What separates humans from apes?

@xris,

xris;72695 wrote:

I appreciate your dismissal but it does not answer the questions of our genetic history.I would not have contemplated it if i had not been told all blue individuals had originated from one individual.Then i cant understand how we all originated from one other individual.Does the whole of humanity depend on the survival of one women who happened to be the first homosapien.If green eyes are a mutation why did they not become more prevelant,the story of our ancestors may not be alien but we have a long way to go before we explain these mysteries.Genetics it appears is causing more questions than it gives answers.

Inbreeding which is the story of human prehistory made even those with a fear of incest marry their sisters for lack of other choices...There is one genetic type in Europe... There are a few strains, but essentially, wars and diseases have concentrated genes more than most people would imagine...Some people in my family submitted genes for testing and like perhaps hundreds of thousands of people in America, were related back to a single male individual...If you get into the vicinity of some large cities in Europe, people are genetically related to a high degree beyond a horizon none of them can no longer see beyond... We have lost our gentile concern for lineage... We need no more concern for parental connections that will clarify inheritance rights...An Iroquois could tell you his parents six generations back...In a near by community the priest had to tell people to start looking outside of their communities for mates, because three generations back they were all related... Why did they need a priest to tell them that; and did not know it themselves??? Just as with tribes, the tendency was to marry the near and spurn the far...I think think that is the title of one famous anthropology book, where far mates were looked upon as animals... Well it is always so, where few have the courage to break societal norms of beauty and fair even when the alternative is possible...

There is a reason genes are spread when they are spread, as much as why they are not spread when they are concentrated...Civilization is in many respect the enemy of genetic health; and the reason for this is simple...There is not sufficient regard for genetic health, and without feuds, no one trades brides as a means of making allies of enemies...

@Fido,

Fido;72893 wrote:

There is one genetic type in Europe...

Where did you get this idea?? Here are some haplotype maps of Europe...

http://www.le.ac.uk/ge/maj4/EuropeMap+Tree.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png

http://www.tdaxp.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/genmapeuropea2-479x281.jpg

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p217/dpwes/NE_Europe.png

@Aedes,

Quote:

Aedes;72903 wrote:
Where did you get this idea?? Here are some haplotype maps of Europe...

All I can tell you is what the information was on the gene sample some of my family sent in for testing... We share some genes with a chief from Ireland, but I am 3/4 German; and what does that mean... The Galic peoples apparantly came all the way from India through Asia Minor, the Balkans and France...The Germans over lapped their area long enough so that many places taken over by Germans and Franks, more Germans have Galic place names, which means a lot of inter breeding while the Gauls were being displaced...Look at all the people who were in Ireland, so much so that some people estimate only ten percent of Gaulish genes survived...Yet, they can trace the Irish strain in my family, again, to a single individual...My Son is part Jewish, from Polish, Eastern European Jews... As Myth of the Jewish Race would suggest, his genes are primarily, which is to say identifiably European... I am not an expert in Genetics... Again; all I can tell you is what I read on the report which stressed a near identity to all European genes; and you know science is such that it can draw a fine line... What part of what percent of our genetic material do you think is different, and what does that difference mean??? We have a 99% commonality of genetic material with other primates...In most respects 99% is close enough to all... Our differences between ourselves is quite slight... As one person described it: our differences considered as a whole are slight compared to our differences as individuals.... All of your differences may in fact represent one percent of one percent, if that much, and that slight difference may represent health or illness, and every variation in appearance we have come to expect.... At what point do your scientificly measurable differences become significant??? Remember; we have the ability to sense a sun falling at a high rate of speed into a dark hole in a distant galaxy... What does it mean???

@Fido,

Sorry but this gene business is completely bewildering to me.I have two sons with brown eyes and a daughter with blue.She by all accounts like me can trace her genes back to one individual with blue eyes,so what about my sons with brown eyes? so certain people with brown eyes are also related to the guy with blues eyes,so is everyone?We are all related to one women in Africa so why are our genes different.What event changed our genes in our history of migration and isolation?Its a bit complicated.Is it evolution by isolation that changes us? but then evolution they say takes millions of years and we have not been isolated from each other for that long.I will have to do some reading..

