The Afterlife

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

Krumple
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 08:18 pm
@alex717,
After life stuff is all pure speculation. Why does no one ever ask where they were before this life began? There is not a shred of evidence from anyone that they existed before this existence. So why not face the consistency? If you have no recollection of an existence before this one, why can you not conclude that there will not be an existence after this one? It is consistent with reality. No life before, there will be no life after. It is even more absurd to make the claim that you didn't exist prior to this existence but then you will exist for ever after this existence. If something has the property of coming into existence IT MUST also have the property of ceasing to exist. You can't have something that is made then permanent.

All this talk about soul and after life is just imagination to keep yourself from dealing with the reality that you will cease to exist some time in the future. Why is that so hard for people to accept?
 
prothero
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 11:38 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;145377 wrote:
After life stuff is all pure speculation. Why does no one ever ask where they were before this life began? There is not a shred of evidence from anyone that they existed before this existence......
All this talk about soul and after life is just imagination to keep yourself from dealing with the reality that you will cease to exist some time in the future. Why is that so hard for people to accept?
I agree, birth is the beginning of individual experience and death is the end of individual experience. and That's all folks!

The old make way for the new, from death comes new life, from destruction comes regeneration. Death and destruction are necessary parts of the process of creative advance. We are all made from the heavy elements generated in supernova explosions. (a resurrection of sorts?)
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 01:39 am
@prothero,
prothero;145443 wrote:
I agree, birth is the beginning of individual experience and death is the end of individual experience. and That's all folks!

The old make way for the new, from death comes new life, from destruction comes regeneration. Death and destruction are necessary parts of the process of creative advance. We are all made from the heavy elements generated in supernova explosions. (a resurrection of sorts?)


How can you make the above comments as if they are factual, in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 01:50 am
@prothero,
prothero;145443 wrote:
I agree, birth is the beginning of individual experience and death is the end of individual experience. and That's all folks!

The old make way for the new, from death comes new life, from destruction comes regeneration. Death and destruction are necessary parts of the process of creative advance. We are all made from the heavy elements generated in supernova explosions. (a resurrection of sorts?)


What about a concept were deceased Humanist build their heaven; agnost, atheist and believer is welcome, as long as they are Humanistic scolers with a pH of 5,5.
:detective:
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 03:11 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;145377 wrote:
After life stuff is all pure speculation. Why does no one ever ask where they were before this life began? There is not a shred of evidence from anyone that they existed before this existence. So why not face the consistency? If you have no recollection of an existence before this one, why can you not conclude that there will not be an existence after this one? It is consistent with reality. No life before, there will be no life after. It is even more absurd to make the claim that you didn't exist prior to this existence but then you will exist for ever after this existence. If something has the property of coming into existence IT MUST also have the property of ceasing to exist. You can't have something that is made then permanent.

All this talk about soul and after life is just imagination to keep yourself from dealing with the reality that you will cease to exist some time in the future. Why is that so hard for people to accept?
I'm not claiming I can prove an after life or that we have previous lives, that would be futile. I believe in the possibility by personal experience. My only comments where based on the idea , what would it be like? The argument against can be put in the manner of "what would you do with an infinite amount of time",I tried answering those types of questions. If you want to base it purely on proof of it, then I have no evidence, none a all. You cant dismiss it because you believe it to be just wishful thinking, that is just as futile.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:15 am
@xris,
xris;145490 wrote:
I'm not claiming I can prove an after life or that we have previous lives, that would be futile. I believe in the possibility by personal experience. My only comments where based on the idea , what would it be like? The argument against can be put in the manner of "what would you do with an infinite amount of time",I tried answering those types of questions. If you want to base it purely on proof of it, then I have no evidence, none a all. You cant dismiss it because you believe it to be just wishful thinking, that is just as futile.



