It's actually quite brilliant when you think about how he approaches the issue. Why not approach something so basic with the same type of ambition and greed as you would something for your success or accomplishment like a job or a something else like that.

Ironically, I would suppose those principles that Greene outlines in his books are mostly the same thing you will find in lighter, less severe books relating to love life and finding a mate... those books of course constructed in a much more politically correct tone. Because we are all aware that in order to stimulate your love life requires candles, soft jazz, dim lights, and a self help seminar for ten easy payments of $29.99

Oh... and for your information... its more of a cliff notes rather than a for dummies book! LOL! Just kidding! Its actually quite complex to read with subtle underlines and historical references that lend to certain parts of an overall message. Who wouldn't want to learn how Napoleon was able to get so many women or how Marylin Monroe developed her own particular type of sex appeal?

Chin up, Bona. I'm 21, most of the way to 22, and I haven't been able to get a girlfriend either. In fact, my relationships with girls I have a crush on tend to crash and burn...badly. Which, I assure you, is far worse than simply not having a girlfriend in the first place.

a) Still lost in references here. Greener, the Machiavelli of Love. Does the end justifies the means... in Love? VideCorSpoon, do I sense some cultural divergence here (again...)? Ambition? Winning? Getting there? Applied to Love?? Catcha off, confused as usual...

b) Not yet (hehe :bigsmile: ). Would in these matters the old maxim work: give up your desire and thou shalt be given? The very desire often keeping us away from what we want. Some really wise men around here? (Or women, for that matter ;-) )

c) Age. What do we still have on common? Bona and Hammer, stop weening, stop worrying. We were ALL there, we passed it all. Jezus, do you people ever see the News??

d) Masturbation is FUN ! Yihaa!!

I have read some of it. It quite frankly freaked me out. The relationship you gain from this cannot be very healthy.

To gain someone's affection through calculation and scheming alone is fairly sociopathic. The Art of seduction is at best a bizarre erotomanic calculus, functional, perhaps, but it reduces relationships to a game of predator and prey, there is no connection or trust.

Now as for Bon's problem:

You might want to stop this sort of behavior;


You need to realize that you will not succeed here. You have enlightened no one and only driven them further away. In fact, you arguements are not provable. Nothing is. Reality is not subject to proof. A closed system in reality is, but not reality as a whole. Every conviction you have is an unprovable one(except where a concensus in a closed system allows it to be proven e.g. we all agree that 1+1=2 and 1+1+1=3 and 5=2+3 so it follows that 5=1+1+1+1+1 this does not exist outside of mathematics and logic, and in fact, we cannot even have a complete sytem of proof in logic)

Know that your beliefs are simply that, beliefs. Do not try to force them on others, you will fail. At best you will simply get an empty agreement. If you get wholehearted agreement it is not because you have instilled belief in someone, but rather shown that someone's beliefs logically allow for your proposition.

You need to ask yourself this: Am I looking for another person who I connect with outside of shallow infatuation, or do I just want a quick flame? Personally, I have little to no desire for a quick flame; you might as well go down to the bunny ranch and buy one. If one happens, so be it, fine, if not, whatever. I'm open to anything, but all I really would go after is a woman that clicks with me, that shares some passions and interests, one who adds insight to my thoughts and desires. She doesn't even need to be that attractive.

Is this what you are looking for? You may not find it, but you will be very lucky if you do. Will a quick flame really do much for your pangs of lonelyness? I doubt it. I, however, am not you and you are not me, you have to know what you want before you can get it and no one else can help you there.

I think it should be noted that Greene is not actually serious about treating the act of seduction as his Art of Seduction. It is a style of prose he uses to engage the reader in reading a particularly long book. I wouldn't put too much thought into the literary license. It's like the Smithsonian magazines "Karma Sutra of Housework" where the Karma Sutra reference and the implication in the prose imply something sexual where the content is about domestic chores. Like I said, it's very complex when you get into it? you just have to read it on a differed level.

