Amazingly Fatty Foods

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xris
 
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 02:33 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Yea, me neither. I can't imagine some food combinations folks put together.

But for you across the various ponds and such; this thing is a story precisely because it isn't the norm; and probably isn't any more prevailant here as anywhere else (besides, who's going to define "odd"). But no, as a country we might not eat very well. But the stuff mentioned in the OP story is definitely fringe.

Thanks
Dam I've just booked a flight hoping it was the norm..
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 02:42 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Yea, me neither. I can't imagine some food combinations folks put together.

But for you across the various ponds and such; this thing is a story precisely because it isn't the norm; and probably isn't any more prevailant here as anywhere else (besides, who's going to define "odd"). But no, as a country we might not eat very well. But the stuff mentioned in the OP story is definitely fringe.

Thanks

I was speaking of the tendency to mix sweet things with savory in highly unsubtle ways, which I found pretty universal in my months in the US, and prevalent again here. The first time my eggs had maple syrup on (from the adjacent pancake), I almost cried. Is it to save on washing dishes after or what?
 
CarolA
 
Reply Sun 15 Mar, 2009 11:50 pm
@Khethil,
I feel ill just thinking about the food on that web site. All jokes aside - fast food is usually revolting, sometimes it is easier to starve than eat it! At least we have a lot of Asian food places here in Adelaide, Australia due to the university population, many of whom are from Malaysia, Singapore etc. But in some areas greasy burgers seem to be the only fast food available. Shocking in a country that produces beautiful fresh food.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 12:23 am
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
I was speaking of the tendency to mix sweet things with savory in highly unsubtle ways, which I found pretty universal in my months in the US, and prevalent again here. The first time my eggs had maple syrup on (from the adjacent pancake), I almost cried. Is it to save on washing dishes after or what?


I can't speak for every American, but I enjoy sweet with meat sometimes. Our BBQ's (gathering of people, meat grilled) usually involve some kind of "BBQ sauce". This sauce is generally sweet in flavor (often times molasses is added), and is placed over chicken, pork, and beef. I adore it if prepared up to my standards (having been in involved in culinary arts for a while, I'm quite picky)

I understand where you're coming from, though. My Serbian friend finds mixing sweet with meat revolting also.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 04:59 am
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
I was speaking of the tendency to mix sweet things with savory in highly unsubtle ways, which I found pretty universal in my months in the US, and prevalent again here. The first time my eggs had maple syrup on (from the adjacent pancake), I almost cried. Is it to save on washing dishes after or what?


Haha, I don't know. If you're talking about what I *think* you're talking about, I can't stand it - nor seen much of it - either; like... ice cream and, say, sausage (?).

Bleh
 
Icon
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 06:42 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
I can't speak for every American, but I enjoy sweet with meat sometimes. Our BBQ's (gathering of people, meat grilled) usually involve some kind of "BBQ sauce". This sauce is generally sweet in flavor (often times molasses is added), and is placed over chicken, pork, and beef. I adore it if prepared up to my standards (having been in involved in culinary arts for a while, I'm quite picky)

I understand where you're coming from, though. My Serbian friend finds mixing sweet with meat revolting also.

I prefer my BBQ sauce to be savory with a bit of kick (spice). I like the kind of spice that just sort of grabs the back of your throat and makes you choke a bit. MMMmmmmmmmm.

As far as mixing sweet and savory, Do you guys not eat apple grilled chicken? Honey glazed ham? Turkey in sweet cranberry? Really?!

Do you just boil everything?!

I can cook relatively healthy meals which mix sweet and savory and spicey and every other sensational flavor available. The catch is how you cook it and the ingredients you use.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:35 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I prefer my BBQ sauce to be savory with a bit of kick (spice). I like the kind of spice that just sort of grabs the back of your throat and makes you choke a bit. MMMmmmmmmmm.

As far as mixing sweet and savory, Do you guys not eat apple grilled chicken? Honey glazed ham? Turkey in sweet cranberry? Really?!

Do you just boil everything?!

I can cook relatively healthy meals which mix sweet and savory and spicey and every other sensational flavor available. The catch is how you cook it and the ingredients you use.
Of course we do, but maple syrup with bacon just a bit to much.Apple sauce with pork is ok and BBQ sauce, i suppose dont knock it till you've tried it.. Do you have vindaloo curries thats the real question?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:38 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Of course we do, but maple syrup with bacon just a bit to much.Apple sauce with pork is ok and BBQ sauce, i suppose dont knock it till you've tried it.. Do you have vindaloo curries thats the real question?