Time and entropy do not flow in the afterlife, if they did those existing there would have to burn energy to exist. It is more like existing in a ever changing "NOW" Moment
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:39 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;145549 wrote:
Time and entropy do not flow in the afterlife, if they did those existing there would have to burn energy to exist. It is more like existing in a ever changing "NOW" Moment
If we had a moment to experience or a thousand years to examine, they would be as if they had never happened. Memories are timed experiences that do not express time only record its value.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:54 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;145465 wrote:
How can you make the above comments as if they are factual, in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not


It is known, it is just that most people are unwilling to accept the facts of the matter and believe what they want to believe regardless of any evidence. With most people, when the evidence points in a direction that they do not like, they ignore the evidence. So people believe all sorts of foolishness and nonsense about an afterlife.
 
Emil
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:37 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;145571 wrote:
It is known, it is just that most people are unwilling to accept the facts of the matter and believe what they want to believe regardless of any evidence. With most people, when the evidence points in a direction that they do not like, they ignore the evidence. So people believe all sorts of foolishness and nonsense about an afterlife.


The only evidence I can think of of an afterlife would be something like Stevenson's collected information about reincarnation.

Ian Stevenson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ian Stevenson - Reincarnation research

Also, for a good essay on afterlives and in particular immortality, see Keith Augustine's The Case Against Immortality.

The Case Against Immortality
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 08:56 am
@Emil,
Emil;145591 wrote:
The only evidence I can think of of an afterlife would be something like Stevenson's collected information about reincarnation.

Ian Stevenson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ian Stevenson - Reincarnation research

Also, for a good essay on afterlives and in particular immortality, see Keith Augustine's The Case Against Immortality.

The Case Against Immortality



Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I was responding to the claim, "in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not", which I think is false. The question of whether there is an afterlife or not is not difficult to answer, if one is not prejudiced about the matter. But most people do not want to believe certain things, and so they do not, no matter what the evidence suggests.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 09:20 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;145598 wrote:
Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I was responding to the claim, "in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not", which I think is false. The question of whether there is an afterlife or not is not difficult to answer, if one is not prejudiced about the matter. But most people do not want to believe certain things, and so they do not, no matter what the evidence suggests.
Depends what you call prejudice and if you consider yourself prejudiced.
 
Emil
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 11:19 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;145598 wrote:
Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I was responding to the claim, "in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not", which I think is false. The question of whether there is an afterlife or not is not difficult to answer, if one is not prejudiced about the matter. But most people do not want to believe certain things, and so they do not, no matter what the evidence suggests.


Yes I know. I was just expanding on the matter. I agree that we can and some people do know whether there is an afterlife or not, and the answer is of course "not".
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 11:38 am
@Emil,
Emil;145634 wrote:
Yes I know. I was just expanding on the matter. I agree that we can and some people do know whether there is an afterlife or not, and the answer is of course "not".
There is nothing more certain in life than certainty. Why of course not? Some people know, what a profound statement.
 
prothero
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 02:17 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;145465 wrote:
How can you make the above comments as if they are factual, in reality you just do not know if there is really an afterlife or not
I think if one is looking at the "facts" and applying "reason" to those facts, there is much more evidence against an "afterlife" than for it.
Certainly physical resurrection of the body would seem to violate the laws of nature. Persistance of "consciousness" seems unlikely once the "brain" has degenerated or been destroyed. We have lots of evidence that individual consciouness and mental abilities are dependent on the structural physical integrity of the brain (neurosurgical, brain injuries, strokes, Alzheimer's, mental illness, etc.).

Philosophy is after all rational speculation about matters which are uncertain after the "facts" and experience have been taken into account. The key elements being "reason", "facts" and "speculations". Do I know there is no afterlife with the certainty I know the earth is round? "no" but the universe is ordered and rational, and if there is a god he is rational agent and your reason is "in the image" and surely applying "reason" to religous questions is not inappropriate. IMHO there is no "afterlife" as traditionally conceived.