@Alan McDougall,

Fido, 99% commonality leaves a whole lot of room for diversity when our genome has billions of base pairs.

And not every genetic marker is manifest in an easily identified phenotype.

Taxonomy of species has radically changed now that they can be defined by molecular markers. If we can't even call species based on appearances alone, then we're certainly not going to see all of human genetic diversity with our own eyes.

@xris,

xris;73058 wrote:

Sorry but this gene business is completely bewildering to me.I have two sons with brown eyes and a daughter with blue.She by all accounts like me can trace her genes back to one individual with blue eyes,so what about my sons with brown eyes? so certain people with brown eyes are also related to the guy with blues eyes,so is everyone?We are all related to one women in Africa so why are our genes different.What event changed our genes in our history of migration and isolation?Its a bit complicated.Is it evolution by isolation that changes us? but then evolution they say takes millions of years and we have not been isolated from each other for that long.I will have to do some reading..

Our genes are not different... Our characteristics are different.... If our differences from great apes is less than 1% then our difference from each other may be well less that one percent of one percent, and still account for all of our differences of appearance...If you consider all the different species, even of ungulates with which we have had a long history, one should consider why we are everywhere human, which is a social phenomenon... We seem to be conscious of what we are, and by resiting incest, we keep ourselves human...

@Fido,

Fido;73143 wrote:

Our genes are not different... Our characteristics are different.... If our differences from great apes is less than 1% then our difference from each other may be well less that one percent of one percent, and still account for all of our differences of appearance...If you consider all the different species, even of ungulates with which we have had a long history, one should consider why we are everywhere human, which is a social phenomenon... We seem to be conscious of what we are, and by resiting incest, we keep ourselves human...

Im sorry if im wrong but i thought i read somewhere that our genes differ by up to two percent in humans.We have less difference with our relationship to the apes than each other,1% and how long did that 1% take to show significant changes in our characteristics.

@Alan McDougall,

Do you guys even know what you're talking about when you say 1% or 2%?

This has to do with sequence homology of our genomes.

It does not in any way evince the major differences in gene expression, which are what ACTUALLY produce differences in phenotype. The utility of looking at 1% or whatever sequence homology is that we can use that to estimate the time since our divergence from common ancestry.

@Aedes,

Aedes;73673 wrote:

Do you guys even know what you're talking about when you say 1% or 2%?

This has to do with sequence homology of our genomes.

It does not in any way evince the major differences in gene expression, which are what ACTUALLY produce differences in phenotype. The utility of looking at 1% or whatever sequence homology is that we can use that to estimate the time since our divergence from common ancestry.

Obviously not Aedas but then i expect 99% of the forum assumed that the 2% mentioned tells us the difference in our gene pool from one person to another.Your telling me it just like tree rings and does not describe the difference between man and ape?

@xris,

xris;73681 wrote:

Obviously not Aedas but then i expect 99% of the forum assumed that the 2% mentioned tells us the difference in our gene pool from one person to another.Your telling me it just like tree rings and does not describe the difference between man and ape?

It's insufficient to tell us much about the phenotypic differences between humans and apes (or even between different humans). First, we can have developmental genes that hare 100% identical to those of a chimp, but if we express those genes at higher levels, or for longer, or in different cells, then even the 100% similitude in this case will result in a different phenotype.

Secondly, not all of our DNA is similarly prone to or immune from mutation. We have genes that are highly conserved, i.e. evolution does not tolerate any variation. But there are non-coding sequences between genes that are not under selective pressure at all, and these DO provide evidence as to evolutionary distance.

Segments of a chromosome migrate together to offspring. So if you have a gene that is highly conserved, it will migrate with flanking sequences that are NOT conserved. The more diverse these flanking sequences are, especially close to the gene in question, the more generations have passed since divergence from a different species.

