Why is the moon red during a lunar eclipse?

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Poseidon
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 04:35 pm
@Poseidon,
Doppler effect is from distant galaxies, not red stars. It is an experiment used to prove the expanding universe idea.

You say photos do not prove it, and then you yourself use photos ???

Your afterglow and forglow, still have the sun visible : thus not the same as an eclipse.

The diagram has the geometry which works in the inverse manner of a satelite dish.

Quote:

Concerning the light from red dwarfs, what would happen in six months when the Earth is in a different position in it's orbit? There should be a noticeable change in the apparent brightness of such light reaching the Moon.

The stars normally do not change, relative to the Earth's orbit. The red dwarfs will therefore not change either.

Quote:

... that doesn't make sense to me - why should the earth's shadow be green only when visible from the moon in its shadow? ... if the earth's shadow is green - it's green ...

Not so. The color of the sun itself changes because of perspective, as the 'blue sun phenomenon' quite clearly shows.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 04:55 pm
@Poseidon,
Quote:




During the 1860s and 1870s, pioneering stellar spectroscopist Father Angelo Secchi created the Secchi classes in order to classify observed spectra. By 1866, he had developed three classes of stellar spectra:[1][2][3]
  • Class I: white and blue stars with broad heavy hydrogen lines, such as Vega and Altair. This includes the modern class A and early class F. Class I, Orion subtype: a subtype of class I with narrow lines in place of wide bands, such as Rigel and γ Orionis. In modern terms, this corresponds to early B-type stars.
  • Class II: yellow stars-hydrogen less strong, but evident metallic lines, such as Arcturus and Capella. This includes the modern classes G and K as well as late class F.
  • Class III: orange to red stars with complex band spectra, such as Betelgeuse and Antares. This corresponds to the modern class M.
In 1868, he discovered carbon stars, which he put into a distinct group:[4]
  • Class IV: red stars with significant carbon bands and lines (carbon stars.)
In 1877, he added a fifth class:[5]
In the late 1890s, this classification began to be superseded by the Harvard classification, which is discussed in the remainder of this article.[6][7]


Also from wiki : Stellar classification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also see this link, this is a much more recent version of the spectral types of stars: Properties of Stars

Do searches along the theme of 'spectral types of stars'.
There are countless versions of the same theory, that stars actually all have unique colors.


What color, according to the theory that 'the sun is white', would the binary system of Albireo be?

Albireo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.poseidons.net/Albireo.jpg

Quote:
Star colors are usually subtle, ranging from a warm orange red to a hint of blue on white depending on the viewer's eyes. But put a star of one color next to one of another, and the eye seems to exaggerate both, delighting the follower of double-star astronomy. Waxing romantic, astronomers have called the pair topaz and sapphire.

from
Albireo


:whoa-dude:... :cool:
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 05:07 pm
@Poseidon,
from

Properties of Stars

http://www.poseidons.net/spectral%20stars.gif

http://www.poseidons.net/spectral2.gif
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 06:21 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
You say photos do not prove it, and then you yourself use photos ???


... to disprove someone's assertion that in all photos a shadow is the opposite color of the light source, of course!

Poseidon wrote:
Your afterglow and forglow, still have the sun visible


... nope - neither do ... that's all glow ... when the sun peeks out it's unmistakable:

http://www.paulhanke.com/sunrise.jpg

Poseidon wrote:
The diagram has the geometry which works in the inverse manner of a satelite dish.


... now imagine the same drawing but instead of selectively depicting directional angles that bounce off the moon toward earth, selectively depict directional angles that head straight for the center of the moon ... in such a drawing, all light heading for the moon is reflected right back to the light sources ... since the earth is not a light source, absolutely no light is reflected back toward it.

Now do this again and selectively depict directional angles that bounce off the moon away from the earth ... the fact of the matter is that there are innumerably more directional angles that you can draw that do not reflect the light toward earth than there are directional angles that do reflect the light toward the earth ... and that's simply because there is no concentration.

http://www.paulhanke.com/reflection.jpg

Poseidon wrote:
Not so. The color of the sun itself changes because of perspective, as the 'blue sun phenomenon' quite clearly shows.