The maple syrup is usually placed over the pancakes/waffles. I've never heard of anyone putting maple syrup directly over bacon, it's just that bacon happens to be generally served on the same plate as pancakes. So, I guess some of the syrup has the possibility of getting on the bacon, haha.
 
Icon
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:46 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
The maple syrup is usually placed over the pancakes/waffles. I've never heard of anyone putting maple syrup directly over bacon, it's just that bacon happens to be generally served on the same plate as pancakes. So, I guess some of the syrup has the possibility of getting on the bacon, haha.

Oh no, we cook bacon in maple syrup. Frankly, I don't eat or cook bacon. Horrid smell, too strong a flavor and it is the fastest way to have a heart attack.

Bacon is like onions. When people don't know how to spice a dish properly to add flavor, they just add onion. I hate onion for this very reason. It is used too often as an all-spice.

I like using a myriad of flavors in every course I cook. I like to mix spicy, savory, sweet, bitter and tangy. If you can manage all of these in a single three course meal, you can cause someone to orgasm from flavor alone.

I don't fry anything and I usually avoid butter if I can help it. I only use Extra vigin olive oil when I need oil but most of the time I like to make a nice sauce to cook my foods in.

I suppose I am a bit spoiled for an american since I make time to cook and can afford the better organic ingredients (yes it makes a HUGE difference).

As far as vindaloo curry, I am not familiar with it but curry in general is good. I usually make a nice cury chicken and noodle dish I call ulan after the man who helped me originate it. I substitute tortilla boiled in chicken broth for some of the noodles which adds just a bit more flavor.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:55 am
@Icon,
Oh a vindaloo a curry you taste twice..Indians would not dare eat one much tooo hot..blows your head off.I dont eat them anymore, more like a show of courage than a taste.If you can guess what your eating, it aint a vindaloo.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:56 am
@Khethil,
It's actually not necessarily true that the natural animal fat from bacon clogs arteries, same goes with butter -- it's all over-hyped. From my research, I've found just as many studies advocating it does as those that purport against this claim. Moderation usually won't affect many negatively. Personally, I eat many eggs, butter-items, and fatty meats, and I'm healthy (though I understand this word is ambiguous, I'm certainly not on a fast track to a heart attack!). What I steer clear from are the processed fats created by us (like margarine) that contain hydrogenated oils, which we actually made to *replace* the natural fats (because we thought those were the problem!). I don't have the scientific evidence to prove any of these claims on a larger scale: all I have is the research I do on a daily basis, seeking unbiased medical journal and studies. Even if you wikipedia "saturated fat", you'll see what I'm saying -- there's studies on both ends of the spectrum. The *fads* of this country control the masses, unfortunately, and not many care enough to do the research.

As for cooking bacon with maple syrup: I've never experienced this.
 
Icon
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 07:59 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
Oh a vindaloo a curry you taste twice..Indians would not dare eat one much tooo hot..blows your head off.I dont eat them anymore, more like a show of courage than a taste.If you can guess what your eating, it aint a vindaloo.

Sounds yummy.

Keep in mind that I LOVE to cook with devil tongues and red habaneros. I'm from texas. Chili isn't good unless it makes your throat bleed :shifty:

Zetherin wrote:

As for cooking bacon with maple syrup: I've never experienced this.


Try it some time. Soak the bacon in maple syrup before hand then cook regularly, empty the grease between each batch.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Mon 16 Mar, 2009 08:43 am
@Khethil,
I cook with unrefined coconut oil all the time, which is extremely high in its saturated fat content. But with the way that saturated fat is demonized, many people ignore this very healthy oil. Most of the saturated fat in the oil comes in the form of lauric acid--a very beneficial fatty acid. There is a major difference between animal derived saturated fat, and vegetable derived saturated fats.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 02:40 pm
@Theaetetus,
Mixing sweet with savory on the breakfast plate is awesome: I love the flavor of maple syrup on my bacon (mmm bacon) and in breakfast sausage (again mmm) and in some well-salted fried eggs (yum!), with pancakes, French toast, or waffles, of course.

I think Brits have some very odd taste buds. Steak-and-kidney pie, really? Why do you want to eat something that makes pee? I'm gonna heave...of course I also think scrapple's weird and I'm from Philadelphia. But well and truly the oddest food combination I've ever heard of is putting fried chicken and gravy on waffles, which, apparently, they do in Baltimore.

