Racism

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Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 12:45 pm
@OctoberMist,
It seems that what we really need is a cultural awakening, where people will reject the illusion that is money and the materialistic world, and begin to treat each other like siblings, rather than like another stone to step on in order to further their own path.

This type of awakening cannot be forced upon people, just like our laws will never force criminals to comply...is it possible? It seems that the illusion is gaining power and hold over our society every day. Do people really want to reject it? Will they be able to?

This is getting off-topic now, so I'll leave it to another discussion.
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 06:03 pm
@Pangloss,
Quote:

Cooperation sounds nice, but we know that in all cases of socialism (or any form of economy or political system), there is a clear distinction between the wealthy/"ruling class", and the poor, politically powerless class. And if you compare countries around the world, standards of living are better, and disparity between classes is lower, in those countries which tend to be more capitalist than socialist.



Okay, America, it's time to wake up and smell your northern border. I am going to challenge the above statements outright. Canada has more socialist programs than the U.S. And take it from someone who comes from the absolute bottom of Canada's social/economic ladder; being poor here isn't actually all that bad a thing. I would challenge anyone to show me that the standard of living for the jobless in America is better than it is in Canada.

Adopt some of the oh-so-evil social programs that Canada has and your poverty problems will lessen. I've heard quite a few Americans here say that poverty is the underlying cause of racial issues. Well now you know what you can do about it.

But you won't, and I'll tell you why; cause all the do-gooders here who pretend to care about racial issues will suddenly find themselves very apathetic to those same issues when someone suggests that their taxes should be raised a little to pay for social programs that will actually aleviate poverty. You all know the problem, and you all know the solution, but you won't do it. Instead you'll ignore this and continue "patriotically" in the belief that America is the greatest country in the world.

America's problem isn't racism or poverty. America's problem is you. Everyone of you who sees the solution put right in front of you and then absolutely refuses to do it.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 06:21 pm
@Solace,
Learn some basic economics; study the quality of living measurements in countries around the world, and compare these to the economic policies in place. The highest standards of living are in countries that are more capitalist than socialist. Obviously I would not advocate a totally free market, but the evidence is clear that a system which relies more on capitalism than on socialism is better for all.

Do you have any idea how many billions of dollars have been spent on welfare programs in America? Some economists analyzed the expense of HEW back when the US was at the height of its welfare program in the 60s-70s (yes solace, if you had some knowledge of US history, you would know that we tried welfare already)...the money spent could have been given outright to the lower class in order to bring the poorest up to middle class overnight. Instead, corruption and fraud were widespread; some criminals became millionaires collecting welfare for 20 people. HEW by its own admission in some years lost billions of dollars to waste and corruption.

I am all for helping the poor; creating government programs though is not the answer. Whenever a service is nationalized, it becomes incredibly inefficient, poorly run, and corrupt in short time. It is a drain for our tax dollars.

Anyway, this is going off-topic, so let's not hijack the thread.
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:00 pm
@Pangloss,
No it isn't going off-topic. It's been stated during the course of this thread that poverty is the underlying problem behind racial issues. And this about resolving poverty.

Why is it that the U.S. can't get a welfare system to work while other countries can? Corruption exists everywhere, so that's a poor excuse for failure. If Americans really wanted it to work, you'd make it work. And the same goes for universal healthcare for that matter. But the fact is that the lives of the poor are not valued enough by Americans for you people to bother to try to make these things work.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:14 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34881 wrote:

Why is it that the U.S. can't get a welfare system to work while other countries can? Corruption exists everywhere, so that's a poor excuse for failure. If Americans really wanted it to work, you'd make it work. And the same goes for universal healthcare for that matter. But the fact is that the lives of the poor are not valued enough by Americans for you people to bother to try to make these things work.


Easy for you to whine about US policy while you are sitting up there in Canada with, apparently, very little knowledge of economics or history.

Comparing Canada to the United States doesn't work; your population is about one tenth that of the United States, and your society is very homogeneous by comparison. Those extra 200 some million, very culturally diverse people make for some extra challenges.

Maybe Americans would be satisfied with a national healthcare system if, like Canada, we start prescribing medicinal pot to all of our citizens who complain of mild headaches or insomnia; peace would flow into all of our veins, and we would suddenly decide to adopt the enlightened policies of Canada....peace, harmony, etc. Laughing

Oh yea, but we tried it in the 60s/70s and it didn't work.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:19 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34851 wrote:
Okay, America, it's time to wake up and smell your northern border. I am going to challenge the above statements outright. Canada has more socialist programs than the U.S. And take it from someone who comes from the absolute bottom of Canada's social/economic ladder; being poor here isn't actually all that bad a thing. I would challenge anyone to show me that the standard of living for the jobless in America is better than it is in Canada.
The Inuit and other native groups in northern Canada are as poor and marginalized as anything in the United States; they have extraordinary substance problems, poverty, joblessness, and hopelessness. In fact they're famous in the public health literature for this.

