Aliens

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Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 02:17 am
let me know if im makin too much at once...
or if im missing threads that already have this stuff

but do you think life on other planets is possible

or if the universe was created for man on earth alone

do you think theyve come in contact with us

do you think crop circles are human pranks or extraterrestrial pranks Very Happy

do you think all UFO videos are weather balloons or top secret government tests and falsified edits

are WE extraterrestrials who came to earth long ago

whats your theories?
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 06:26 am
@sarathustrah,
sarathustrah,

I think there's life elsewhere in the universe - wherever there can be, there it is. When they dived to the bottom of the oceans expecting nothing but a desert, they found hot geysers creating the minimum conditions for life - and there is was, tiny little ecosystems evolved out of nothingness. So, where there can be life, there is life.

That so, I think intelligent life in the universe is probably quite rare, given the extraordinary concatonation of circumstance that propellled our own evolution: i.e. an unusually large moon that gives us seasons, tides and a tolerbale planetary environment, large gas gaints in the solar system that hoover up most of the stray asteriods, the extinction of the dinosaurs, ice-ages, opposable thumbs, forward facing eyes and voice box capable of forming complex sounds - then hitting on abstract modes of thought and moving beyond hunter-gatherer tribalism - to arrive at long last at intellectual intelligence.

That cannot be a common story - but given the size of the universe and the ubiquity of life where life is possible, it's inconcievable that we are alone. The question of whether it's possible to travel between the stars is one I've often pondered. It's not possible on the basis of our current knowledge of physics - but I hope it might be possible as our knowledge progresses. I think it's the rightful purpose of our existence to survive to find out - because if it is possible we will do it, and spread through the galaxy as we spread across the face of the earth.

If there are other intelligences out there in the universe, it seems likely they are like us - for all the reasons mentioned above: opposable thumbs, forward facing eyes, etc - they would have had to develop much the same mathematical and logical concepts, made the same scientific discoveries, and they would have to have survived much the same threats we now face.

If they did so, and found the means to overcome the obstacles to space travel presented by our current understanding of physics - it may be that they've been here, but they've hardly welcomed us with open arms. Maybe that's because it's right that we either evolve or die as our nature and actions dictate, inhabiting only those environments we should naturally inhabit. This suggests an ethics informed by science - exactly what we need to adopt to secure our own survival.

As for the rest, I don't know. I think most, maybe all of it is hoaxed. I've yet to see sufficiently compelling evidence to the contrary - but yes or no, I don't think it matters as much as living in such a way as to ourselves become just such space-faring intelligences, if at all possible.

iconoclast.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 01:59 pm
@iconoclast,
Show me a spacecraft, an alien carcass - anything. As yet, no one has provided a shred of hard evidence. I do not believe in Big Foot as there is no Big Foot carcass, not even some dung.

Aliens get a little more complicated because we can imagine them anywhere in this expansive universe. So, I do not flatly deny the possibility, but that something is possible does not make that something so.
 
Juvy
 
Reply Tue 9 Sep, 2008 07:17 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
There are aliens; i cannot belive were the only intelligent life in this universe.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 04:51 pm
@Juvy,
UFOS

Too many stories to just right off as a hoax.

However, the problem I have with the Alien spacecraft idea, is that why should they be from another planet? Why could intelligent life not live on the floor of our oceans?

Even more likely, is that living amongst us, is a super human intelligence, most likely related to us, nudging us in the right direction when we need it. They would not want to interfere with us too much, or else we would just ask them to do everything for us and not follow our natural path of progress.

It bothers me that these two ideas have little or no following, despite being much more probable.

CROP CIRCLES
I used to laugh this off, until the notion of biofuels became predominant. All that fuel just sitting around could attract a passing space traveller.

And some of those circles are just too perfectly constructed.

However, whereever there is something perculiar, there are going to be those who jump on the bandwagon. A good way to bring a few journalists into a remote countrside inn to boost the income.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 05:52 pm
@Poseidon,
Quote:
Too many stories to just right off as a hoax.


But hoax is not the only explanation. Hoaxes obviously account for many supposed UFO sightings. But there are other, psychological and physiological aspects to consider as well.

