Would we want to live forever?

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Elmud
 
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 04:27 pm
@salima,
You know Salima,,,I'm trying to think about how it would be to exist just to exist.what kind of life would it be to just sit on your butt and stare at the stars? For me,,,happiness would include working. Creating. Producing. Being active in positive activities. If ya can't create,,,whats the point? Having someone to love and working together to create things. that would make living forever tolerable.
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 05:16 pm
@Elmud,
Elmud;94816 wrote:
You know Salima,,,I'm trying to think about how it would be to exist just to exist.what kind of life would it be to just sit on your butt and stare at the stars? For me,,,happiness would include working. Creating. Producing. Being active in positive activities. If ya can't create,,,whats the point? Having someone to love and working together to create things. that would make living forever tolerable.


are you kidding? that would make living paradise! then i really would want to live forever...

some people interpret biblical heaven as being whatever it takes to make us happy, that it wont be just sitting around with the angels and singing hymns. of course that is another issue entirely. would there still be a challenge in working towards some creation or goal in heaven if you knew it was always going to turn out properly? i mean of course there wouldnt be any challenge, what i mean is the challenge is what is the fun part, isnt it? the possibility of failure-otherwise, how can you be thrilled with what you have accomplished otherwise?

maybe in a real biblical heaven we will also have the possibility of failure if that is what it takes to make us happy.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 07:43 pm
@manored,
manored;94621 wrote:
Would it really totally delete itself, or it would start and then crash and become corrupted?


Well the operating system would be cached into RAM and into a swap file so deleting the program wouldn't effect it from deleting itself. The only thing you couldn't do was access any function calls or the computer would halt.

manored;94621 wrote:

Anyway, better give another analogy: A snake trying to swallow itself =)

I agree with that analogy, except I think its the mind itself that is the battery, not the body.

I think we can logically deduce that consciousness is not limited to the body though. My line of thinking is the following:
*The universe came to be once
*Everthing that comes to be once can come to be more times, thus, the universe is both infinite and never-ending.
*In an infinite universe, everthing happens
*If everthing happens, then minds are recycled. This is backed up by the second conclusion: If my mind was "assigned" to a living being once, it will be more times. That also means that it will last forever, and there are other minds like mine, though they can never be reconized.


It is possible I suppose that consciousness renews itself, but calling it the same person or individual, I couldn't agree with that. I believe all memory would be lost in the old brain of the previous body. I just can not see how any sort of "thing" could contain all memories, exist for ever and not require any sort of energy input to function. It just defies all sorts of logic and understanding.

To put it another way since people tend to object to my line of reasoning and insist, "That a soul could exist just in a different dimension that is free from the laws of physics."

My argument for this is, why exist in two separate dimensions then? Why don't we exist in the same dimension then? It seems a little silly to have this sort of frail dimension on top of a "non-ending", "non-damaging" physics free dimension.

I think you can talk about such a dimension but the reality of such an existence defies all sort of rationality in my opinion.

---------- Post added 10-02-2009 at 06:48 PM ----------

salima;94824 wrote:
maybe in a real biblical heaven we will also have the possibility of failure if that is what it takes to make us happy.


But that defies the logical reasoning of heaven. What is it that is challenging? Are you saying people invent stuff in heaven? What is the point of having made a cell phone in heaven? The only thing you are talking about is some form of existence that is exactly like this existence but then what is different about it? Is there war, is there vindictiveness and corruption in heaven? Are there greedy corporation that patent their inventions? For some the challenge is to oppress others and to obtain more than everyone else, so does that exist in heaven too? I don't see where exactly you draw the line.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 01:59 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;94846 wrote:

To put it another way since people tend to object to my line of reasoning and insist, "That a soul could exist just in a different dimension that is free from the laws of physics."

My argument for this is, why exist in two separate dimensions then? Why don't we exist in the same dimension then? It seems a little silly to have this sort of frail dimension on top of a "non-ending", "non-damaging" physics free dimension.

I think you can talk about such a dimension but the reality of such an existence defies all sort of rationality in my opinion.