I wonder how bad shoo-fly pie is? Really tasty, though...
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 02:54 pm
@hammersklavier,
hammersklavier wrote:
Mixing sweet with savory on the breakfast plate is awesome: I love the flavor of maple syrup on my bacon (mmm bacon) and in breakfast sausage (again mmm) and in some well-salted fried eggs (yum!), with pancakes, French toast, or waffles, of course.

I think Brits have some very odd taste buds. Steak-and-kidney pie, really? Why do you want to eat something that makes pee? I'm gonna heave...of course I also think scrapple's weird and I'm from Philadelphia. But well and truly the oddest food combination I've ever heard of is putting fried chicken and gravy on waffles, which, apparently, they do in Baltimore.

I wonder how bad shoo-fly pie is? Really tasty, though...
Kidneys thats a no no for me yuk..Have you ever had french snails or pike sausages ,what a treat:sarcastic: I do think you should watch your sugar and fat intake, it dont sound too healthy, thats me having my third glass of red wine..
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 03:15 pm
@Khethil,
And oil intake, I'm from Philly, Italian hoagies dripping with that funky hoagie oil = yummm in my book. Cheesesteaks and their porcine cousins, too, wiz wit. Hm, I wonder why we're one of the fattest cities in America? :sarcastic:
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 03:20 pm
@hammersklavier,
hammersklavier wrote:
And oil intake, I'm from Philly, Italian hoagies dripping with that funky hoagie oil = yummm in my book. Cheesesteaks and their porcine cousins, too, wiz wit. Hm, I wonder why we're one of the fattest cities in America? :sarcastic:


Haha, I'm my philly too. Pat's or Geno's?
xris wrote:

Have you ever had french snails or pike sausages ,what a treat


snails + red wine = to die for .
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 06:21 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;53674 wrote:
It's actually not necessarily true that the natural animal fat from bacon clogs arteries, same goes with butter -- it's all over-hyped. From my research, I've found just as many studies advocating it does as those that purport against this claim...
Dietary saturated fat intake more than any other factor determines serum LDL cholesterol, which is one of the strongest vascular disease risk factors. Generally diet alone is not sufficient to achieve ideal levels, so drugs (esp the HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors like Lipitor, Crestor, etc) are needed as well. Here's one abstract from a systematic review:

Quote:
[SIZE="2"]In observational epidemiologic studies, lower blood cholesterol is associated with a reduced risk from coronary heart disease (CHD) throughout the normal range of cholesterol values observed in most Western populations. There is a continuous positive relationship between CHD risk and blood cholesterol down to at least 3 to 4 mmol/l, with no threshold below which a lower cholesterol is not associated with a lower risk. Observational studies suggest that a prolonged difference in total cholesterol of about 1 mmol/l is associated with one-third less CHD deaths in middle age. Evidence from large-scale cholesterol lowering trials in patients at high-risk of CHD have demonstrated that much of the epidemiologically predicted difference in CHD risk associated with differences in cholesterol was achieved within a few years of treatment. Moreover, these trials have demonstrated that such therapy was not associated with increased non-CHD mortality. Total cholesterol is transported in blood as low-density lipoprotein cholesterol or LDL cholesterol (about 70%) and as high density lipoprotein cholesterol or HDL cholesterol (about 30%). Since these two cholesterol fractions have opposing effects on vascular risk, a 1 mmol/l reduction in LDL cholesterol is likely to be associated with 40 to 50% lower CHD risk. The size of the absolute reduction in CHD produced by lowering total and LDL cholesterol is determined by an individual's overall risk rather than their initial cholesterol level. Consequently, the benefits of drug treatment to lower LDL cholesterol are greater in those at higher absolute risk of CHD rather than at high cholesterol levels. Dietary saturated fat is the chief determinant of total and LDL cholesterol levels. Replacing 60% of the intake of saturated fat by other fats and reducing the intake of dietary cholesterol could reduce blood total cholesterol levels by about 0.8 mmol/l (that is by 10 to 15%), with four fifths of this reduction being in LDL cholesterol[/SIZE]


From: Huxley R et al, Semin Vasc Med. 2002 Aug;2(3):315-23


The studies that fail to show a benefit generally have shorter followup periods. There is a Cochrane systematic review (it systematically reviewed 27 trials) that showed significant reduction in cardiovascular risk and a trend towards lower all-cause mortality in subjects with a modified fat intake (both lower saturated fat and higher omega 3 fat content). This effect was only seen in studies that followed their subjects for more than 2 years.

