Vegetarianism is a Higher level View

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Moo hoo hoo, can't you here them crying for equality?
I can, and can see it too.

=
MJA

I was raised on a ranch... I hate to tell you this but they are generally stupid animals. We have to stop them from eating the cactus because they do so until they bleed and even kill themselves with internal bleeding.

I'm pretty sure that an animal with the grasp of equality would also have a grasp of "Eating the pointy thing hurts and killed my brother". They don't, trust me.

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

I was raised on a ranch... I hate to tell you this but they are generally stupid animals. We have to stop them from eating the cactus because they do so until they bleed and even kill themselves with internal bleeding.

I'm pretty sure that an animal with the grasp of equality would also have a grasp of "Eating the pointy thing hurts and killed my brother". They don't, trust me.

Maybe it is only our perception that is dumb.
Enlightenment is All about that.
Clearity of mind.
A cow may try to eat cactus but mankind eats cows and that is stupid to me.

=
MJA

@MJA,

Funny, I was under the understanding that elightenment had nothing to do with earthly anything. As a matter of fact, I thought it was the transcendance of earthly ideas.

@MJA,

MJA;50549 wrote:

Moo hoo hoo

hehe, very nice :rolleyes:

@Icon,

Icon wrote:

I was raised on a ranch... I hate to tell you this but they are generally stupid animals. We have to stop them from eating the cactus because they do so until they bleed and even kill themselves with internal bleeding.

I'm pretty sure that an animal with the grasp of equality would also have a grasp of "Eating the pointy thing hurts and killed my brother". They don't, trust me.

And I spent much of my youth on a farm that raised chickens and sold eggs on a small scale. Trust me when I say that chickens are often vile, mean-spirited animals. They will attack with extreme malice without provocation.

I am quite glad that the animals in my diet are not included in the "justice" discussion.

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

Maybe it is only our perception that is dumb.
Enlightenment is All about that.
Clearity of mind.
A cow may try to eat cactus but mankind eats cows and that is stupid to me.

=
MJA

Our perception is used not only to determine that cows are stupid, but also that they are living beings that may have emotions. If we dont trust our perception to determine they are stupid, we might as well not trust it to determine they are living beings that may have emotions and eat then anyway.

And my father once told me that to make a bridge humans can cross and cows cannot winhout the need of a gate, you just need to make it a bit above the ground and grated: Cows are so stupid then they try to cross it and fit their feet into the space between planks, rather than trying to put it on the planks they will determine they cannot cross it and never try it again.

And yeah there are some animals you just cant feel sorry for after you know. My brother has two turtles and their behavior is so simplistic that they are pretty much just eat & grow machines: If its dark they sleep, if its bright they try to catch sun, if its bright and there is anything resembling food around (incluiding fingers) they try to eat it, and if there is any know human around they pursue it in hopes of getting food.

@MJA,

Domesticated farm animals are living in very unnatural conditions, so it's kind of hard to impune their behavior. They've also been bred to the point where they're a shell of their wild ancestry. Look at the difference between a farm turkey and a wild turkey. Farm turkeys can barely stand because they've been bred to have so much meat.

@manored,

manored wrote:

Our perception is used not only to determine that cows are stupid, but also that they are living beings that may have emotions. If we dont trust our perception to determine they are stupid, we might as well not trust it to determine they are living beings that may have emotions and eat then anyway.

And my father once told me that to make a bridge humans can cross and cows cannot winhout the need of a gate, you just need to make it a bit above the ground and grated: Cows are so stupid then they try to cross it and fit their feet into the space between planks, rather than trying to put it on the planks they will determine they cannot cross it and never try it again.

And yeah there are some animals you just cant feel sorry for after you know. My brother has two turtles and their behavior is so simplistic that they are pretty much just eat & grow machines: If its dark they sleep, if its bright they try to catch sun, if its bright and there is anything resembling food around (incluiding fingers) they try to eat it, and if there is any know human around they pursue it in hopes of getting food.

And mankind flys planes into buildings for which a cow has never or ever done! What's stupid?

=
MJA

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Domesticated farm animals are living in very unnatural conditions, so it's kind of hard to impune their behavior. They've also been bred to the point where they're a shell of their wild ancestry. Look at the difference between a farm turkey and a wild turkey. Farm turkeys can barely stand because they've been bred to have so much meat.

Domesticated or not, they are what they are.

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

And mankind flys planes into buildings for which a cow has never or ever done! What's stupid?

=
MJA

I think the universal opinion would be that the first cow to fly a plane, into a building or not, would be the smartest cow to have ever lived.

@MJA,

MJA wrote:

And mankind flys planes into buildings for which a cow has never or ever done! What's stupid?

=
MJA

Flying a plane into a building is actually intelligent. Who would have though terrorists would combine their suicidal will with the public aerial transportation system? Their reasons for doing it might be considered stupid, depending of the observer, and I personally do, but the tactical part of the thing was brilliant anyway.

Now cows, they are wisely designed animals as they possess only the intelligence they need for survival in their natural enviroement and can therefore direct all their efforts towards reproduction and survival capacity, but this doesnt changes the fact that they are individually stupid. If they are stupid enough to be used with extreme ease, and, for the same reason, are not in my friends list, I do not see reason to not do so.