To Catchabula, is Greene the machivelli of love? No quite. No one can be the Machiavelli of anything except Machiavelli? who was the MacDaddy of the Medici. He don't take no lip from no body 'sep the mirror, cuz' the only person Machiavelli listens to is himself. LOL! Do the ends justify the means in love? Sure? why not? When people look at it through a bias lens like that they look at the whole process after-the-fact, which I think is B.S. Unfortunately, I don't prescribe to a romanticized version of romance (LOL!). Life doesn't work like that? well at least the level of life I want to live. When you are in that kind of situation, you don't sit there for the experience, you go out there for the purpose of finding a mate. Love really isn't luck? its work? and its dang hard work at that. Is masturbation fun? Not to sound sexist, but why that if you have a woman who could satisfy your needs (and you hers).

Also, I don't quite understand what you mean by cultural divergence? Also, I don't quite know what you mean by "again." Do you equate my nationality or my descendantcy with clich? notions of courtship viewed from a European perspective about Americans? Vide is very confused and would appreciate some elaboration on an implicative statement.

Zetetic , if The Art of Seduction freaked you out, I would have reservations about recommending The Joy of Sex, Kama Sutra, or Art of war by Sun Tzu. If you cannot think objectively about things like sex and war, there is something amiss. Again, the book is a play in prose? not really that serious.

But really think about what you said. If gaining someone's affection through calculation and scheming is fairly sociopathic, we could be guilty of practically everything we do as sociopathic. We advance in the workplace by planning ahead with performance and hard work to rise from our current level. Am I then a sociopath for wanting a promotion? When you go out to where ever it is that a person picks up another, you go out in a playing field that requires the player to have a plan (whether that be the marketability of a person personality (which I might add is a big part of Greene's book) and so on. Am I then a sociopath because I want to find a significant other by means of ambition, determination, and all that other cliche stuff? Planning (at least I would think) is the result of a prepared person, because a person that experiences a surprise and relies on luck (not to say that you do) is another way of saying they are unprepared.

But seriously, the book is not as bad as you judge it based off of my overview. It's actually 95% historical instances if anything else. Does it reduce relationships to predator and prey? Hardly? it again is the prose of the book. But take a squirrel and an acorn for example. Is the squirrel a predator to the prey, the acorn? Sure, you could interpret it like that. Is the squirrel sociopathic because it hunts the majestic nut on the grassy knoll? No? but that would make for one exciting Disney movie.

Hi. I'm a very bad sleeper and though it's 4 h 30 in the morning here I want to try making some answer. I'm getting a better idea of the book of Greene now and because I didn't actually went through it I may have missed some point. The book may have contained its own potential negation thanks to its irony, thanks to the noble art of relativating, inviting and stimulating us to "think about thinking", the thinking of the book as well as our own. And it has reached its goal! This kind of reading is great indeed, more inheriting from Erasmus' "Praise of Folly" than from any bloody serious dogmatic bible, take Lucretius or Thomas Aquinas. It is light treading with the heavy bag of culture on its back, the author prooving his superiority with an eye-wink. The paradox of this sort of books being that they are indeed "moral" by suggesting the denial of their own tentative viewpoint, leaving the "answer" open to the personal judgment and choices of the reader. This could be a genre typical of an age of Moral Uncertainty, showing the best part of it, inviting us to do our own investigarions while just handing us the material. It is the wonderful discovery of good old Socrates, saying: I don't know. Do you know? Be careful with what you think, there may be some truth in it or not, but let's find out together. Vid, can I compare this book to that of Elisabeth W?rtzel, that had a huge success a few years ago, describing the "bad side" of women, as seen by a woman (it was called "*****", if I remember well)? You see I'm a bad reader, connecting books with books; I should go to that uninhabited island with my Shakespeare. Perhaps one can be a reader and yet have a poor mind? But that's another question.