Quote:
However, the problem I have with the Alien spacecraft idea, is that why should they be from another planet? Why could intelligent life not live on the floor of our oceans?


Suggesting that the UFO originate from our ocean floors is even more unlikely than extraterrestrial visitors. Where on the ocean floor? Why do we not have even the slightest shred of evidence for such life? and if we do not have any physical evidence of a physical thing, why should we entertain the notion of that physical thing's existence?

Quote:

Even more likely, is that living amongst us, is a super human intelligence, most likely related to us, nudging us in the right direction when we need it. They would not want to interfere with us too much, or else we would just ask them to do everything for us and not follow our natural path of progress.


Well, either these beings are not super intelligent, or the interference clause allows them to be imagined as real without any evidence of them being real.

The crop circle argument doesn't make much sense, either. Can we safely assume that all strange events on earth are the work of aliens? Even if we cannot account for crop circles, as that is debatable, our perplexity is not evidence for alien life.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 06:09 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
What psychological, or other reasons can explain the evidence (not concrete) of so many UFO sightings?

Did you see the Larry King interview with Neil Armstrong claiming that he saw a UFO on the way to the moon??

I'm not sure what to make of that!!!
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Wed 10 Sep, 2008 06:34 pm
@sarathustrah,
sarathustrah wrote:

but do you think life on other planets is possible

or if the universe was created for man on earth alone


Why are these the only two available options?
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:25 am
@de Silentio,
Poseidon,

I have to agree with Didymos - though for different reasons, that the statement:

Quote:
Too many stories to just right off as a hoax.


...doesn't hold water.

Alligators in the Sewers!

...or any other urban myth.

Widely believed - utterly false.

iconoclast.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:46 am
@iconoclast,
Yea,

From what I've seen, I seriously doubt we've been 'visited'. But I'll readily admit its possibility.

From what I believe, its hard to imagine in that in the vastness of the cosmos (even from what small knowledge we *do* have) we're completely alone.

But wouldn't it be nice to be openly visited (in a positive way) by intelligent species? Wow, what a vast change-of mindset, expansion of philosophy this could spark.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 01:37 pm
@Khethil,
Quote:
What psychological, or other reasons can explain the evidence (not concrete) of so many UFO sightings?


All sorts of reasons. You might have someone who is lonely, who feels insignificant, who has convinced themselves that they have undergone alien encounters as a way to feel more significant in the world. Some people are crazy. Some are just impressionable; it's interesting to note that in supposed alien encounters, the descriptions of the aliens follow popular portrayals of aliens in movies and television.

A UFO sighting - an object that appears to be in the sky which cannot be identified by the observer. How do we go from strange lights to the conclusion that those strange lights are aliens zipping through our atomosphere? We shouldn't, there is no justification for this leap.

Quote:
Did you see the Larry King interview with Neil Armstrong claiming that he saw a UFO on the way to the moon??

I'm not sure what to make of that!!!


Many pilots and astronauts claim to have seen such things. We have to remember that these people are working under extreme physical circumstances. Hallucinations, delusions, and just sheer excitement work on the mind in strange ways.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 03:28 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Quote:
All sorts of reasons. You might have someone who is lonely, who feels insignificant, who has convinced themselves that they have undergone alien encounters as a way to feel more significant in the world. Some people are crazy. Some are just impressionable; it's interesting to note that in supposed alien encounters, the descriptions of the aliens follow popular portrayals of aliens in movies and television.


You describe a reasonable set of conclusions, and I agree with most of this;

However, why are these crazy people not AS FREQUENTLY claiming to see bigfoot, sea monsters, fairies, or unicorns? Surely a deranged mind would see all sorts of perculiar things, as they are, by definition, unable to judge reality from fantasy. Its the consistancy of the stories that I find interesting; its just not diverse enough to be written off as just 'crazy'.

Why are they ALL claiming that the visitors are from outer space, and not the bottom of the oceans, for example? Or the South Pole?

{I certainly have never encountered an alien, (at least not knowingly). Although some people you meet on the www are a bit suspect *L*}


Assume (for arguments sake) that Aliens have visited a few people.