@Mr Fight the Power,

Mr. Fight the Power;50570 wrote:

Domesticated or not, they are what they are.

Why don't you spend the next few years living in a chicken coop and see how you feel by the end of it. :sarcastic:

manored;50572 wrote:

this doesnt changes the fact that they are individually stupid

define stupid -- if humans are your measure of intelligence, then everything is stupid, but cows and pigs can solve some problems. Mammals are pretty intelligent as animals go.

Guess we should all be vegetarians then, because plants are REALLY stupid.

@Aedes,

Remember, if you are going to criticize vegetarianism, it is probably best to address the actual arguments in favor of vegetarianism rather than saying 'oh, those animals are dumb'.

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Why don't you spend the next few years living in a chicken coop and see how you feel by the end of it. :sarcastic:

Roosters are very territorial and will attack someone for really no good reason at all whether they are in a coop or allowed to roam.

I have not looked into it, but I can only imagine that domestication has improved their disposition.

I was also aiming that at your comment that "they're a shell of their wild ancestry". That is really an irrelevant point.

It has also been a common fallacy in this thread to apply trends in human consciousness to other animals. We have absolutely no idea how a hen "feels" about spending its life in a coop, and we never will. I have aesthetic reservations to seeing animals harmed, but I cannot provide any real evidence to say that they are suffering.

All these vegetarians can really say is that they distinguish arbitrarily based on the complexity of behavioral patterns, or in all likelihood with more accurate terms, what is "cute" or not.

EDIT: DT, see above. I have not seen a coherent argument that could actually facilitate rebuttal.

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Why don't you spend the next few years living in a chicken coop and see how you feel by the end of it. :sarcastic:

define stupid -- if humans are your measure of intelligence, then everything is stupid, but cows and pigs can solve some problems. Mammals are pretty intelligent as animals go.

Guess we should all be vegetarians then, because plants are REALLY stupid.

My current definition of stupid, from the special point of view, is that wich has little to none learning capability. Many animals from many species can learn many things, but none is comparable to how much humans learn. Trying to record/pass forward information through writing or communication is also a token of smartness.

Of course we cant know for sure how animals think, but we if we sit down ever time we dont know something in full detail we will never get anything done.

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Remember, if you are going to criticize vegetarianism, it is probably best to address the actual arguments in favor of vegetarianism rather than saying 'oh, those animals are dumb'.

The arguments being addressed here are really the moral ones, as in whenever eating animals is moral or not and to what extend. There are also claims of that it is healthier, but I doubt it, and anyway these two arguments are not complementary.

@manored,

MFtP: So which claim do you think is more likely true: a) at least one species other than humans beings has the capacity to suffer, or, b) the only species with the capacity to suffer is homo sapiens?

Monored: Right, and the general ethical argument for vegetarianism is: as causing undue suffering is morally reprehensible, and as at least some species other than humans have the capacity to suffer, humans should try not to cause them suffering.

As far as I can tell, the intellectual capacity of any given species is not part of the vegetarian argument. I do not see the relevance of intellect.

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

MFtP: So which claim do you think is more likely true: a) at least one species other than humans beings has the capacity to suffer, or, b) the only species with the capacity to suffer is homo sapiens?

What are the physiological causes that lead a human to feel suffering?

It could be a very large portion of our genetic makeup that accounts for the ability to experience "suffering", or it could be a very insignificant portion. I have no clue where it may have developed in our evolutionary tree or where it could have developed in other branches.

It has to deal with the problem of explaining consciousness. We could build a robot that acts in all ways like a suffering human being when it endures mechanical stress, but it doesn't mean that it actually suffers.

That's the problem: any amount of similar behavior cannot be attributed to an amount of similar experience.

@MJA,

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

What are the physiological causes that lead a human to feel suffering?

The nervous system. Or do you mean psychological pain?

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

I have no clue where it may have developed in our evolutionary tree or where it could have developed in other branches.

I can show you information regarding when our nervous systems and emotional spectrum is said to have developed in evolution. Which do you desire?

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

We could build a robot that acts in all ways like a suffering human being when it endures mechanical stress, but it doesn't mean that it actually suffers.

If it had a developed and functional nervous system, it would. This is highly debatable, however.

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

That's the problem: any amount of similar behavior cannot be attributed to an amount of similar experience.

Not always, no. But, we can evaluate biological makeup and come to intelligent conclusions.

@MJA,

Quote:

any amount of similar behavior cannot be attributed to an amount of similar experience.

So then, other people who cry when I punch them, are not actually suffering.
And when I throw a stone at the irritating next door neighbors dog, who never stops barking, and I hit it, and it yelps and runs away, and stops barking for the rest of the day - it did not actually suffer. hmmmm. right.

A note to all vegetarians : AVOID SUGER and GLUTEN.
Eat brown rice, and maize products.
If you don't you'll end up having to eat meat again.

@Poseidon,

Poseidon wrote:

A note to all vegetarians : AVOID SUGER and GLUTEN.
Eat brown rice, and maize products.
If you don't you'll end up having to eat meat again.

Elaborate on what you mean here.

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