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Caroline
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 08:38 am
@Bonaventurian,
In my experience most bullies are kids without Dads. They dont have a male role model to teach them respect and not to disrespect their mother when they're back chatting her.
 
Phredderikk
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 08:57 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;77920 wrote:
In my experience most bullies are kids without Dads. They dont have a male role model to teach them respect and not to disrespect their mother when they're back chatting her.


Not to throw a monkey wrench or anything...Very Happy... my dad was involved only as a weekly visiting dad these years... and I was the bullied kid... and I always held my mom in high love and respect... of course I know that you can never use too broad of a brush on any topic though... From what I've seen my 13 year old go through this past year, and my own experience as a kid, it's just a tough period of life. It's the period of initiation into society, and also a period where everyone is at some point in the process of puberty. In my case, as a male, the issues were mostly aggression based... while with my daughter, they were emotion based.

---------- Post added 07-17-2009 at 11:14 AM ----------

salima;77914 wrote:
"I wish there were a way to make kids respect each other, and just be nice... but kids are people too, and there will continue to be the bullies and the bullied. Is it any different in the adult world?".......................Phred

it seems different-maybe it is just easier to cope with. as children we are so much more vulnerable and have no experience. if a child has no family support not only emotionally but someone with the power of reason in their brain, then they are in a very difficult position.

maybe the bullies have a lot harder time as adults because then their tactics dont work any more-they cant get along in the world using the only methods they know, and it is they who suffer.

when people grow up i think entire countries and governments become bullies moreso than individuals do.


I think you hit on a good point... the bullies continue on, but the victim pool decreases because the 'bullied' kids have grown up and moved on. (though for them some effects may remain) As a kid that was bullied, I have grown now to accept that I will still meet people that will look down on me for whatever reason, and that is fine. I am not here to please them, and they are not here to please me. But I am lacking in assertiveness... My main focus now is teaching my kids to respect their classmates, even if they don't like everyone; and to be open with my wife and I about any problems so we can help them as best we can.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 10:42 am
@Phredderikk,
Phredderikk;77928 wrote:
Not to throw a monkey wrench or anything...Very Happy... my dad was involved only as a weekly visiting dad these years... and I was the bullied kid... and I always held my mom in high love and respect... of course I know that you can never use too broad of a brush on any topic though... From what I've seen my 13 year old go through this past year, and my own experience as a kid, it's just a tough period of life. It's the period of initiation into society, and also a period where everyone is at some point in the process of puberty. In my case, as a male, the issues were mostly aggression based... while with my daughter, they were emotion based.

Yes you're right you cant tar everyone with the same brush but im talking about kids who dont have a male role model at all as opposed to having one even if it is just for the weekends, as you still have a male setting an example on how to respect people. Of course there are exceptions and this is only from my experience. Most of the bullies i've encountered have been fatherless, that's all, just something i noticed.Smile Thanks.
 
salima
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 06:37 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;77959 wrote:
Yes you're right you cant tar everyone with the same brush but im talking about kids who dont have a male role model at all as opposed to having one even if it is just for the weekends, as you still have a male setting an example on how to respect people. Of course there are exceptions and this is only from my experience. Most of the bullies i've encountered have been fatherless, that's all, just something i noticed.Smile Thanks.


i think that's because there are an awful lot of fatherless kids out there today! or in the case of multiple marriages a kid has more than one father and which one is he going to model? i suspect fatherless kids can also be bullied, after all they have only the feminine side to relate to in the family unit so how can they not have problems trying to fit into the male segment of society to which they belong?

i dont understand the psychology of the bully though i did go through a phase of hitting back and i suspect it may be a different reaction to the same issues that those who are bullied also face. however, there is no counseling given to them and society tends to glorify aggression in usa.

i think the main reason for a person to be bullied is a lack of self esteem compounded by a lack of assertiveness, which would be an obvious secondary handicap. i dont see where a lack of self esteem can come from except the parents (or caretakers). i feel if the parents were not in their own life damaged by a lack of self esteem and were able to give the same foundation to their children that would end the problem...and a lot of other problems as well.

sounds so simple, but how to stop the snowball rolling downhill that has become as big as a boulder?
 
jgweed
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 08:56 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Perhaps it is just my age looking backwards to the good old days, but it seems that teenage bullying has increased dramatically the last ten years or so, and more and more manifests itself in physical violence by both girls and boys. Metal detectors in schools shows how extreme this violence has become.

Part of this phenomenon may be explained by the absence of BOTH parents from the daily home life, or by the absence of one or the other (and their supplanting by the gang), but there may be other factors contributing to this violence as well, not the least being the musical glorification of thuggism.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 01:35 am
@jgweed,
I've found it necessary to grow a thick skin to that sort of stuff. Most people don't really play into your life at all, so you can pretty much say anything to them and they can say anything to you. In the greater scheme it doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you should be rude to everyone, that is irrational, it might turn out that the person could have benefited you or become a good friend.