... so then you're saying that we don't see green light reflecting here on earth but that people on the moon will see green light reflecting from the earth?
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 06:31 pm
@Poseidon,


... same web page, different quote:

Quote:
The Conventional color descriptions are traditional in astronomy, and represent colors relative to Vega, a star that is perceived as white under naked eye observational conditions, but which magnified appears as blue.


... relative to blue, white appears yellow ... so if you use blue as your standard for white, of course a white star will be classified as yellow Wink
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:15 am
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
Doppler effect is from distant galaxies, not red stars. It is an experiment used to prove the expanding universe idea.
The Doppler effect doesn't care where the light comes from.
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 12:25 am
@paulhanke,
paulhanke wrote:
Now do this again and selectively depict directional angles that bounce off the moon away from the earth ... the fact of the matter is that there are innumerably more directional angles that you can draw that do not reflect the light toward earth than there are directional angles that do reflect the light toward the earth ... and that's simply because there is no concentration.

http://www.paulhanke.com/reflection.jpg


Just like a convex mirror.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 07:00 pm
@Poseidon,
It would be impossible in any diagram to show ALL the light.
My diagram shows the majority of light, from the perspective of the Earth.

The opposite color in shadows, is not for all shadows. Its just a summary of a very simple experiment, very well documented. Which works in most cases.

http://www.poseidons.net/whyistheskyblue/Copy%20of%203302901_d0bbc2ff9e.jpg
Easy experiment to do at home (sans the bullet!)


http://www.poseidons.net/whyistheskyblue/244032gMOL_w.jpg

In the photo above, if I clipped only the left half of the photo, one would not see the green shadow.

http://www.poseidons.net/whyistheskyblue/whyistheskybluest.jpg

yellow shadow, opposite to blue light.


http://www.poseidons.net/whyistheskyblue/whyistheskyblue.jpg

showing the phenomenon for a range of colors.

It seems to me from further contemplation, that the Doppler effect is the cause of the moon's red glow. I defaulted initially to the red dwarfs, as it seemed to me certain that Rayleigh scattering was wrong for several reasons.

1) The sun is not white
2) Refraction does not split light into specific separate colours
3) The inverse color experiments do split light thus
4) The red of sunsets is not universal, and not visible from space DURING AN ECLIPSE.

from
expanding universe theory - definition of expanding universe theory by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Quote:
1. The cosmological theory holding that the universe is expanding, based on the interpretation of the color shift in the spectra of all the galaxies as being the result of the Doppler effect and indicating that all galaxies are moving away from one another.


As I think about it, the solar eclipse that I saw over a decade or so ago, was about a 90% eclipse. The part I am unsure of was the extent to which it was a partial/complete eclipse. That the sky went red, I am completely certain.

To conclude:
The moon is red during a lunar eclipse, because the universe is expanding.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 07:30 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
As I think about it, the solar eclipse that I saw over a decade or so ago, was about a 90% eclipse. The part I am unsure of was the extent to which it was a partial/complete eclipse. That the sky went red, I am completely certain.

To conclude:
The moon is red during a lunar eclipse, because the universe is expanding.


... to conclude, how interesting Wink

http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Wide-field-diC_800.jpg
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 08:37 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:

To conclude:
The moon is red during a lunar eclipse, because the universe is expanding.
What about special relativity? We are in uniform motion (more or less) to our Moon.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 10:22 pm
@Poseidon,
photo noted, Paul,
but the eclipse I saw was on a cloudy day.

Not that I can explain why, this should have made a difference.

John: The motion of the distant galaxies (red shift from doppler) is measured, typically, in terms of 'half the speed of light', whereas the Moon and the Earth's relative speed is minisicule in comparrison. So the effect of this would not be noticed.
 