As to the cultural divergences I confess this was the result of my prejudices and even of my "xenophobia", as you (or somebody else) once put it here. It may be bad to take an ideology seriously that the americans themselves have largely transcended nowadays, also due to the climate of the age. You know, the bell-boy who can become a president, only needing determination and integrity or even purity to get him there. Hard work and a clear mind overcoming each hindrance, see the moral example of Edison or Lincoln. No problem to get what you want if you really want it, also if it's a wallet filled with dollars, or a D-cup, or the woman connected with it. The ideology of the hard worker, the tenacious winner, the licence-plates with "getajob" on them, creating at the same time the idea of the "looser", the "sucker", the "sicko". Creating bad social security and structural poverty, because everybody knows "you can can get there by yourself", only using determination and a good plan. The ideology of capitalism connected with the Art of Love? Nah, even americans will not do that ;-) . See what I meant? Well, I apologize. Will you say something gentle now?

As to masturbation I do it often. I like to say that because it goes against one of these awfully sticky (sic) stupid prejudices, saying that it is an incomplete form of sex, or that it is the "sin of lust" etc. Bonny may be a victim of that ideology, he scared me quite a bit with his sugar-sweet images of Jezus in the Really Important Thread. I'm beginning to suspect he's fighting "lust" himself as part of his own unfruitful Fight for the Truth. I must seem the devil for him now, or at least a poor sinner who has to be shown the Way to Jezus. I think sex is only a personal matter because it is rarely important to others; why would you bother anybody with your digestion or your present mood? Considering my wife is severely ill we had to develop our own mix of the sensual and the sexual. Penetration is out of the question, so what has been started must find an end somehow. Even americans will... etc. Booo, get lost! loool

Over 5 h 30. That's what you get with passions. Must be continued. Wishing you all a good night.

Huh? Do I see well that the title of a work of art has been ***ed here?? Flabbergasted again...

Addendum. Suddenly the word came to me: a satyre! How could I forget the famous words of my Idol: "It is so difficult not to write a satyre". Yes, nothing new under the Sun...



I must confess I never heard about Flava-flave or VH1 or whatever, but I suppose that's just a Big Hole in my education. It must be something like "Kapitein Zeppos" or "Johan en de Alverman", only infinitely more important on a world scale. If it wasn't so it would never be used as a cultural reference in an International Forum, wouldn't it? Yes, the old weener here again, he was grumpy about this before. Ok, let's fix the rules once and forever: speak american, think american, shut up about what's not american and be glad some americans are prepared to read your bad ingles and teach you some culture. Hey dude, go on like this, you got the powwa and the moolah; I'm just a crazy belgian, resistance is futile, I will be assimilated. I am doing my best you know, consuming endless series here like "Friends", "The Nanny", "The Bold and the Beautiful"... I promise I will change, just give it some time, ok? Thx. Now start the laughing-tape... hhhahhhaahhhahaaa! :thats-enough:

smile a bit, and start wearing colorful t-shirts.!
i always love a bit fat, smiling guys. be positive and stop thinking whether you are attractive or not, and you beter believe you are attractive instead of asking people. you can be what you wanted to be.
for ex. i am the most sexy girl in the world, for me. and nothing can change that..
and everyone has a very-beautiful side. for example i love my natural hair color
and i always wear clothes that shows it better. and i cover my belly(cuz i'm fat there) but show more my breasts.
theese are all for girls, i know. just try to understand them and get the messages that are given

Catchabula,

Well, long story short I enjoyed the Greene's book. I particularly agree with your statement that the book has its own particular dose of irony and "think about thinking" quality. It's a book with a different cover, and judging it based on that cover doesn't seem to be right given its full context.

On the topic of cultural divergences, I'm really not that phased by what Europeans have to say about Americans? and unfortunately not very interested either. They have their opinions, I have mine. Personally, I think Europeans probably think more on "being" American than Americans do, but that's just my own particular viewpoint. But seeing as it is an international forum, we are all entitled to those opinions I suppose.

In regards to the Flava-Flave reference, though it is an international forum, the example is applied to majority of people who may in some instances get the reference on this forum. There have been times when others have used unique national references, like Topo Gigio for example. But to tell the truth, I rather enjoyed learning about the other member's customs and cultural characters rather than find some modicum of fault with it and link it with a xenophobic perceptions I may have that could for all intensive purposes be wrong. But I am sorry you have such a biased view point of Americans. Again, not really that phased by it, but sorry none the less. I think it takes a great deal of effort to understand that each one of us has a relative culture that may not be exactly like the other yet we share an English language forum.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go put on my ten gallon cowboy hat, get in my pickup truck, and eat a dozen hamburgers?. because as we all know, Americans are really all cowboys, drive large trucks, and have severe weight problems. That's like saying the only worthwhile thing to come out of Belgium were waffles and chocolate (which I must thank Belgium for? they are quite delicious.) P.S. LOL! Just kidding!