Really, a random stranger doesn't mean anything. There are 6 billion more like him. Might as well be an ant until you get to know him. Once again, this still doesn't mean its at all rational to act as though he is an ant. All in all though, he might as well be a figment of your imagination until he gets physical, in which case you might have a problem.

When a kid says something is gay, he is not making an allusion to homosexuality being inherently negative, useless or stupid, the word has an entirely separate meaning and intent behind it. The word is essentially a knee jerk reaction to disappointment. I can however understand how it might play into the psychology of someone who is going through the realization that he or she is homosexual, and why said person would be offended. It would be a much more isolated and confusing experience than what is typical. The continual use of the word would probably make them feel alienated and possibly threatened.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 05:53 am
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;78077 wrote:
I've found it necessary to grow a thick skin to that sort of stuff. Most people don't really play into your life at all, so you can pretty much say anything to them and they can say anything to you. In the greater scheme it doesn't matter. That doesn't mean you should be rude to everyone, that is irrational, it might turn out that the person could have benefited you or become a good friend.

Really, a random stranger doesn't mean anything. There are 6 billion more like him. Might as well be an ant until you get to know him. Once again, this still doesn't mean its at all rational to act as though he is an ant. All in all though, he might as well be a figment of your imagination until he gets physical, in which case you might have a problem.

When a kid says something is gay, he is not making an allusion to homosexuality being inherently negative, useless or stupid, the word has an entirely separate meaning and intent behind it. The word is essentially a knee jerk reaction to disappointment. I can however understand how it might play into the psychology of someone who is going through the realization that he or she is homosexual, and why said person would be offended. It would be a much more isolated and confusing experience than what is typical. The continual use of the word would probably make them feel alienated and possibly threatened.


i like your philosophy; you are fortunate to be so well-adjusted. can you explain why you turned out that way? i have noticed that putting a lot of meaning on the spoken word is less in generations after me than it was in my day. in some ways it is a really good thing-why should words cause people to commit suicide?
especially when you consider the source, as you said.

and i also understand the use of the word gay can be applied to a video game-a car-anything at all the speaker deems to be 'goofy' which does not mean homosexual. but i imagine this particular case, back in the earlier part of the thread, concerned a boy who had been harrassed for some time about being homosexual specifically.

jg-i dont think the instance of bullying has increased-but i think as you say the degree of violence has, and that may be due in part to drug use which is more prevalent now than it was in my youth. but what i do find is that now the ones who are bullied are beginning to get stronger-i think these kind of tactics have reached the limit, and no one can tolerate it any more without striking back. that is why so many high school shootings.

anybody remember the movie carrie? but i wonder...will that stop them at last? and if it does, will it mean that we are all turning into savages?
 
William
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 07:45 am
@Bonaventurian,
Great Thread Bo,

I think it has to do with isolation and disconnect and the extremes individuals go to to belong either aggressively or submissively. It has to to with "competition". Winners and losers which is the "arena" we have created. "Political Correctness" is a futile way to mask the problem and effort to control the arena as it manipulates language to create the illusion of "oneness", which doesn't exist in this arena and it is absolutely impossible to enforce. Which is exactly what political correctness is as tries to manipulate language is such a way that will force people to be "one" in an effort to control ingnoring our innate differences. Fat chance. Not going to happen. You can't force unity. Forcing it only causes "friction", creating heat (tempers) and general overall unrest. The powers that be "thrive" on the bully/victim paradigm as does this "society" we have created which is at the very core of this reality. Hmmmm?

The more "politically correct" we become, the more insidious the language, to the point that makes communication absured. Such as Bo illustrated in his OP. As far as the bully, hell hes the "victor". He is the epitome of what this society deems as a "WINNER". Getting the picture yet? Absurd, isn't it.

William
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 09:06 am
@William,
Zetetic11235;78077 wrote:

When a kid says something is gay, he is not making an allusion to homosexuality being inherently negative, useless or stupid, the word has an entirely separate meaning and intent behind it. The word is essentially a knee jerk reaction to disappointment.


Why do you think this?

The use of "gay" as a pejorative must have some source, and I doubt that "gay" became a demeaning term as derived from the possible definition of "happy".

"Gay", when used as a negative adjective, is an allusion to homosexuality being negative - you certainly do not hear open homosexuals use the term gay in a negative sense as you so often hear young heterosexuals use the term.

Zetetic11235;78077 wrote:
I can however understand how it might play into the psychology of someone who is going through the realization that he or she is homosexual, and why said person would be offended. It would be a much more isolated and confusing experience than what is typical. The continual use of the word would probably make them feel alienated and possibly threatened.