---------- Post added 10-02-2009 at 06:48 PM ----------



But that defies the logical reasoning of heaven. What is it that is challenging? Are you saying people invent stuff in heaven? What is the point of having made a cell phone in heaven? The only thing you are talking about is some form of existence that is exactly like this existence but then what is different about it? Is there war, is there vindictiveness and corruption in heaven? Are there greedy corporation that patent their inventions? For some the challenge is to oppress others and to obtain more than everyone else, so does that exist in heaven too? I don't see where exactly you draw the line.


this dimension is supposed to be a journey of sorts...i dont really want to get into the heaven and hell idea, just living in different dimensions and living forever, a sort of secular approach.

here is a guess of mine, pure speculation, and interpretation of various theories i have read:
the physics free dimension, that place where the source resides and from which we would originate (arriving here in this realm as mere reflections, you understand-not as entities or beings) is in fact boring nothingness from our point of view. we get bored rather easily. bliss would become boring very fast. but it doesnt matter because we wont exist there as we are here-we will be assimilated and annihilated into the original source being, of which we are only a condition. not only physics but rationality doesnt exist there.
now as to the question of why this one being that i envision, and why it came here where all this rotten stuff happens-my personal thought is that it was a natural consequence. maybe it happens better sometimes than others, who knows. and i also suspect that it cant quit once it has started. otherwise, if i was it-i would sasy 'ok, this one stinks, let's go back and try again'. either that, or that blissful happy place is so boring it thinks anything is better than that. now THAT is the scariest thought of all, as far as i am concerned.


now working from purely an imagination standpoint, i can imagine a heaven (traditional reward for goodness place) where whatever satisfies us would happen-if we like to try and accomplish something and fail 99 times before we succeed, that is what will happen. if someone simply wants to open the replicator and out comes whatever they want, that will happen for him.

maybe there is a separate heaven for each individual, and everything there is like an illusion, a dream of whatever it takes to make them happy. for instance, i want to be married to a certain person but he wants to be married to someone else, so i am in my heaven with a cloned him as my spouse, and he is in his heaven with whomever he wants, cloned especially for him as a spouse. as to whether we know it is real or not, who knows-if we know, we wont care, and if we dont know it wont matter.

now how did you let greedy corporation giants into heaven? they are in the other place...along with the war mongers.
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 11:30 am
@salima,
salima;94769 wrote:
i think it is obvious that whoever is happy would like to live forever and whoever is not happy would just as soon die, the sooner the better. unless they are really optimistic they will be happy some day of course.

i wouldnt mind living forever if i could be happy forever. in fact i wouldnt mind dying tomorrow if i could just be happy today...actually i dont think i would mind dying tomorrow very much either way.

how come all you guys sound so happy?
Thats because you still have too much sanity left, lose some and you will be happy too =)

Elmud;94816 wrote:
You know Salima,,,I'm trying to think about how it would be to exist just to exist.what kind of life would it be to just sit on your butt and stare at the stars? For me,,,happiness would include working. Creating. Producing. Being active in positive activities. If ya can't create,,,whats the point? Having someone to love and working together to create things. that would make living forever tolerable.
If the stars were infinitely interesting, and if my butt didnt hurt, I wouldnt mind at all. Id still prefer to have an interestelar finger to poke then, though...

Krumple;94846 wrote:
Well the operating system would be cached into RAM and into a swap file so deleting the program wouldn't effect it from deleting itself. The only thing you couldn't do was access any function calls or the computer would halt.
Ah, thats right, a computer isnt a good analogy at all. You can eat your own mouth if you have two =) [/QUOTE]


Krumple;94846 wrote:

I just can not see how any sort of "thing" could contain all memories, exist for ever and not require any sort of energy input to function. It just defies all sorts of logic and understanding.
Just like the universe. It exists for ever, contains everthing, does not receive any external input (Universe => everthing, so it cannot) AND defies all sorts of logic and understanding. My interpretation is that if the universe can, I can too =)


Krumple;94846 wrote:

My argument for this is, why exist in two separate dimensions then? Why don't we exist in the same dimension then? It seems a little silly to have this sort of frail dimension on top of a "non-ending", "non-damaging" physics free dimension.

I think you can talk about such a dimension but the reality of such an existence defies all sort of rationality in my opinion.
I think we have no control over it whatsoever. We never were in this "base" dimension and decided to swim upyards, we are forever lost in the turmoil above.