Well, you know, when I read your answer I had it again: that good old liberating laugh, a really good laugh that had nothing to do with laughing tapes but with the dissolution of... well... the "negative" stuff in my mind. You know: all kinds of sorrow, professional as well as personal, my wife's MS and my own Parkinson, and the horror of Dendermond a few days ago... Sometimes -let's make that rather frequently- I'm not very objective or rational. although I do want to reach the detached serenity of the Noble Mind, calm as the deep blue waters of some Heavenly Lake in the Spring Sunshine of God's Smile (where the h*** did I get that??). There are so many lofty and detached minds here, Boddhisattva's giving up the bliss of Nirvana to stay among us humans and showing us the Path to Liberation. Ok, I suddenly realised there is no problem at all here: I am me and you are you, Europe is Europe and the States are the States. We are different and that's nice, that creates challenges and opportunities, thesis and antithesis. And we also have a lot in common, like the challenge of finding a girlfriend when you're twenty or the occasional horrifying bloody butchering. There's blood on the waffles now, and Belgium doesn't have to feel an inch better than any other part of the globe inhabited by men. Enough bandwidth spilled, back to the real problems.

Advice for attracting women:

1. Clean yourself.
2. Money helps.
3. Project yourself.

Advice to Forming a relationship:

1. Communicate Constantly and honestly.
2. Reflect.
3. Express your feelings whenever you can.

This list may seem shallow in describing male and female bonding, but its worked for me and has produced some of the best times in my life.

peace and love....... and lust:sly-dog:

LOL As a girl, these posts are very entertaining. It varies from girl to girl, but most of us like people who actually ask us how we're doing, guys who can hold an intelligent conversation.

Everything in moderation. It's very attractive if a guy can express himself and communicate, but if he does it too often, it becomes bothersome and annoying. Everything in moderation, my friend. In the end, it doesn't matter much on the outside if you're inside is good enough. Keep trying!

Hello Again,
All you really need to do my friend is listen to "nothing else matters" black album track 8 .....answer is there ...surprised you missed it:shocked:
Cheers
TTFN

Subjectifying yourself to others online already raises questions on a few number of topics. Having yourself assured/reassured about your own aesthetics is piontless. Just because someone says you look good doesn't mean the next guy will and if you truly believe that then it reflects a lot about your own opinion about yourself. Why should ANYONE's opinion matter to you?

it's hard to make generalizations about what women want and it changes with different age groups.

I've found that i'm simply unwilling to try to give them what they want, I feel that way about our culture in general (it's a rat maze without my best interests in mind) - so I don't have confidence and positive regard, and consequently not enough luck

but if your goal is to find dates and potential partners it's definately good for your odds to define the universal things that women want (especially in your target group)

by target group I mean mostly age and culture as well as their peer groups

here's a few generalizations that I believe in off the top of my head;

1. women tend to like men that their peers like
2. women tend to like men that make them feel comfortable and safe
3. they like them to be larger than them (especially taller)
4. they like them to appear and act confident in themselves
5. they like them to help them feel good about themselves
6. they like them to be positively responsive listeners
7. they like them to be regarded as successful by society
8. they like them to be good looking and healthy
9. they like them to be older and more experienced
10. they like them to be generous to them

there are some universal generalizations about what is considered good looking, the BBC has a section on the collected science on this so far

Well, smile more often, I'd say that. Other than that, I'd call you a very attractive guy. Your height and weight complement each other nicely from what I can tell, and your face is well formed. But don't worry, you probably aren't looking hard enough if you havent found a girlfriend yet.

I am closing this thread. This does not belong on a philosophy forum regardless of what sub-forum it is posted in.