John W Kelly
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 11:49 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
John: The motion of the distant galaxies (red shift from doppler) is measured, typically, in terms of 'half the speed of light', whereas the Moon and the Earth's relative speed is minisicule in comparrison. So the effect of this would not be noticed.
How could stars outside our galaxy (including red dwarfs) produce enough light to create a red Moon?
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 12:36 pm
@Poseidon,
Well, we're talking about zillions of galaxies worth of red light. If you see a candle at a distance during the day, you can hardly see it. In darkness it can be seen at quite a distance. There is no other light to overpower the redness.

These are solar eclipses on cloudy days.

Welcome to SkyChasers.net* Amateur photos of natural wonders in the sky and space beyond. Send us your photos
http://www.poseidons.net/Solar-eclips.jpg

http://benandalice.com/uploaded_images/eclipse3-798687.jpg
Ben and Alice: March 2006

As you can see from these photos, my memory serves me well. The cloudiness is quite distinct too. I remember being very dissapointed that the one chance I had to see the solar eclipse, had to happen on a cloudy day. But I looked anyway, hoping for a gap in the clouds, and it seems it was a blessing in disguise.

Now surely, considering these pictures, this would have nothing to do with the alleged sunset effect/rayleigh scattering?

Also note that the Doppler effect is well documented, and there is evidently enough red light from the distant galaxies for them to be seen as such.

In the absence of the sun's light, that red seems to shine through enough. Perhaps together with red dwarfs? I still think though, that the dwarfs probably only account for about 10% at most. Just a guess.

But the question which asked 'why is the sky not red during a solar eclipse?' was spot on. Without an eclipse, on a cloudy day, the sky is not blue, even from space. But it seems the red light is then strong enough to be observed when the Sun's light is even partially cut off by the moon, and the blue light is filtered out by the clouds.

We are talking about countless galaxies spewing red light at us, which has been doing so for billions of years, so its accumulated effect is still quite awesome. Some of that light must have left its original source at the dawn of the universe.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 12:38 pm
@Poseidon,
The cloudiness is quite distinct too.

Try and find photos with a blue sky on a cloudy day if you think the photos were manipulated by filter.

Do searches for something like 'cloudy day solar eclipse'
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Sat 18 Oct, 2008 09:59 pm
@Poseidon,


... I wonder what kind of solar filter they were using ... maybe this one? Solar Filters .. Eclipse Filters - Rainbow Symphony Inc.

Quote:
The system includes a red pre-filter ...
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:35 pm
@Poseidon,
Are you calling me a lier?
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 06:50 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
Are you calling me a lier?


... not at all ... I'm just pointing out that solar filters are typically used to get a subdued and clear an image of the sun ... and if someone happened to use this company's solar filter, then the clouds would appear red because their solar filter employs a red pre-filter ... without a solar filter, the mid-day sun looks like this:

http://www.paulhanke.com/images/sun-dance.jpg

... pretty much a big blob of white with no definition ... so again, in order to clearly see the outline/features of the sun, you need to use a solar filter ... it's too bad that the folks who took the photos you posted didn't identify the solar filters they used.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 07:35 pm
@Poseidon,
If they used a red filter, then the sun would also be red.
And I did see the sky go red on a cloudy day with a solar eclipse.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 08:09 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
Try and find photos with a blue sky on a cloudy day if you think the photos were manipulated by filter.


... here's some with both blue and red clouds, depending upon the filter that was used: Dec 14, 2001, Solar Eclipse Gallery ... here's an eclipse photographer talking about her experience (to include solar filters) over the years: Wendy Carlos Eclipse Page ...
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Sun 19 Oct, 2008 08:15 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
If they used a red filter, then the sun would also be red.


... here's a photo from that link I just sent - the photo is documented as:

Quote:
Bob Sandy used a Nikon digital camera with a 3X telephoto lens and a red filter to record this lovely image of the crescent Sun setting over Virginia.


http://science.nasa.gov/spaceweather/eclipses/images/14dec01/sandy1.jpg

... note that the sun does not appear red.

Poseidon wrote:
And I did see the sky go red on a cloudy day with a solar eclipse.


... I'm not suggesting you didn't ... I'm just suggesting that the photos you found online were taken through red-hued solar filters (and again, it's too bad that the folks taking the photos did not document which solar filter they used) ...
 
 

 
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