I agree that it defies logic, but, for me, the end of the mind would also defy logic. As an start, its our mind that perceives time, if it ends, is there time? One could say it does, but that would be an outside observer observing a mind, if you are this mind that ends, wont the moment of the end take forever to you, halting the universe in your perception?

salima;94868 wrote:

here is a guess of mine, pure speculation, and interpretation of various theories i have read:
the physics free dimension, that place where the source resides and from which we would originate (arriving here in this realm as mere reflections, you understand-not as entities or beings) is in fact boring nothingness from our point of view. we get bored rather easily. bliss would become boring very fast. but it doesnt matter because we wont exist there as we are here-we will be assimilated and annihilated into the original source being, of which we are only a condition. not only physics but rationality doesnt exist there.
now as to the question of why this one being that i envision, and why it came here where all this rotten stuff happens-my personal thought is that it was a natural consequence. maybe it happens better sometimes than others, who knows. and i also suspect that it cant quit once it has started. otherwise, if i was it-i would sasy 'ok, this one stinks, let's go back and try again'. either that, or that blissful happy place is so boring it thinks anything is better than that. now THAT is the scariest thought of all, as far as i am concerned.
I think this is possible, but not as the base of the mind, just one of its many facets or "incarnations". The base can never be found.

salima;94868 wrote:
now how did you let greedy corporation giants into heaven? they are in the other place...along with the war mongers.
Earth you mean, although ever since the great migration to heaven it has been renamed to "hell" =)
 
FireAndYce
 
Reply Tue 6 Oct, 2009 08:33 am
@salima,
salima;94769 wrote:
i think it is obvious that whoever is happy would like to live forever and whoever is not happy would just as soon die, the sooner the better. unless they are really optimistic they will be happy some day of course.

i wouldnt mind living forever if i could be happy forever. in fact i wouldnt mind dying tomorrow if i could just be happy today...actually i dont think i would mind dying tomorrow very much either way.

how come all you guys sound so happy?


Simply because conscious thought is an amazing thing. I dont understand how anyone cannot stand in happy astonishment when thinking of the bounds of a reality defined by that reality...its truly paradoxical.
 
evenflow
 
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 08:54 am
@Elmud,
I think eventually immortality would drive most people insane. With only a finite amount of things to keep yourself preoccupied with, over an infinite amount of time would make almost everything boring eventually.

I would only like to have immortality with the provision that i could die if I chose to.
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 01:14 pm
@evenflow,
evenflow;100302 wrote:
I think eventually immortality would drive most people insane. With only a finite amount of things to keep yourself preoccupied with, over an infinite amount of time would make almost everything boring eventually.

I would only like to have immortality with the provision that i could die if I chose to.
We could recombine what exists ad infinitum though.

But yeah, if things were finite we would go insane =)
 
Popescu Dan
 
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 04:44 am
@glasstrees,
I think this is the whole point of life, the answer to the big question. From the moment we are born we have a time frame of about 60 years (if we`re lucky) to find a cure for death.
I really do think that science and medicine could eventually find a way for us to live forever; either by rejuvenating our bodies or by creating new ones and transferring our brain (not our memories,because that would just mean making a copy of ourselves).
If everyone on earth would contribute to the research i am sure that in a matter of 2-3 generations we would find a way to live forever.Maybe even 1 generation if meanwhile we find ways to prolong our lives.
Also i don`t think that if anyone on this earth would be put face to face with death, they would choose to end their lives, knowing that they can live more, experiencing new things, living a better life or reliving past experiences.
 
manored
 
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 12:30 pm
@Popescu Dan,
Popescu Dan;103104 wrote:
I think this is the whole point of life, the answer to the big question. From the moment we are born we have a time frame of about 60 years (if we`re lucky) to find a cure for death.
I really do think that science and medicine could eventually find a way for us to live forever; either by rejuvenating our bodies or by creating new ones and transferring our brain (not our memories,because that would just mean making a copy of ourselves).
If everyone on earth would contribute to the research i am sure that in a matter of 2-3 generations we would find a way to live forever.Maybe even 1 generation if meanwhile we find ways to prolong our lives.
Also i don`t think that if anyone on this earth would be put face to face with death, they would choose to end their lives, knowing that they can live more, experiencing new things, living a better life or reliving past experiences.
I dont think the point of life is to find a way of living forever, but I certainly dont oppose that =)

I saw a documentary in discovery channel where a world-renowed especialist in technologic advances said that in about 15 years we will have the technology necessary for immortal life. I think he is being overly optimistic (what is comprehensible, since he really wants to live forever, but his family has an history of poor health, so much the medics say its unlikely that he will live more 15 years and because of that he is having his life pretty much didacted by doctors, medicines and exercises in order to make it) but then again I am not a specialist =)

There are some people who want to kill thenselves but dont manage to. How that goes is a mystery to me, since there are manners of suicide that require neither skill nor guts.

