Vegetarianism is a Higher level View

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Joe
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:31 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Vegetarianism is only a higher level of view insomuch as it is based on the level of awareness one wishes to have on how animals are treated.


Whats wrong with that? If you able to survive w/out meat and you feel it is important, more power to you.

I'm worried that people like myself tend to resent vegetarians and such, because they claim a moral high ground. Why cant they? Is it because when someone says this they are putting you down for not following their stance? I hope people look past that resentment into something that has more substance. Comparing morality is interesting but hardly ground to walk on.

peace
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:37 pm
@Joe,
Well, even if vegetarianism is morally superior to carnivorous activity, I'd argue that being judgmental and snooty towards others for not being vegetarians is morally questionable.

Same with Christians who stick their nose up at others, convinced that because they uttered some magic words they are "saved", and have the audacity to tell others that unless you utter those magic words, your eternity will be spent in Hell. I'm a Christian, but those cats have some serious issues.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 16 Feb, 2009 11:47 pm
@Joe,
Joe wrote:
Is it because when someone says this they are putting you down for not following their stance?


From my experience, this is generally why, yes.
 
Joe
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:08 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
Well, even if vegetarianism is morally superior to carnivorous activity, I'd argue that being judgmental and snooty towards others for not being vegetarians is morally questionable.

Same with Christians who stick their nose up at others, convinced that because they uttered some magic words they are "saved", and have the audacity to tell others that unless you utter those magic words, your eternity will be spent in Hell. I'm a Christian, but those cats have some serious issues.


I completely agree. I can understand reactions to "Whats wrong with you" and "You have no compassion". They are weak statements that solve nothing between two perceptions, But I try not to hold it against those people, or else I would stop learning from them. Whatever knowledge they may have.

peace
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:10 am
@Joe,
Joe wrote:
I completely agree. I can understand reactions to "Whats wrong with you" and "You have no compassion". They are weak statements that solve nothing between two perceptions, But I try not to hold it against those people, or else I would stop learning from them. Whatever knowledge they may have.

peace


Joe,

I wish everyone had this mindset.

Sincerely,

Vince
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:13 am
@Zetherin,
That's what I like about the Buddhist edge of vegetarianism: they are pretty clear that being condemnatory towards others for not being a vegetarian, or whatever else, is counterproductive and generally harmful.

I hope that we do not let the snotty side of vegetarianism, or of any other belief, cause us to write off the belief itself.
 
Joe
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:16 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Joe,

I wish everyone had this mindset.

Sincerely,

Vince


If they did, would McDonalds and Burger King be out of business? Laughing


peace
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:38 am
@Joe,
Joe wrote:
If they did, would McDonalds and Burger King be out of business? Laughing


peace


Perhaps the actual establishments (if you're vegetarian), but certainly not the capitalistic metaphor implied (I've implied! Wink). Humans: Money, Money, Money!
 
Ruthless Logic
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 12:53 am
@Joe,
The moral argument that "all" life is sacred is a fraudulently propound consideration. I submit that the moment our physical displacement (birth) impacts the Natural World, that it is IMPOSSIBLE to avoid the death of living organisms (micro to macro) based just on our individual existence, and the subsequent required movement and consumption within the realm of reality (natural world constraint). It would be an extremely foolish and self-serving accusation to define what animal-plant-fish-insect life is expendable and what life is insulated from consumption or destruction, while is some scenarios we do not even have access to a choice.




P.S. How do we reconcile the empirically measurable truth of our CANINE teeth, while espousing the detriments of meat-eating.
 
MMHAYES
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 01:05 am
@Zetherin,
I have also heard another argument in support of breeding and killing livestock for food.

In a small village community, some suppose that the ritual killing of a pig, for example, and its being shared amongst the villagers, actually decreases the violence in the community between humans. The act of violence carried out against the pig effectively vents their anger, in order that it wont be used against other people in the village.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 06:15 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
MFTP: how can we observe and measure suffering? I'm not sure that suffering can be measure in any objective way, however, observing suffering is easy.
For example: go hit your dog, hard. Tomorrow, raise your fist at the dog as though you are going to strike and see if the dog cowers. Well, no, do not strike your dog: but you get the point. We can witness these animals avoid suffering and abuse.


If I place a minute squeezing pressure on a worm, it will squirm and convulse like mad.

Is it suffering?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 08:37 am
@MJA,
Ruthless Logic wrote:
It would be an extremely foolish and self-serving accusation to define what animal-plant-fish-insect life is expendable and what life is insulated from consumption or destruction, while is some scenarios we do not even have access to a choice.
So, ethical boundaries are extremely foolish? Yes, our laws are self-serving, but do you feel we shouldn't have them as we can't objectively measure the value on "life" for all creatures?

Mr. Fight The Power wrote:
Is it suffering?
Again, no, it's wholly dependent on the development of the nervous system. As far as I know, worms don't *suffer* in the same manner we would if cut.
Ruthless Logic wrote:

P.S. How do we reconcile the empirically measurable truth of our CANINE teeth, while espousing the detriments of meat-eating.
As I mentioned in my initial post, we don't have canine teeth. We are anatomically omnivores; we don't have herbivore or carnivore specializations.
 