And I completely agree with you here. This is the crux of the matter.

These complaints against political correctness are juvenile. Essentially, it amounts to people whining about having to be considerate of other people's feelings. But other people do have feelings, and each person has a responsibility for their language. If your language hurts other people, instead of blaming the victim of your crass talk, take responsibility and censor yourself: be mindful of present company. It's simple manners.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 10:40 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;78118 wrote:
Why do you think this?

The use of "gay" as a pejorative must have some source, and I doubt that "gay" became a demeaning term as derived from the possible definition of "happy".
"Gay", when used as a negative adjective, is an allusion to homosexuality being negative - you certainly do not hear open homosexuals use the term gay in a negative sense as you so often hear young heterosexuals use the term.
And I completely agree with you here. This is the crux of the matter.
These complaints against political correctness are juvenile. Essentially, it amounts to people whining about having to be considerate of other people's feelings.But other people do have feelings, and each person has a responsibility for their language. If your language hurts other people, instead of blaming the victim of your crass talk, take responsibility and censor yourself: be mindful of present company. It's simple manners.


no, really! i know how my son and his friends used it, and they just used it to mean 'goofy'. but i guess that is because they think homosexuality is goofy, so it is the same issue really-demeaning someone.

yes,really-as for what is underlined in the quote above, that is the bottom line. why say something that you know is going to hurt someone?
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 10:58 am
@salima,
salima;73489 wrote:
i think there has to be something wrong in society where a person resorts to suicide over name-calling. or why is it a person can come to believe being laughed at is the worst thing that can happen to him? (my father believed that).
I think it has to do with the ancient instinct of keeping your reputation: In ancient times, being considered useless by the group meant you would be kicked out of it, since survival was hard and there was no room for useless people. Kicking out the useless is no longer needed but the instincts related to it remain.

Theages;73685 wrote:
People like Bonaventurian feel compelled to go on long-winded and half-baked tirades against "political correctness" because they don't have the courage to admit to themselves that their judgmental language is a symptom of their judgmental attitudes.
I dont think so, its really anoying that some people want you to say "visually impaired" rather than "blind", when blind is both shorter and a better description.

Phredderikk;77897 wrote:
I wish there were a way to make kids respect each other, and just be nice... but kids are people too, and there will continue to be the bullies and the bullied. Is it any different in the adult world?
Make then see other humans as comrades rather that potential enemies =)

salima;78035 wrote:
i dont understand the psychology of the bully though i did go through a phase of hitting back and i suspect it may be a different reaction to the same issues that those who are bullied also face. however, there is no counseling given to them and society tends to glorify aggression in usa.
Again, I think its an ancient instinct: the instinct of proving your worth before the group in order to attract the attention of the other sex and justify your family's share of the avaible resources.

Didymos Thomas;78118 wrote:
These complaints against political correctness are juvenile. Essentially, it amounts to people whining about having to be considerate of other people's feelings. But other people do have feelings, and each person has a responsibility for their language. If your language hurts other people, instead of blaming the victim of your crass talk, take responsibility and censor yourself: be mindful of present company. It's simple manners.
People do need to be resistant against harshy language though, and I believe political correctness is walking away from that, what is bad. And the reason is not because we need the right to offend, but because we will offend people wanting it or not, people misurestand each other. If we make an effort to not offend rather than an effort to not being offended, the consequences will be worse then a misurestanding happens.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 11:29 am
@manored,
I do not see how speaking in a kind and courteous manner causes more problems than speaking without any concern for those who hear the speech.

Sounds like a blame the victim situation - as if it is the hearer's fault for being offended at offensive speech. No, it is the speaker's fault for being so selfish as to refuse to express himself by polite means.

I am not trying to argue that we should never use offensive speech - what would Ginsberg's poetry be without offensive speech? My point, instead, is that we have to be considerate about the language we use - if we set out to offend, we should have a good reason to offend; we should not offend just because it suits our whim.

The use of "gay" as a pejorative is not useful when teenagers say "dude, you're so gay" or "this class is so gay", ect. In such a case, it's downright ignorant and offensive. Using offensive speech artfully requires some skill - you have to know how to make the delivery, mindful of context with a particular goal worthy of pursuit, like Carlin with his seven dirty words.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 12:37 pm
@salima,
salima;78097 wrote:
i like your philosophy; you are fortunate to be so well-adjusted. can you explain why you turned out that way?


I'm not totally well adjusted, I have my own issues; they simply happen to have very little to do with strangers. My attitude towards strangers is really that of the observer watching wild animals, you should be cautious, and if the bark at you, it only matters if they intend to bite.