Having said that, I see little harm in the notion that after death you will be rejoined with lost loves and the departed and if that gives you comfort then perhaps we should agree with Churchill "it is a wicked thing to deprive men of their hope". There are many things seen and unseen. Reason and sense experience can tell us much but not everything about the world.
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 02:33 pm
@Emil,
Emil;145634 wrote:
Yes I know. I was just expanding on the matter. I agree that we can and some people do know whether there is an afterlife or not, and the answer is of course "not".
To me the opposite is obvious, it would be impossible for there to not be an afterlife. So, please, elaborate =)
 
Amperage
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 02:59 pm
@manored,
Depends on if you subscribe to the notion of a soul/spirit. I think in some ways free will(for those who subscribe to the notion) implies we have a soul/spirit. That being the case what is a soul? Is it energy? If so energy can never be destroyed. Is it something beyond the material world? If so, I see no reason to think ones soul would cease to exist anymore than a number can cease to exist or anything else which exists beyond the material. After all many people contend that "they" are not their bodies nor are "they" their minds.

Belief in God is another great reason to believe in the afterlife. If you can buy that God exists, well then how does He exist? As energy? An entity? Or something beyond the material? It would seem completely reasonable to me to conclude that if God can exist beyond the material then other things could as well.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:28 am
@Amperage,
Amperage;145768 wrote:
Depends on if you subscribe to the notion of a soul/spirit. I think in some ways free will(for those who subscribe to the notion) implies we have a soul/spirit. That being the case what is a soul? Is it energy? If so energy can never be destroyed. Is it something beyond the material world? If so, I see no reason to think ones soul would cease to exist anymore than a number can cease to exist or anything else which exists beyond the material. After all many people contend that "they" are not their bodies nor are "they" their minds.

Belief in God is another great reason to believe in the afterlife. If you can buy that God exists, well then how does He exist? As energy? An entity? Or something beyond the material? It would seem completely reasonable to me to conclude that if God can exist beyond the material then other things could as well.
I don't think a belief in god is necessary when believing in an after life. I don't believe god is knowable but by experience alone, I am forced to consider the existence of an after life. I envy others their certainties, it must be nice to be certain, if not a little smug.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:36 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;145549 wrote:
Time and entropy do not flow in the afterlife, if they did those existing there would have to burn energy to exist. It is more like existing in a ever changing "NOW" Moment


Such an existence can not exist. You can't have any actions within a timeless realm. It defies definition. To do anything, first you must have time.

If you existed in this realm you call an ever changing now moment it makes no sense without time existing. You can't have change in a timeless realm because time itself IS change. It is the difference between one moment and the next.

So what you propose here is a contradiction in terms. You can't have change without time. If you can then photographs should show moving people. They do not. A single photograph is the representation of a realm without time.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 04:22 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;146070 wrote:
Such an existence can not exist. You can't have any actions within a timeless realm. It defies definition. To do anything, first you must have time.

If you existed in this realm you call an ever changing now moment it makes no sense without time existing. You can't have change in a timeless realm because time itself IS change. It is the difference between one moment and the next.

So what you propose here is a contradiction in terms. You can't have change without time. If you can then photographs should show moving people. They do not. A single photograph is the representation of a realm without time.

Is that all, that stops you believing in the possibility, surely its more than just that? If it was just that simple.
 
Emil
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 05:08 am
@manored,
manored;145750 wrote:
To me the opposite is obvious, it would be impossible for there to not be an afterlife. So, please, elaborate =)


No thank you. I have no reason to believe discussion with you will be fruitful, and if I looked, I would probably have evidence of the opposite. But if you want to know the evidence, I suggest you read the article to which I linked to before, by K. Augustine. If you're more to older texts, you may want to read Hume's essay On The Immortality of the Soul.

Hume's "Essays on Suicide and Immortality" (Hume Archives)
 
 

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.04 seconds on 05/28/2024 at 10:25:11