Solace;34881 wrote:
Why is it that the U.S. can't get a welfare system to work while other countries can?
Our welfare system does work. Too well, in fact, that's one of its biggest criticisms.

Quote:
The fact is that the lives of the poor are not valued enough by Americans for you people to bother to try to make these things work.
You haven't the slightest conception of how America differs demographically and economically from anywhere else in the developed world, then. We have 1/3 of a billion people in our country -- your entire country has fewer people than California. We have more than 260 cities with a population greater than 100,000; Canada has 29. We have more than 50 cities with a metropolitan area greater than 1 million; Canada has 6. So Canada doesn't have a trifle of our urban poverty problem.

We have vast areas of rural poverty as well, especially in the Appalachian belt and among Native Americans in the southwest and great plains. Canada does NOT have a big problem with rural poverty, in fact there is barely anyone living in Canada's open areas. HALF of Canada's population lives in or near its 6 largest cities and the virtual entirety of the rest lives near other urban centers. So Canada doesn't have remotely the scale of urban poverty as the US. Canada doesn't have remotely the immigration problem that the US has either (both legal and illegal), which is a constant influx of people with mostly low education, low skills, and low facility with English.

Your public education program has fostered mega-universities like UofT of tremendous quality, but the system could never support the immense diversity of educational experiences available in the US -- which is why so many Canadians come here for college and graduate school. Your health system, which is better than those in England and in central Europe, has delays in access to care that are unheard of here, and morale among physicians in Canada is terrible.

So before you drown in sanctimony, keep in mind that Canada and the US could barely be more different in the social and demographic problems they face, and it's unlikely that Canada's solutions would work here.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:34 pm
@OctoberMist,
Being "poor" in either the United States or Canada, is still having a pretty good life, from a global perspective. There are very few people here who actually cannot feed, clothe, or shelter themselves if they want to; compare this to the rest of the world. The "lower class" here is still wealthy compared to the rest of the world, and knows little of true poverty (save for some who are at absolute rock bottom).
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:39 pm
@Pangloss,
That's the best you could come back with, a pot joke?

Canada is homogenous? Since when? We're so homogenous that we have two official languages, yet most of us only know one or the other. Canada is well known for our multi-ethnicity and multi-culturilism. Well known except to you, I see. And you accuse me of being ignorant...

Ten times the population, but still (until the recent stockmarket crash at least) a strong and thriving economy and the world's number one exporter of manufactured goods (just this year overtaken by China). Which means you were plenty of able to make these systems work if only you had wanted to. Other countries with a fraction of your population and a fraction of your economic power can do it, so why not America?

Like I said, it didn't work because you didn't want it to work. And you don't want it to work today. Cause God forbid you people ever actually help the poor.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:52 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34894 wrote:
Canada is homogenous? Since when?
Hmm, I've been to Edmonton, Winnipeg, Saskatoon, St. John (NB), and Halifax, and it was pretty rare to see a single non-white person in any of them. Yes, Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver are diverse. But Canada is more homogeneous than virtually any large country in Western Europe and far less diverse than the United States.

Quote:
We're so homogenous that we have two official languages, yet most of us only know one or the other. Canada is well known for our multi-ethnicity and multi-culturilism. Well known except to you, I see.
Dude, I've probably been to more of Canada than you have.

Quote:
you were plenty of able to make these systems work if only you had wanted to. Other countries with a fraction of your population and a fraction of your economic power can do it, so why not America?
Because they have a fraction of our population, and a huge heterogeneous population is not always amenable to single solutions.

Quote:
Like I said, it didn't work because you didn't want it to work.
Evidence please?

Quote:
Cause God forbid you people ever actually help the poor.
Then you don't know the people I know or work in my field.

Jesus, how condescending and judgemental can you be? Solve your own sh*t before smearing ours around.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:55 pm
@Solace,
Pangloss wrote:
It seems that what we really need is a cultural awakening, where people will reject the illusion that is money and the materialistic world, and begin to treat each other like siblings, rather than like another stone to step on in order to further their own path.


What would that awakening look like? The ideas you suggest are not new. Cultural shifts have centered on these idea. What we need is for individuals to pay attention, not a new cultural awakening.