It stands to reason that if they did, there would be the standard number of band-wagon jumpers who just repeated the story for attention and out of lonliness, like you say.

So even if most people are just seeking attention (which they probably are), it would be an error to conclude that they all were such. It would also stand to reason that there would be consistancy in the repeated fabricated stories, and fantasy movies would be made with consistant themes : for example bald head, slanty eyes, and big brains.

http://www.poseidons.net/light/alienblink.GIF

But how does the sceptic know who is a band-wagon jumper, and who is authentic?

Well the method is the same for deciding who is rational, and who is dogmatic.

The rational person will always be able to take the other side of the argument (suspend belief) and is always ready to question their own beliefs and even perceptions. After all, it is very easy to simply have a series of vivid dreams where one is visited by aliens, to the extent that one starts to question which is the dream and which is reality. Nobody is immune to odd dreams!

The rational mind is always in a state of doubt, a true Cartesion sceptic, not ever trusting one's own senses completely. The person who insists "I am right, you are wrong", is nearly always wrong.

However, this should not be taken in the wrong way. Reality itself, is not sceptic. IE; Either Aliens have visited or they have not. Sceptisism is a method for arriving at absolute truth. (ironically). It is not a licence to decide that all opions are equally valid; just that one must always allow the other option room to be refuted, and not judged prematurely (prejudice). Not an easy balance to maintain, as it is a paradox.
..................................................................
 
sarathustrah
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:36 pm
@Poseidon,
great posts!

im one of the ones who doesnt deny possibility at all... and with how big the universe is, life could have been created or evolved, or created to evolve... elsewhere... and if it was done before us... they could be more advanced than us... and if i were an alien, i wouldnt wanna land here either... just like... if you had some super human power... in the end i bet you wouldnt reveal it, cause you know youd get locked up in some government lab and experimented on for the rest of your life Razz
 
astrotheological
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:58 pm
@sarathustrah,
sarathustrah wrote:
let me know if im makin too much at once...
or if im missing threads that already have this stuff

but do you think life on other planets is possible

or if the universe was created for man on earth alone

do you think theyve come in contact with us

do you think crop circles are human pranks or extraterrestrial pranks Very Happy

do you think all UFO videos are weather balloons or top secret government tests and falsified edits

are WE extraterrestrials who came to earth long ago

whats your theories?



Well technically they've already discovered life on different planets such as mars and a moon called titan. Its just known as bacteria.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 05:59 pm
@sarathustrah,
I didn't just write them off as "crazy".

Quote:
Its the consistancy of the stories that I find interesting


What consistency? The only thing consistency is that some non-human species has amazing flying machines.

Quote:
Why are they ALL claiming that the visitors are from outer space, and not the bottom of the oceans, for example? Or the South Pole?


You brought up in this thread the idea that the "visitors" are from the bottom of the sea. Wasn't the first I've heard people discuss the possibility.

Quote:
Assume (for arguments sake) that Aliens have visited a few people.

It stands to reason that if they did, there would be the standard number of band-wagon jumpers who just repeated the story for attention and out of lonliness, like you say.

So even if most people are just seeking attention (which they probably are), it would be an error to conclude that they all were such.


If we start with the assumption that aliens have visited some people, then of course it would be silly to conclude that all suposed encounters are invention or delusion. I see no reason why to begin with that assumption.

Quote:
and fantasy movies would be made with consistant themes : for example bald head, slanty eyes, and big brains.


Except that, in reality, away from the assumption that aliens do visit earth, it seems that reported alien encounters follow what moves and television show them to be. The bald head, slanty eyes, big brain model is relatively modern.

Quote:
But how does the sceptic know who is a band-wagon jumper, and who is authentic?

Well the method is the same for deciding who is rational, and who is dogmatic.


Are we still working from the assumption that aliens visit earth?

Either way, the sort of rational person you describe is a fairy tale of a man. I'm not convinced that we can seperate humanity into rational and dogmatic camps. We are all both.

Quote:
and if i were an alien, i wouldnt wanna land here either...