@Aedes,

So when i read there is a 2% divergence in human genes as opposed to say 4% between humans and apes it means very little? so why is it always emphasised so much in telling us how little we differ? I will have to question every bit of literature i read on genes.
I bow to your knowledge but it appears very strange all the popular publications never indicates the data is not very informative.

@xris,

xris;73734 wrote:

So when i read there is a 2% divergence in human genes as opposed to say 4% between humans and apes it means very little? so why is it always emphasised so much in telling us how little we differ? I will have to question every bit of literature i read on genes.
I bow to your knowledge but it appears very strange all the popular publications never indicates the data is not very informative.

Hi xris that 2% difference is huge, the chimp bashes a few stones together, or fishes for termites with a piece of grass and grunts at each other. Humans on the other hand, have utilised and manipulated nuclear energy, built the Space Shuttle and the Taj Mahal and have language so sophisticated that we can philosophy on the meaning of life, death and can admire other humans we have never met by this means.

If we just think about genetics as the factor that separates as from the beast then we share about 80% of our genetic material with the earth worm

Peace

@Aedes,

Aedes;73673 wrote:

Do you guys even know what you're talking about when you say 1% or 2%?

This has to do with sequence homology of our genomes.

It does not in any way evince the major differences in gene expression, which are what ACTUALLY produce differences in phenotype. The utility of looking at 1% or whatever sequence homology is that we can use that to estimate the time since our divergence from common ancestry.

I agree with you... Most of our genetic material is just tacked on... To say we have 99% of our genetic material in common with other primates really does not say much...The fact that we have another chromasome might mean something, or is that one less... I will guarantee that it is not genes alone which make us what we are... Our forms as the way we conceive of knowledge and transmit knowledge have as much to do with our being human..

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;61323 wrote:

. What really separates us humans from our cousins the apes?

Here are a few attributes I think we can bounce off with

The smartest ape the chimp is much smarter than the least intelligent human, there is an overlap of intellects is there not. ?

Humans, a strong spirit of inquiry or do they?.

Some of us research in the fields of astronomy, mathematics, medicine and physics is noteworthy. (But some just sit staring into space doing much less than a chimp using his stick to fish out termites)

Humans yearn for meaning in life. This is why they devote so much of their time to philosophy, theology and ethics.

Religious sentiments and practices of all humans can be traced back to their intense and endless quest for meaning. some of us on the other hand simply could not care a damn

Humans are concerned about questions not only of origin but also of destiny we know one day we will die.' Do chimps know the will die one day?

Humans, have a strong creative impulse. This is seen in their poetry, painting, dance, drama and music. (Chimps are creative but on a basic level)

Humans sometimes reason, language, inquiry, wonder, longing, religion, morality, aesthetics, creativity, imagination, aspiration and humor

Humans love

Nevertheless we are apes like it or not naked apes at that

Take our clothes off, put us naked in a cage with a tiger and we become a little puny weak animal

Can you come up with more after all we humans are created in the image and likeness of God and apes are not or are they?

One thing about ape evolution is that apes like the chimp have not evolved for millions of years and yet we humans have, why is that?

We have different DNA. The difference is about 2 %. And that seems to make all the difference. We are not apes of any kind, naked or otherwise. What is the fact that we would have problems with a tiger supposed to show about our relation to apes? Nothing, that I can see.

@xris,

xris;73734 wrote:

so why is it always emphasised so much in telling us how little we differ?

The point is that relatively small genetic changes can result in immense differences in phenotype. We are extremely close to the great apes in terms of evolutionary divergence. But the 5% divergence or whatever is enough to make the difference between chimp and human. How can we be so different from one another and yet have such similar DNA? Because that 5% isn't telling you anything about its functionality.

Even with plants, with yeast, with bacteria we have some genes that have 40-50% homology -- these are critical factors in cellular function that have been in our genomes since the evolution of the cell.