Pangloss wrote:
This type of awakening cannot be forced upon people, just like our laws will never force criminals to comply...is it possible? It seems that the illusion is gaining power and hold over our society every day. Do people really want to reject it? Will they be able to?


If we keep this idea that corporations have our, the consumer's, interest at heart, then no we will never be able to reject power and money as the currencies of life. You may not agree that we are corporate slaves, but corporations clearly exert far more power than they should. Upon our lives. To deny that the modern corporate system controls more of our lives than any other modern system is, for Americans, insane. I can't speak for other nationalities.
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:59 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes,

Quote:

The Inuit and other native groups in northern Canada are as poor and marginalized as anything in the United States; they have extraordinary substance problems, poverty, joblessness, and hopelessness. In fact they're famous in the public health literature for this.



You are right about this situation, and it is one that Canada has not properly resolved. This issue accounts for a remarkably low percentage of overall Canadian unemployment though, since the Inuit account for a very low percentage of the population. I won't make any further excuses, however, because I agree, this is a problem that Canada needs to address and resolve.

The U.S. welfare system works too well? How exactly?

Quote:
Your public education program has fostered mega-universities like UT of tremendous quality, but the system could never support the immense diversity of educational experiences available in the US -- which is why so many Canadians come here for college and graduate school. Your health system, which is better than those in England and in central Europe, has delays in access to care that are unheard of here, and morale among physicians in Canada is terrible.


Of course we don't have the immense diversity of educational experiences available in the US, the US has ten times the population, and (again, until recently) a strong economy. With ten times as many people being able to pay for school you're bound to build ten times as many facilities. But a little more important than this is the condition of our public school systems. Since you brought education into this, how would you compare public education?

Yeah, waiting a long time for a necessary health procedure sure does suck ass. But if I'm poor and I can't afford the procedure at all in America, then I'm darn glad I live in Canada where at least I will get treated eventually. Better eventually than not at all.

As for the rest of the comparison between the two countries, all that looks like is you trying to excuse the US for not having social systems in place that could help the poor based on a comparison that you can't prove would actually have anything to do with the actual social systems.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 09:59 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34894 wrote:
That's the best you could come back with, a pot joke?


Yea...I didn't really take your statements seriously, because you obviously have very little knowledge of history and economics.

Quote:
Canada is homogenous? Since when? We're so homogenous that we have two official languages, yet most of us only know one or the other. Canada is well known for our multi-ethnicity and multi-culturilism. Well known except to you, I see. And you accuse me of being ignorant...


Compared to the united states, yes.

Quote:
Ten times the population, but still (until the recent stockmarket crash at least) a strong and thriving economy and the world's number one exporter of manufactured goods (just this year overtaken by China). Which means you were plenty of able to make these systems work if only you had wanted to. Other countries with a fraction of your population and a fraction of your economic power can do it, so why not America?


I don't know what exactly you are griping about...the United States has a higher per-capita GDP than Canada...our unemployment rate is slightly higher, but much of this still has to do with the huge difference in population size and demographics. When you talk about "making these systems work", which systems are you referring to? Canada and the US are pretty much on-par when it comes to the economic indicators. The one indicator though that doesn't make sense is that no one from the US wants to go up to Canada, and yet you guys are flocking down here in droves. :rolleyes:

Coming for our superior universities and hospitals, among other things...as for your health care...it may be free, but it sure isn't good.

Quote:
Like I said, it didn't work because you didn't want it to work. And you don't want it to work today. Cause God forbid you people ever actually help the poor.


Jealousy is a form of flattery...:bigsmile:
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:11 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:

Dude, I've probably been to more of Canada than you have.



Actually the post you're responding to was made in reply to Pangloss, but, since ya brought it up, if the list of cities you mentioned above completes how much of Canada you've been to then it doesn't even come close. But it's neither here nor there.

Quote:

Because they have a fraction of our population, and a huge heterogeneous population is not always amenable to single solutions.


Just so that we can put things into perspective, I wonder what percentage of Americans see themselves as Americans first, and whatever else second... Now let's ask the same question of Canadians.:sarcastic: There's not much that's homogenous about Canadians.

Quote:

Evidence please?


The fact that you haven't figured it out when other countries have is evidence enough for me.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:12 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34899 wrote:
The U.S. welfare system works too well? How exactly?
Because it's well known that people choose welfare over working, when the option for work is minimum wage jobs with no benefits. Bill Clinton's famous welfare reform bill was intended to force people out of welfare because of this very problem.