Excellent point! Why would aliens want to come here? And them we have to ask about those who claim to have encountered aliens - why that person? The whole idea orbits around the individual, and again, no physical evidence for supposedly physical beings.
 
astrotheological
 
Reply Thu 11 Sep, 2008 06:04 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
How can we even know whether or not a creature is an alien or not. The stereotypical alien is of some form of a humanoid. What if we are aliens but we just didn't realize it. We could have started out as bacteria from an asteroid or comet that hit the earth millions of years ago and have ended up evolving into humans.
 
sarathustrah
 
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2008 12:38 am
@astrotheological,
astrotheological wrote:
Well technically they've already discovered life on different planets such as mars and a moon called titan. Its just known as bacteria.


i heard about this on national geographic or history channel or somethin... i thought we expected to find bacteria because of the presence of ice/water but so far havent... but are the closest and most likely places that we should check when we can... i thought we still havent been there or retrieved samples or anything to be able to look at anything of a microscopic level..

or maybe i seen an old special Razz
 
iconoclast
 
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2008 10:55 am
@sarathustrah,
astro,

I remember that story - fossilized bacteria found in martian rocks, but as a false call. Didn't it turn out to be a product of the micro-photography work, something about coating the sample with gold. I don't rememeber the exact deatails but I'm fairly sure there was significant ambiguity. Equally, I'm near certain we have no bacteria from Titan - Saturn's moon, as we've not been out that far and come back. If you know something we don't, please enlighten us.

iconoclast.
 
Grimlock
 
Reply Fri 12 Sep, 2008 11:12 am
@Khethil,
On this point, I guess I agree with HP Lovecraft.

Muhaha?
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 02:16 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
What consistency? The only thing consistency is that some non-human species has amazing flying machines.

The consistancy is that they come from space and not the bottom of the oceans, or just a more advanced race of humans living amongst us.

Quote:
You brought up in this thread the idea that the "visitors" are from the bottom of the sea. Wasn't the first I've heard people discuss the possibility.

But 99% of reports claim UFOS to be space aliens. IE 99% consistancy. (not 100)

Quote:
If we start with the assumption that aliens have visited some people, then of course it would be silly to conclude that all suposed encounters are invention or delusion. I see no reason why to begin with that assumption.

We assume the antithesis is correct to see if it fits the logic. If you cannot see the other perspective FOR THE SAKE OF THE ARGUMENT then you are just being dogmatic. My point is that people are not inventing stories about unicorns and dragons and cliaming THEM to be real. Why are only Alien stories being claimed to be real? (mostly so, not entirely so)

Quote:
Except that, in reality, away from the assumption that aliens do visit earth, it seems that reported alien encounters follow what moves and television show them to be. The bald head, slanty eyes, big brain model is relatively modern.

You miss the point entirely. The assumption is made to see if it holds water, logically speaking. Not for any other reason. Its an assumption, not a claim of fact.

And; the converse is also logically feasible. What is illogical about the movies following the stories, rather than the other way around? Aside from you simply not wanting to entertain the possibility at all. Thus you preclude the argument before it has begun.

Quote:
Are we still working from the assumption that aliens visit earth?

The assumption was made to see if it works; if you cannot assume the possibility at all, then you are not debating the point rationally, but dogmatically.

There is nothing illogical about aliens visiting earth.

And yes, there is no concrete evidence, but then again, there is no evidence to suggest they have not either ???

And there is some evidence (not concrete) of people from other planets. Read Erik Von Danikens 'Chariots of the Gods'.

The Bible also talks about the sons of God coming down from the 'heavens above' and taking the daughters of men for wives. (Genisis Chapter 6)

In fact, if you read the Bible as if it were a history of our interaction with aliens, you will get some very surprising results, when you get to revelations. But most likely you have no capacity to suspend your preordained point of view and entertain such possibilities, at all.

I raise these last two points to show how such stories are far from modern. I am not saying that such readings are necesarily correct.

But as you preclude the possibility of them being correct a priori, then only when a little green man taps you on the shoulder will you accept the possibility. Thus you preclude the possibility of being informed by reason, rather than hard evidence. And if so, then why are you even discussing it?
 
 

 
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