Cupofcoffees, I thanked you because in your few lines of post Beyond Good and Evil just made a lot more sense to me. I can't say I agree with your views, they scare me a little, as did Nietzsche's work, at least the parts of it I could understand (or had some semblance of understanding). It seems though there are many interpretations. Ok. Sorry to be off topic, but I just thought that was interesting.

VideCorSpoon, I don't have much more to say about women not wanting to change the system really. Just that women (and people in general I think) are quite reluctant to change things in general. Most people find it hard to change miniscule details in their lives let alone a mass change in social structures.

Didymos Thomas, I agree that there is a somewhat common female perspective on males, but I wouldn't say there is a 'Female Normative Framework'. Men are the ones making the decisions (for the most part) about social roles. How would you say this could be overcome?

I say gender inequality (or women wearing make-up) is a huge issue. It effects my daily life. I still experience discrimination (albeit subtle), I can never hope to make as much money as my husband (even though I am more educated than he is), If I decide to have children it would seriously reduce my appeal to many employers, not to mention the fact that if I want to raise my child myself I have to be out of the workforce for at least 5 years (and dependant on a man), seriously effecting my marketable skills. I could go on, but I don't want to sound like I'm whining. I can't say the above applies to every woman, but I think it applies to a large number. Yes, there are more understanding employers that believe in 'flex time' but I almost wonder if these kind of 'female friendly' rules in workplaces are there only to make a point to the powers that be, because I've seen in previous workplaces how they actually work. If a woman goes on mat leave early for example, or takes advantage of 'family days' she returns to a workplace that has talked behind her back while she was away, and has even reduced her chances of being promoted because she took advantage of these 'benefits'.

Hopefully I don't sound like I'm simply complaining, I just wanted to say that at least in North American society, these issues matter a lot to a large number of women.

Zentetic,

Too true that we have created a thread to discuss these issues. And by all means, the scientific slant of your thoughts bear some relevancy to the conversation of "women and makeup"... but this is in fact a general discussion forum and not a philosophy of science sub forum thread. In generalities, we must try to keep a relative perspective on the issue.

Heather,

That you don't have much more to say on women not wanting to change the system is fair enough. I think it would be interesting to get into the factors of why exactly some women don't want to change the system.

However, I don't believe that women are immune from creating a relative framework from that which men have created. But this is not to be mistaken as a framework equal to men. I think female frameworks are reactionary to the frameworks men create. But you are quite right about the extent and severity of the male framework. There is an interesting saying that goes, "a woman must try twice as hard to be considered half as good by a man in order to accomplish the exact same thing."

I meant literally:poke-eye:, I made a thread to discuss the points cupofcoffees made about sicence in the sub forum philosophy of science. Its called The Place and Value of Science.

Zentetic,

LOL! So there is! Sorry about that.

im a female... and i dont participate in the make up thing, actually i refuse to participate... and i dont understand it either beyond the whole "natural instinct to attract a mate in whatever way works"

i dont like make up... its gross... like... if all really attractive women in the world started praising men wearing that oily stuff body builders put on for pictures... would men want to start wearing it all the time? i dunno its so beyond my understanding...

like the concept of a water bra... luckily i dont need them... but ive had friends who do wear them... to make your chest look bigger... dont you think thats a bad idea? so you find a mate (and who wants a mate that bases there attraction on chest size anyways) but say you attract someone and they are all excited about your big boobs... then you get close... get intimate and the clothes come off.... HOW DISSAPOINTING! Theyre TINY!!!! what kind of logic is that....

and the unfair shaving thing... why do i gotta keep my legs and arm pits shavin when i find the hair gross on men too... why dont we all have to? or why do we even care where the hair on us grows?

I believe there are men who shave their bodies...probably more gay ones than straight, but its done. There is definitely a female side to this set of standards as well, there are women who want a fit, muscular, tan guys with highlights. There are men who like blondes and there are women who like black guys more than white ones, its all aesthetic choice.

I personally do not take to the super model look, I'd rather a girl look like a normal human being, not ugly, but not painted up and superficial. I don't think its good that people are presented with these absurd models to exemplify beauty, and I do not think beauty should be a concensus. Both internal and external beauty should be an individual thing, not a societal norm.

Sarathustrah,Zentetic,

Gay guys are not the only ones that do that kind of thing. Straight men do it too. Another interesting fact is that male makeup has become a very profitable business in Europe and the United States. But I have to say that you're mentioning of aesthetics choices are subject to preconceived male notions.

I've read through some of this but not all I admit.

I just want to say that I believe women are ten times as ambivalent as men. Seriously, you never know what their intentions are when you are certain.