Quote:
But if I'm poor and I can't afford the procedure at all in America, then I'm darn glad I live in Canada where at least I will get treated eventually. Better eventually than not at all.
For god sakes, I'm a doctor and I work primarily with the poor. You have NO idea what you're talking about here. None. An inpatient in the United States, even an illegal immigrant, has NO delay at all irrespective of ability to pay. For outpatient procedures there are often delays because most subspecialists cohort days in which they take underinsured patients, so the patients have delays in elective procedures. But I've had homeless patients get bypass surgeries, organ transplants, complex orthopedic surgeries, complex diagnostics, etc.

That's part of the reason our system is in such financial trouble -- because we provide levels of free care that are breaking our back.

Quote:
As for the rest of the comparison between the two countries, all that looks like is you trying to excuse the US for not having social systems in place that could help the poor
I'm not making an excuse for the United States. I'm saying that YOUR solutions are not likely the ones that will work for OUR problems, and OUR problems dwarf yours in complexity and scale. And since I am PERSONALLY involved with impoverished people and in frequent contact with social agencies, I have a much better perspective on this than you.

And finally, I think your generalizations about us are grossly ignorant and needlessly pejorative.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:15 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34903 wrote:
if the list of cities you mentioned above completes how much of Canada you've been to then it doesn't even come close. But it's neither here nor there.
I've been to a lot more than that, many times, throughout my entire life. I've been to every province except for Yukon and NW Territories, I used to visit Toronto all the time (family there), I've travelled through the maritime provinces and I've traveled overland from Toronto all the way to Jasper. If it's less than you, it's certainly more than most other Canadians. Nothing wrong with that, most Americans haven't seen much of America.

Quote:
Just so that we can put things into perspective, I wonder what percentage of Americans see themselves as Americans first, and whatever else second... Now let's ask the same question of Canadians.:sarcastic: There's not much that's homogenous about Canadians.
How is someone's self-identity a measure of homogeneity?

Quote:
Americans are just too dumb to figure this **** out. I'll let you decide which.:whistling:
Post reported. Thanks for playing.
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:17 pm
@Aedes,
Quote:

And finally, I think your generalizations about us are grossly ignorant and needlessly pejorative.
That's probably true... but it doesn't mean I ain't right.

Quote:

Post reported. Thanks for playing.
Lol, wow Aedes, I figured of all people here you could be worldly enough to understand innuendo. But hey, I'll just go right on being the ignorant one.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:21 pm
@Aedes,
Solace;34909 wrote:
Lol, wow Aedes, I figured of all people here you could be worldly enough to understand innuendo. But hey, I'll just go right on being the ignorant one.
Ah, suddenly it's innuendo after your multi-post flight of anti-American venting? What's that saying about changing horses mid-stream?
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:24 pm
@OctoberMist,
You are making these ridiculous claims that the poor are somehow worse off in the United States than in Canada (with no evidence to support this), in order to bash the US. If you want to actually discuss something of substance, and stop referring to "you Americans" causing all these problems (implying that Aedes and myself, and other Americans on this board are personally responsible for some nonexistent mistreatment of poor people in America) then we could talk about policies that might actually help the poor (welfare was a failure). Until then, continue the anti-US bash-fest, it is quite hilarious that your jealousy inspires such violent passion!
 
Solace
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:30 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
Ah, suddenly it's innuendo after your multi-post flight of anti-American venting? What's that saying about changing horses mid-stream?


Nowhere in the other posts did I say that Americans are stupid. And I only said it in that post because the only reasons for a country not implementing beneficial social programs that other countries have successfully is either a) because they don't want to, or b) because they can't figure out how to (in other words: stupidity). I made it quite clear in everything else that I said concerning the subject at hand that my own personal feeling is that Americans don't want to. But hey, since I figured you were intelligent enough to figure out that innuendo, maybe I was wrong about the rest as well!
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2008 10:38 pm
@Solace,
Solace;34914 wrote:
Nowhere in the other posts did I say that Americans are stupid. And I only said it in that post because the only reasons for a country not implementing beneficial social programs that other countries have successfully is either a) because they don't want to, or b) because they can't figure out how to (in other words: stupidity). I made it quite clear in everything else that I said concerning the subject at hand that my own personal feeling is that Americans don't want to. But hey, since I figured you were intelligent enough to figure out that innuendo, maybe I was wrong about the rest as well!


To quote Milton Friedman, "one of the great mistakes is to judge principles and policies on their intent and not on their results".

Maybe we are intelligent to figure out that, while the intentions of welfare are good (help the poor) the results are terrible. Thus, a different policy is needed. Of course, you would only realize this if you had actually studied economics and political policy...if not, then you see "welfare for the poor!" and automatically (falsely) think it is such a great thing to implement, because it has been packaged in some way that appeals to people who do not look beneath the outer layer.
 
 

 
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