I would say that I am pretty solid in the way of interpersonal matters, but I still have pangs of existential depression from time to time, since the reality is that they are not ants, and they could be behaving in a far more efficient and productive way. Guilty men still throw the first stone and all that noise. So on a large scale, I see the problems and it is indeed discouraging. I know that I am at times guilty of perpetuating said problems, but I also realize that to err is human.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 12:54 pm
@Zetetic11235,
I'm trying to figure out why some are so steamed about being courteous. Where's the harm in it? If Bill doesn't like the word "sidewalk" then fine - if you respect Bill just don't use it around him. If Sally's Gay and we have any respect for her, it seems to me we just wouldn't use that word to describe something perceived as stupid, awkward, broken or ridiculous.

How's that a large inconvenience? Is it offensive, somehow, to show a little consideration? Do you, who are indignant about insulting others, feel like your Liberty's been somehow infringed? Ready to ride off on your holy steed and hack off arms all in the name of "Freeeedom!" ?

Could anyone explain this to me? I'd really like to understand it because as is, this 'disgust' at being polite just isn't making any sense.

Thanks
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 01:04 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Frankly Khethil, I think it's mostly the indignation of people who aren't as free to spout bigotry without censure as they might have been in ages past.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 01:09 pm
@Dave Allen,
Frankly, the Orwellian take does not apply to this sort of thing. If the issue were that politicians often try shape the meaning of certain words or change the names of certain government initiatives to be coercive, I would agree, but that is not at all what we are talking about.
 
salima
 
Reply Sat 18 Jul, 2009 06:38 pm
@Bonaventurian,
in the news and in my personal experience, the majority of the people i hear shouting 'freedom of speech' as their warcry dont have anything to say. on the other side of the fence, often those who cry out against the speech of others are encouraged by hopes of going to court and claiming damages and not really hurt, even in their pride.

very rarely have i come across instances, though there are some, where freedom of speech entailed speaking up to stop injustice. that is something to support...the right to display and publicly broadcast an opinion without regard to hurting others is not.
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 09:55 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;78146 wrote:
I do not see how speaking in a kind and courteous manner causes more problems than speaking without any concern for those who hear the speech.

Sounds like a blame the victim situation - as if it is the hearer's fault for being offended at offensive speech. No, it is the speaker's fault for being so selfish as to refuse to express himself by polite means.
There is no problem in speaking in a kind and corteous manner, there is a problem into especting that others will do =)

Being offended brings more problems for yourself than it does for anyone else.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 19 Jul, 2009 10:40 am
@manored,
manored;78306 wrote:
There is no problem in speaking in a kind and corteous manner, there is a problem into especting that others will do =)

Being offended brings more problems for yourself than it does for anyone else.


i hear you and i agree. and i also realize that there is a fine line where whether you are offended or not you will realize that someone is deliberately insulting you or someone else. at what point does it become unacceptable behavior? this is a matter of ethics...

i prefer not to be offended also, but in society it can cause problems. if one is called names and chooses to ignore the insults, they are often considered by others to be accepting the accusations. so what is the appropriate reaction? should the victim keep saying 'no, i am not what you called me' quietly without getting angry and hope for the best? maybe the bullies will get tired of the game. maybe it isnt necessary to worry about any other action unless they cross the line between speaking and doing.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Mon 20 Jul, 2009 01:49 pm
@salima,
salima;78313 wrote:

i prefer not to be offended also, but in society it can cause problems. if one is called names and chooses to ignore the insults, they are often considered by others to be accepting the accusations. so what is the appropriate reaction? should the victim keep saying 'no, i am not what you called me' quietly without getting angry and hope for the best? maybe the bullies will get tired of the game. maybe it isnt necessary to worry about any other action unless they cross the line between speaking and doing.


The point is that the bullies are basically strangers and therefore have no meaning. So by extension, neither do their words. Besides, when it comes down to it, everyone else is to a large degree manifest from my own (your own) projection. The zombie thought experiment illustrates this pretty beautifully. Sentience is not something that can really be detected in any definite way.

What is the worst negative outcome of ignoring the accusation? What is the worst situation you could be in? It seems like the only time it is serious is if you are accused of a crime that you have not committed but this is not what we are really talking about. If some stranger thinks you to be anything but another stranger, he is not mentally balanced. If a colleague or friend or partner thinks you did something you didn't do,this is also a very different situation. If they won't listen then you resort to a higher up (if it is a colleague), you wait and try again )if it is a friend), you do the same if it is a partner, but sometimes it just has to end.

Manored makes a good point. To a large degree, the person is offended because they fail to realize that it is not really their problem, it is the problem of the person offending them. I don't know why this is, but it is. If some random guy thinks I'm gay and doesn't like it, or calls me gay to get a reaction out of me, he has some serious issues that I can't help him with.
 
 

 
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