Hooper L, Summerbell CD, Higgins JPT, Thompson RL, Clements G, Capps N, Davey Smith G, Riemersma R, Ebrahim S. Reduced or modified dietary fat for preventing cardiovascular disease. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2000, Issue 2. Art. No.: CD002137. DOI: 10.1002/14651858.CD002137.


I agree with you that not all saturated fats are equal. A healthy lifestyle (in the interest of reducing CHD risk) will include not only reduced saturated fat, but also increased polyunsaturated fats, esp fish-derived omega-3 fatty acids; fruits and vegetables; and exercise.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Mar, 2009 11:27 pm
@Khethil,
The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:
Milk-Derived Fatty Acids Are Associated with a More Favorable LDL Particle Size Distribution in Healthy Men
J. Nutr. 134:1729-1735, July 2004

Milk products have fewer sdLDL particles. sd (small dense) LDL particles, according to what I've researched over the past years, bear the increased risk of coronary heart disease. Fresh/raw milk products are considered to have a more favorable LDL profile, and therefore less risk of coronary heart disease. I believe homogenization makes the LDL profile less favorable, though this information isn't conclusive. I believe also that eggs fit into this category, but I have no conslusive evidence to support this at the moment either.

The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:
Saturated fat prevents coronary artery disease? An American paradox

Vol. 80, No. 5, 1102-1103, November 2004

I believe this illustrates the importance of diet per subject. Saturated fat intake not necessarily contributing to coronary heart disease. There are usually other diseases/problems with the body before the introduction of saturated fat having a negative effect.

In fact, in three studies I've found, replacing unsaturated fat with saturated fat proved to lower coronary heart disease risk in a low dietary fat diet. Here's two of them, though I understand these may not be considered main sources:

'Surprising' data: saturated fat may slow atherosclerotic progression in postmenopausal women | OB/GYN News | Find Articles at BNET
Risk of myocardial infarction and intake and adipose tissue composition of fatty acids | Nutrition Research Newsletter | Find Articles at BNET

Additionally, meat, eggs and butter are predominantly composed of
palmitic and stearic acids, and there is still much research going into showing how these two acids do not necessarily have the negative effects purported.

I've been studying this for quite some time and also have a few journals by Alan Aragon that pave saturated fat in a positive light. I also believe the late Vince Gironda has a few (of which I'm trying to find).

Personally, I've eaten upwards of 12 eggs a day, lots of meat, and ample amounts of butter, and I do not suffer from a higher risk of coronary disease.

I will continue this once I compile more of the research I've conducted, or if you PM me asking.

Thanks,

Zeth
 
Aedes
 
Reply Wed 18 Mar, 2009 07:04 am
@Khethil,
Zeth, I have access to all of it through Medline. Looking at systematic reviews and meta-analyses will save you a lot of time, because these are studies of the aggregate of the literature, rather than individual papers. I found one meta-analysis that suggested that the studies with the most rigorous recruitment criteria and methodology tended to show a larger effect of saturated fats than lower quality studies. This suggests that either 1) the more rigorous studies are not entirely representative, or 2) the less rigorous studies are unable to account / control for confounding variables.

But let me caution you about a couple things as you do this. First, you're doing this with a hypothesis in mind. That means you're probably looking specifically for studies that support your point of view, and you're not going to independently evaluate studies that contradict it. Coming to conclusions, especially for the purposes of guidelines, means that you need to have standardized ways of accumulating ALL studies about a subject (both positive and negative), and weighing the quality of the evidence. There are systematic grading scores. If you find that multiple randomized trials support the benefit of saturated fats, and none support the harm, that would be convincing evidence. The problem is that you're NOT going to find this. The studies supporting neutrality or benefit of saturated fats are fewer in number and smaller in size, and this is aside from the question of study quality (do they account for dropouts from the study, do they pick useful endpoints, etc).

Secondly, you need to know if any given study is generalizable. If you're studying an egg-only diet in 20 year old athletes, and your outcome measures are 1) LDL level, 2) rate of ischemic heart disease, and 3) all-cause mortality at 2 years, then this study will NOT be generalizable to elderly diabetic smokers.

And this leads to the third point, which is be VERY careful making public recommendations, because diet is one of those things that needs to be individualized. People HAVE been sued for publicly promulgating certain medical advice, and while I know your intent is to just converse about the topic, what you don't want is someone to go take your advice as a real medical recommendation and go do something that's medically inappropriate for them.
 
 

 
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