The whole "tranfer your mind into a computer" thing is really troubling indeed. Wouldnt our idea of "self" still be tied to the body with just a copy of ourselves believing itself to be us on the other side? Wouldnt we still die?

That makes me wonder what keeps our mind in our brain, since our brain is constantly changing with new connections and the dead of neurons... and it makes it seen to me almost impossible that there isnt some kind of "super natural" force or principle behind that. Maybe if we copied our mind and got rid of the old vessel that force would make sure it was us and not a copy, but, then again, it would only be relevant to us, not to anyone outside, so there is no way others can test that for us...
 
Popescu Dan
 
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 02:07 pm
@manored,
Quote:
The whole "transfer your mind into a computer" thing is really troubling indeed. Wouldnt our idea of "self" still be tied to the body with just a copy of ourselves believing itself to be us on the other side? Wouldnt we still die?

I believe that if it were possible to create a brain and structure it identical to mine at a molecular level, each copied cell with the same properties, position, connection ,etc. that clone of mine would actually be me at that point.After having experienced something different than it would become another individual.
That's why if there were any transfer possible it should be of the whole brain. Razz As someone said earlier it is a shame we can`t live longer and see what will happen...
 
manored
 
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 12:18 pm
@Popescu Dan,
Popescu Dan;103169 wrote:
I believe that if it were possible to create a brain and structure it identical to mine at a molecular level, each copied cell with the same properties, position, connection ,etc. that clone of mine would actually be me at that point.After having experienced something different than it would become another individual.
That's why if there were any transfer possible it should be of the whole brain. Razz As someone said earlier it is a shame we can`t live longer and see what will happen...
Hum... makes sense... but what if pieces of your brain are slowly and one at a time replaced with eletronic pieces? Wouldnt that make your whole brain become eletronic, yet your conscience still there? =)

What keeps the mind tied to the brain? Thats what troubles me.
 
Popescu Dan
 
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 05:14 pm
@manored,
Quote:
What keeps the mind tied to the brain? Thats what troubles me.
Why do you think these are two different things? Smile Isnt the mind just a product of your brain, the way your brain was taught to see and react to things? Sry if its a dumb question but i dont really believe in the idea of a soul.. i just think that any behavior including being good or bad can be explained (genetics+lived experiences=soul Razz )
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 12:23 pm
@Popescu Dan,
Popescu Dan;103382 wrote:
Why do you think these are two different things? Smile Isnt the mind just a product of your brain, the way your brain was taught to see and react to things? Sry if its a dumb question but i dont really believe in the idea of a soul.. i just think that any behavior including being good or bad can be explained (genetics+lived experiences=soul Razz )
But what happens to the mind, to our idea of self, then the brain takes damage or is modified? Thats something that requires the idea of soul to explain =)

Basically, the end of conscience is impossible (so much that it doesnt ever happen) so there must be something that connects it to the brain, since the brain is something that can end and thus cannot be the same thing.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 04:03 am
@glasstrees,
I have reservation about living forever,

I would not like to live in a hell like domain forever

I would like to live forever, in a place of love, joy and meaning and purpose absence of fear
 
whistle
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 01:57 am
@glasstrees,
The thought of death terrifies me, so naturally living forever would be a blessing.
Yes, i would probably end up insane, but who cares about the details eh? Smile
 
Hi My Name Is
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 09:42 am
@glasstrees,
I sadly disagree with you on your opinion. Say, if you really did turn insane. Would you really want to suffer forever inside the vast abyss of your own mind? Not being able to end the pain quickly? Not being able to sleep at night because of your raging brain... and not being able to stop it. Those who fear death do not realize what exactly death is. A numbing of the mind, an anesthetic. I am not suggesting you become suicidal, heavens no. But living forever disrupts the natural order of things and unbalances the way of Earth.

