"The mind never rests but must go on expecting and preparing for what is yet known and what is still concealed. Meanwhile, man cannot know what God is, even though he be ever so well of what God is not; and an intelligent person will reject that. As long as it has no reference point, the mind can only wait as matter waits for him. And matter can never find rest except in form; so, too, the mind can never find rest except in the essential truth which is locked up in it--the truth about everything. Essence alone satisfied and God keeps on withdrawing, farther and farther away, to arouse the mind's zeal and lure it to follow and finally grasp the true good that has no cause. Thus, contented with nothing, the mind clamors for the highest good of all."

How can we know God if we cannot know ourselves? How can we be a manifestation of God yet be separate from God?

I believe the human mind works in such a way as to produce the tendency for the concept and perhaps the sensation of God. Once we grasp the concept in ourselves it is natural for us to imagine it to its infinite proportion or ideal state. I think it is no coincidence that God is given supernatural humanistic attributes and values.

"At the beginning (of time) Meaning already was, and God had meaning with him, and God was Meaning." John 1:1

When a man finds no meaning in anything he has at the same time no feeling of God. Meaninglessness is a terrible illness. It has to be got over. It is the same as godlessness, because if you say there is no God you are saying that there is no meaning in things. But if you think there is Meaning, you believe in God. Meaning is God. You cannot say that you do not believe in God but believe that there is meaning in things. The two are the same, in that one cannot be without the other. God is meaning. If you dislike the word God, just say the word meaning instead. The word God just shuts some people's minds. The word Meaning cannot. It opens minds.
Meaning was before time began. It was before creation, for creation occurs in running time, in which birth and death exist. Birth and death belong to the passage of time. But meaning was before Time and creation in Time began. There is no way of describing existence in the higher dimensional world outside of time, save by the language of passing time - of past, present, and future. Meaning is - not was - before the beginning of creation in time. It does not belong to what is becoming and passing away but to what is above Time. if then, there is Meaning above our heads, what is our meaning by creation?

It is easy to experience that "meaning" is relatve for us. But what is the highest degree of meaning?

Hey Nick,
I agree that for some the word God brings a negative response, but that only indicates the value/meaning they ascribe to it. I understand the concept of "meaning is God" up to a point. When meaning is placed before creation and time, I find that imposible. Meaning is by it's definition a value, and values are subjective determinations held by people. so how could meaning preceed people?



The highest degree of meaning is whatever you say it is because values are totally subjective. Some might say thier relationship with the living God is the highest value and thats fine, but it means nothing to me. Some might say thier relationship with fellow man is paramount and thats what I would consider more meanngfull. If you say God is everything of value then that makes sense because God is good. Right?

Dharma



n.

1. Hinduism & Buddhism.
   1. The principle or law that orders the universe.
      
   2. Individual conduct in conformity with this principle.
      
   3. The essential function or nature of a thing.

(Proverbs 8:22-33)


Every great spiritual teaching speaks of itself in its own way as a mirror of cosmic reality. In the traditions of China the Tao is both the way to truth and the way things are. In Christianity the Word is both the teaching of Jesus Christ and the fundamental manifestation of God. In the Hindu tradition (including Buddhism) Dharma means both duty and the sustaining order of the universe. And in the Hebrew tradition Torah includes not only law in the sense of the teaching, but also law in the sense of the foundations of God's creation. A well-known passage in the book of Proverbs expresses this idea without ambiguity. Wisdom is speaking:[INDENT]The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water...[/INDENT]

[INDENT]When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth... when he gave the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment; when he appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by him...[/INDENT]

[INDENT]Now therefore harken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.[/INDENT]

[INDENT]Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.[/INDENT]

Some people have also held firm the belief that God is the conglomeration of our minds.
Perhaps subjectively speaking this would be appealing to atheists, and those who believe that god is a creation made from the desperate rulers of mankind to quell the masses.

I know it seems odd but I believe in Buddhism the highest degree of meaning is "dharma:"
I believe in Intelligent Design. This belief assumes the reality of objective dharma and objective wisdom being potentially experienced by a human being as something our subjective constructs of "meaning" are an indication of. If this is true, meaning was before creation as conscious potential. In this day and age of the condemnation of intelligent design, many would growl at this. Yet it seems like common sense to me.

No Nick, I do not think your beliefs are odd. I think I understand now what you meant by meaning; a universal wisdom or law that is some fundimental truth to all creation. I think it is beautifull, and comforting, but I think it is a nieve realism and an hypostization.

I think it is I that am odd because as much as I value the very concepts you speak of I do not believe they are real (outside of my mind). I can't proove that they aren't real so I could be wrong.

Nick-A, thank you for that wonderfull painting I'll probably use it as a screen saver. I notice it has a cross in it and I wonder if this indicates some predisposition on the part of the observer or if it just happened to be there.

I don't really think we want to discuss Darwin Vs inteligent design. I have already decided that inteligent design is not for me, so in that sense you are right about me being closed minded.

Do not assume that I have not seen the wonder of nature or appreciated beauty, religion, and art with an open mind. Nor should you think that I will infer God from creation. I see a reasonable argument that matter exists so it must have come from somewhere i.e. creator, but thats as close as I can get. I have studied and searched many years for God, and I ultimately found that god was just a concept in my head. If He is real to you then great; I'm happy for you, but I feel happy, complete, and free now, so I hope you can be happy for me to.

I do not assume that you have closed your mind to the possibility that God is an extension of your imagination. If you have though, and your faith rejects this thought, I still appreciate your views and this conversation.

Thanks.

"God could only create by hiding himself. Otherwise there would be nothing but himself."

"God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the Devil exists since we cannot prove it."
Quoted in H Eves Mathematical Circles Adieu (Boston 1977).

Think about this, "God is everything that I am." - for the sake of example.

How can we know God if we cannot know ourselves? How can we be a manifestation of God yet be separate from God?

If you believe you cannot know God, you are correct. If you believe you can know God, then you are also correct. Where does one start to look to know God?... in Creation? Church? An old warehouse? Ancient Ruins?... Where?