With our closest relatives, like the extinct hominid and human species, with our closest living relatives among the primates, etc, the vast majority of genes have barely evolved at all since our divergence. But the key ones that make a chimp like a chimp and a human like a human are the ones that account for this very small difference. Major differences in phenotype can be produced by small differences in genotype, but the actual sequence doesn't tell the whole story -- the regulatory differences produced by the genetic differences are where the money is.

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;73822 wrote:

Hi xris that 2% difference is huge, the chimp bashes a few stones together, or fishes for termites with a piece of grass and grunts at each other. Humans on the other hand, have utilised and manipulated nuclear energy, built the Space Shuttle and the Taj Mahal and have language so sophisticated that we can philosophy on the meaning of life, death and can admire other humans we have never met by this means.

If we just think about genetics as the factor that separates as from the beast then we share about 80% of our genetic material with the earth worm

Peace

In a word, we have forms...With forms we can hold knowledge and transmit knowledge, and so build knowledge... We have not changed much genetically from Apes, or physically... We suffer from many of the same diseases, and the same emotional trauma... If they are still nesting in trees, it is only in part that they cannot vocalize as we, but otherwise cannot change their forms, or abstract knowledge by way of forms...It is our means of progress... I'd have a pocket full of hundreds if I had a nickle for ever time I had been compared to an ape...I used to walk iron and climb columns and live and act like a brute...It is hard for me today, long removed from it to consider the loads I used to carry up ladders or on my shoulders... I remember having been off for a while and seeing big beams, and thinking how heavy they looked, and after a few weeks I was picking them up and walking off with them... We may wonder what it is for the ape living at death's door, hanging all on a thread of fibre, and trusting to good fortune... I have been there...And having been brutalized at one point by others, I must wonder why anyone in their right mind would do it... That is what we are all trying to escape, whether we know it or not...As a brute, living by ones senses, instinct, lusts, appatites and violence makes life too immediate, and that is a hard spell to break... And look at how many we have, individualist, Nietzsche'ens, Randroids who think they are the center of it all... Are they any different than the criminal with a gun thinking every day might be his last like the poor ironworker??? We need to think about tomorrow, and without that we cannot think about others...

@Fido,

Fido;73848 wrote:

I agree with you... Most of our genetic material is just tacked on... To say we have 99% of our genetic material in common with other primates really does not say much...The fact that we have another chromasome might mean something, or is that one less...

That 99% generally refers to coding sequences and not 'junk' DNA. Most of this genetic material is very much important to our biological existence. But it's stuff that is part of cellular metabolism, hormone production, blah blah blah and stuff that has not been under selective pressure to change or has not had enough time. In other words, the change that has produced chimps on the one hand and humans on the other is generally not reflected in many of our basic processes.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;73849 wrote:

We have different DNA. The difference is about 2 %. And that seems to make all the difference. We are not apes of any kind, naked or otherwise. What is the fact that we would have problems with a tiger supposed to show about our relation to apes? Nothing, that I can see.

I am sure that we would still be considered as primates...

@Alan McDougall,

We are taxonomically in the Order Primates. So are everything down to ring-tailed lemurs, though.

We are in the same Family (Hominidae) as all of the great apes, and in the "Tribe" of the Hominidae there are two living Genera: Pan and Homo.

In other words, we are taxonomically closer to the chimpanzees (Pan) than the chimps are to all other of the great ape species.

Like it or not, we ARE great apes in the taxonomic sense.

Hominini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hominidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Aedes,

Aedes;73858 wrote:

We are taxonomically in the Order Primates. So are everything down to ring-tailed lemurs, though.

We are in the same Family (Hominidae) as all of the great apes, and in the "Tribe" of the Hominidae there are two living Genera: Pan and Homo.

In other words, we are taxonomically closer to the chimpanzees (Pan) than the chimps are to all other of the great ape species.

Like it or not, we ARE great apes in the taxonomic sense.

Hominini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hominidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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