When it comes to make up though, it is a proportion to their confidence, in my opinion.
But personally, I don't find woman attractive when loaded with make up. Perhaps a little but otherwise, no.

Edit: woman equals females. Just wanna make that clear.

I am curious as to what you mean by preconcieved male notions? Which of my assumptions are neccessarily male? These comments all are in reference to things which I have actually experienced, and I do not hold them to be the case in general, my aim was to hedge the generalizations in the above post because they seemed kinda innacurate.

Holiday,

One thing we have to be careful of is the notion that the other sex (in general terms) is more of this than the other. If we were to say that women were subject to a greater state of ambivalency than the male sex, we are already sliding down a particularly slippery slope. We open the grounds to generalizations and preconceived notions of the other sex. I just point out a problematic assertion.

That you say that women's makeup is in proportion to their confidence I find problematic. Do men wear makeup in proportion to their confidence? Not really. But because women and makeup have become a societal norm (because makeup is believed to be a venue to garner their confidence), it is also arguable that that very societal norm is part of a larger male normative framework. When I say male normative framework, I mean a structure of any kind, whether it be society, civilization, etc. that is influenced by the bias of the male sex but taken to be an equal state.


Zentetic,

I just gotta question these male tactics, too.

I mean, when women began wearing make-up, do you think it was because a man came up to a woman and offered her lipstick or....?

Make-up, specifically for women as a beauty enhancer, dates back to ancient Egypt. And when the industry in America really took off, it doesn't appear as though men were forcing women to develop beauty products.

History Synopsis
1920s - Suntans

In the 1920s make up began to be used again after many years of not being used. In addition the inter war years showed a great advance in the development of cosmetics. Elizabeth Arden developed cleansing and nourishing creams, tonics and lotions.

At the same time Helena Rubenstein was developing creams to protect the face from the sun. This was welcomed in an era when sun worshipping made fashionable by Coco Chanel, was becoming a craze. Later Rubenstein also began to manufacture face powders and lipsticks. Less makeup was worn in the 1920s than in the 1930s, as youth demanded naturalness and slimming to obtain the boyish silhouette advised in magazines.

--
I don't have a problem with make-up for artistic purposes, but I see it as a cash cow for modern day companies. Women buy it because they're made to think they need it, and not by men.

I always thought women wore make-up and perfume to drive men away.

Its all such yuck! Some perfumes are so horrid they make me wretch. And who would want to kiss something with the texture of a wax candle?

Yea, I've thought about that type of thing before as well. I guess it makes some women feel better about themselves in front of people, and it's not too much of an issue because most people will never see them naked. But when it comes to getting naked in front of someone that's seen a woman with some form of "temporary breast enhancement", there could be serious concerns about dissapointing. Maybe once most men have a woman naked, they find themselves incapable of complaining, or maybe even noticing, the deception regarding chest size.



The shaving thing really is unfair, and I've thought about that before, but I can't help it... I just don't think it's attractive when women have hairy pits, or general hairyness! I guess I've just been too conditioned by society.

I guess women should day the same thing when it comes to us guys shaving. I gotta say that I dont prefer women not shaving. Seems like the normal state of things to me.

that was a pretty good point of view and i totally understand!

Beauty is power, that's a fact I accept. Beautiful people have nicer lifes. Make-up and the right clothes make me more beautiful in the eyes of today's society. I love fashion, I am one of those crazy people who consider fashion to be art. But to be honest, women mostly dress up for their female friends. If I wear a really nice outfit I know that others will look at me and think "that girl knows how to dress, I'm impressed". And I like if a guy makes an effort to look good, so why shouldn't I?

Lily,

So, by way of endorsement you advocate that beautiful people should have nicer lives?..

Any one who is impressed* by dress sense is the proverbial peahen- surely!

(*I don't mean finding people attractive; i mean finding people impressive, like I find Will Self impressive.)

And, there are lots of things that would make me feel good which I don't do.

Dan.

I think women tend to dress up simply to impress other women. Honestly, most guys I know barely even notice the way different types of makeup look or if the woman has her nails done. Seriously, as long as your limbs aren't falling off while talking, most guys are satisfied. It's women that seem to be more critical of other women's appearance.

It's worth mentioning that thousands of animals are routinely mistreated and/or killed each year in experiments that test for toxicity and other potentially harmful elements in new beauty products. There's something peculiarly repulsive about a practice which routinely exploits other beings just so women can conform to conventional standards of beauty. We too often forget the price for our indulgences because it's not we who sustain the cost, but them.

No, it's just something I think is a fact, and accept. That's how things works. If you could do something to make you feel better, why don't you? It's either admireble or stupid..