory Sacrifice of Jesus is celebrated around the time of the spring equinox when farmers are nervous about the well-being of the future crops. Other dimensions of sacrifice might be seen here. Maybe. And William... I don't think Jesus could have read Meditations... it came later.

But what Meister Eckhard encouraged people to do was stop looking for altered-mind experiences. Apparently people were focusing heavily on that. Actively searching for it can lead to delusions. The Lord of Illusion will do whatever you ask. If you ask it to show you God, it will. Big white beard or whatever. Does anybody have experiences to share about union with God... or that type of thing?

Virtue: A trait of character that is to be admired.

Now let's observe that statement a little. If you seek to be admired is not a virtuous state. It is a false state, yet many think they can be virtuous by offering something neither need, the giver or the receiver. You see a trait is something that comes natural to you; it is who you innately are. If you are not greedy and only acquire what you need honestly, you are being virtuous, as you will not even take what others are offering for you don't need it so they can offer it to one that does. That's virtue. Then you do not have sins to shed for that which you protect that is not yours to keep. Kinda like entrapment of one who thinks he is more powerful to seek an ally.



"I would rather die than submit", is what it is saying. To sacrifice ones life before ever bending to the rule of another who offers you more than you need to enslave you in hopes you grow dependent on their gift you don't need. (Consider the "advertising you are exposed to everyday)?
"How dare you not to accept this gift I offer, for I know more than you. It good for you, I say; it would be an insult if you do not take it", to cause you shame if you didn't. Hmmm?

How's that?

William

---------- Post added 10-01-2009 at 11:32 PM ----------

Now let's carry this a step further. Take money for instance and the power of those who have more than they need of it. They advertise 'stuff' you don't need provocatively which creates desire in you to acquire something with money you don't have, and you "fall for it". You then borrow the money, to get that you don't need "with interest attached";then you finally realize you don't need it and try to get rid of it, to recoup the money you paid for it. But it's used and no one wants to pay the price you paid for it, yet you still owe the money you borrowed to pay for it. So it becomes waste to you. Now you are obligated as you still have to meet the obligation of the lender who gave you the money, and subsequently, you become their slave. Ring any bells?

William