MJA
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 02:32 pm
@MMHAYES,
M.M.HAYES wrote:
"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite." - Leo Tolstoy.

I'm seriously thinking about vegetarianism for myself, as I hope to be an advocate of nonviolence in the future... and this would appear to contradict with any meat eating.

The great question is though, where IS the line drawn? If my blood is being sucked by a mosquito, must I let it be? What if ants were to get into my vegetables? In my opinion, if one becomes a vegetarian for ethical reasons, they must draw a line somewhere. And the tiniest insect suffers as much as the cow, the chicken, and the human being.


Thanks for everyone comments,

I draw a line with eyes. If an animal has eyes, then surely it sees. And if it sees then it thinks, and if it thinks then it knows, and if it knows then how could you kill it, gut it, skin it, pluck it, smoke it, boil it, baste it, bbq it, burn it, sauce it, season it, eat it, and make footballs and shoes out of the rest.

That line goes beyond eyes for me though, it is really a point of truth. A point of balance, of justice, equality, of freedom, not simply of all men, but more truly all things. That point is simply self-evedent, it is the Oneness of us all. That line or point of right, of good, the light, is the truth we've been searching for.
The truth that will set the lion free.

Try a vegetarian diet, it's the right healthy equitable true thing to do.

=
MJA
 
nameless
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 02:44 pm
@MJA,
It is no more than vanity to place humans above cows and carrots.
Its okay to kill a carrot but not a cow? What ignorant hypocracy!
To justify ones hypocrisy with erstwhile 'morality' is vanity.
A cow is as alive as is a carrot or turnip or the bacteria that you kill every moment or the ants that you tread upon.
If perceived 'consciousness' is the artificial distinction you wish to make, I have known humans apparently less conscious than the average carrot.
Ever read 'The Secret Life of Plants'?
Why the need to justify ones nature? Ego? Vanity?
Sheesh...
 
MJA
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 02:55 pm
@nameless,
Eating vegetables, fruit, and whole grains works wonderfully for me, and without a doubt for some of the animals I see.
It's a healthier Way to go, for us All.
Justify One's true nature you ask?
OK,


=
MJA
 
boagie
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 02:56 pm
@Ruthless Logic,
Hi Ruthless Logic!!Smile

In primary cultures they did make certain animals sacred, mainly because these animals were their main food source, in other words the life of a given animal species became the life of their people. With the plains indians it was the buffalo, on the west coast it was the salmon. Althrough there was some guilt involved in the killing of other animals, the inactment of a myth as ritual delt with this, in killing, the animal's soul was released to return to its spiritual home, it was thought then to return again for another visit another ritual--kind of a renewable resource. Sensitivity to killing and consumption seems to have had a very long history.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 02:57 pm
@MJA,
MJA wrote:
Eating vegetables, fruit, and whole grains works wonderfully for me, and without a doubt for some of the animals I see.
It's a healthier Way to go, for us All.

=
MJA


Wait, don't extrapolate your beliefs out to health now. As one that is versed in basic nutrition, I could easily rebut this statement and show how animal proteins, amongst many of the macronutrients you leave out of your diet, could provide great health [if not better than fruits and grain alone]
 
MJA
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:12 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Wait, don't extrapolate your beliefs out to health now. As one that is versed in basic nutrition, I could easily rebut this statement and show how animal proteins, amongst many of the macronutrients you leave out of your diet, could provide great health [if not better than fruits and grain alone]


Don't extrapolate the health benefits of the cows and chickens and fish I won't kill or eat? Their's that self-evident thing again. And as for me, a vegetarian diet again works wonderfully, I feel great and humane and equal and One!

=
MJA
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:13 pm
@MJA,
MJA wrote:
Don't extrapolate the health benefits of the cows and chickens and fish I won't kill or eat. Their's that self-evident thing again. And as for me, a vegetarian diet again works wonderfully, I feel great and humane and equal and One!

=
MJA


I never said a vegetarian diet is necessarily unhealthy. I'm speaking about your statement: "It's a healthier way to go". Nutritionally, no, this is not necessarily true. I just don't like to see misinformation spread because you're advocating your diet. Say it's good to do or whatever belief you have, but don't say it's necessarily nutritionally healthier; it really depends.
 
MJA
 
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2009 03:30 pm
@MJA,
And what really bothers me is the fear animals have of us. I think its because they know we hunt and kill them. Dove season??? Many people kill animals not for survival or nutrition but rather simply to kill. In fact hunting is considered a sport like baseball or football, only even though one team might get killed by another, they both still go home for dinner. We kill for the sport of it, imagine the mentality or more truly lack of mentality of that.

=
MJA

Oh Oh, I guess I got started!

PS: And for those not to mentally challenged, I suggest Christina Pirello's book 'This Crazy Vegan Life' she takes care of the many misconceptions of diet and health.
 
 

 
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