Ignorance is bliss. But stupidity is not. Sadly, they are the same thing.

---------- Post added 01-05-2010 at 10:44 AM ----------

Alan McDougall;103595 wrote:
I have reservation about living forever,

I would not like to live in a hell like domain forever

I would like to live forever, in a place of love, joy and meaning and purpose absence of fear


Ignorance is bliss.

Wake up to reality.

:brickwall:
 
Merry Prankster
 
Reply Tue 5 Jan, 2010 11:38 am
@glasstrees,
By the time you get to be 60 years old you're going to have so many memories floating in your head you will stop being able to think clearly so after a while it's just gonna be annoying, you won't know where you are anymore, where your memories stop and reality begins. The thought of growing old scares me. Live fast and die young.
 
NecromanticSin
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 10:56 am
@glasstrees,
I think if life was forever,in blissful and perfectness,not only would we get bored but we would figure out ways to end this endless life. I like pain,and suffer beacuse i'm sure as some could agree, creativity comes from it. So does joy,and love but... that's rare.
If we were living forever,noone would find the means to do those things they make a list of. '' the list of things i wanna do before i die'' and it would cause people to be less exciting.
On the other hand,it could go the completely other way and we can do,feel,touch and be everything we ever dreamt of! If that was so,would that be the cure to everything? Would a life where you get to do and see everything more valuable then the reality of what we are doing now?

isn't it fun when questions promote more questions? *big cheesy smile*
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 6 Jan, 2010 06:44 pm
@Hi My Name Is,
Hi! My Name Is:;117276 wrote:
I sadly disagree with you on your opinion. Say, if you really did turn insane. Would you really want to suffer forever inside the vast abyss of your own mind? Not being able to end the pain quickly? Not being able to sleep at night because of your raging brain... and not being able to stop it. Those who fear death do not realize what exactly death is. A numbing of the mind, an anesthetic. I am not suggesting you become suicidal, heavens no. But living forever disrupts the natural order of things and unbalances the way of Earth.
If he turned insane he would never notice it. To become insane is to cease to see the world as it is, so we are all a bit insane =)

Actually we may all be very very insane. Right now I might actually be in an asylum somewhere beating my head against a wall, while my mind thinks im in a house typing away in a computer. Does it matter? No. Insanity is only relevant for yourself if you have lapses of sanity.

As I see it, death and insanity are, for the individual, the same thing. Both are escapes.

I dont believe there exists an natural order to things, they just are what they are. Humans became immortal? We can just stop reproducing until we develop the technology to colonize another planets.

Merry Prankster;117311 wrote:
By the time you get to be 60 years old you're going to have so many memories floating in your head you will stop being able to think clearly so after a while it's just gonna be annoying, you won't know where you are anymore, where your memories stop and reality begins. The thought of growing old scares me. Live fast and die young.
How can you know, if you arent old yet? =)

Even if someone you know that is old says so, you have no way of knowing if your brain will age in the same way. Everone ages differently. Besides, you will probally not notice it then it happens.

NecromanticSin;117737 wrote:
I think if life was forever,in blissful and perfectness,not only would we get bored but we would figure out ways to end this endless life. I like pain,and suffer beacuse i'm sure as some could agree, creativity comes from it. So does joy,and love but... that's rare.
If we were living forever,noone would find the means to do those things they make a list of. '' the list of things i wanna do before i die'' and it would cause people to be less exciting.
On the other hand,it could go the completely other way and we can do,feel,touch and be everything we ever dreamt of! If that was so,would that be the cure to everything? Would a life where you get to do and see everything more valuable then the reality of what we are doing now?

isn't it fun when questions promote more questions? *big cheesy smile*
I think we would never get tired of life, there would always be more things to do. For example my favorite author, Douglas Adams, created a character that became immortal through an accident. He eventually got bored and decided to go out on a quest to insult ever living being than ever existed or would exist (he had acess to a time machine). Is it something to do? Yes. Can it be accomplished? No. So that guy wouldnt ever get tired of life. =)

We could find equally ridiculous and time-consuming things to do. We could, for instance, create enormous armies of robots and play war against each other (one of my favorite ideas). Because we would all be immortal and able to learn from the competition against the others, we could do that for the eternity.
 
 

 
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