Age Restrictions for Sexual Relationships

Believing in something and believing something exists are two different things I think. Right? Many people have created their gods or forms of authority. Even those who despise the concept of a god create some other form of a god whether they admit it or not.

winter wrote:

Even those who despise the concept of a god create some other form of a god whether they admit it or not.

For instance, I worship Skittles.

do you? i'll send you some Laughing

Monger wrote:

winter wrote:
Even those who despise the concept of a god create some other form of a god whether they admit it or not.

For instance, I worship Skittles.

ROTFLMAO... Man that made my day.

My god is sweeter than your god

Quote:

Monger wrote:
winter wrote:
Even those who despise the concept of a god create some other form of a god whether they admit it or not.

For instance, I worship Skittles.

I am a devotee of Reese's peanut butter cups, which exist throughout time and space as a confectionery trinity. Reese's Pieces are the gastronomic equivalent of your tarty little Skittles deity. But wait, my deity comes in the form of Reese's mini cups, the blessed children of the Almighty 190-calorie Peanut Butter Cup, which is served up to devotees as a dual treat, symbolizing the masculine & feminine aspects of divinity. If you want proof that the Reese's PB Cup is the one true deity, just have a look at the wrapper on the newest collector edition-- The King himself is sponsoring a great blessing for Reese's elect:

http://www.hersheys.com/reeses/elvis/

sorry forgot to log in!!!!
im just trying to say that ANYONE can say they believ in god it doesnt make them a GOOD person i think thats proven by the so called group that caused all the unbelieveble abuse so many have gone through , im saying that the only way to prove youself is by your actions and love fairly simple but very effective .......... i personly am registered on the U.K as a jedi!!!!!!!!!!!!! strange but true!!!!!!!

Such a policy is only 'official'. It was not the original one, and it has been stated in the Family literature that such policies are stated to avoid legal retribution. It is very likely people take a blind eye to it, including cases of rape, and women are encouraged not to report things because they were at fault for being sexy or flirting.

Guest wrote:

i cant believe that there are idiots out there who actually join this cult (and yes i do mean cult) just proves the point that theres a fool born every minute in this world

"The family" is nothing more than a pedophile cult who distorts God's holy word to recruit other fools into joining so that they can take advantage of them and their situation.....Berg is a nutcase and a pedophile and will endure torment for the rest of eternity for his actions and those who follow him will endure the same punishment

I think you're generalizing WAY too much. Face it, not everyone in this cult is a fool. Many are opportunists. Free women, community, fetishes, what couldn't you want? It is very appealing, and really, not entirely unintelligent if satisfying such urges is someone's main calling in life. Hell, I could probably see myself being vulnerable to such delusions. Their propoganda is quite appealing. Had I been raised in this cult rather than in the less appealing other christians sects, I might never have become an atheist.

Calling it a 'pedophile cult' is inaccurate according to what I've read of it. It seems more oriented upon satisfying men's sexual urges, which includes adult women as much as children. The focus is very much on procreation I think, which is why they try to have so many kids with their women, even if it's by other men, so long as they are raised in their ways. I think it is also to make men submissive, oddly enough, through trying to make them envision themselves as women. This keeps the men who believe in the teachings submissive to those who do not, and do not engage in that pretend because they do not believe in the teachings and are simply taking advantage of them.

I really think it's wrong to use pedophilia as a reason to hate this church. It has many problems, and pedophilia really isn't always a problem. Sex is not always something harmful, even if you aren't very informed about it and can't give what is called 'informed consent' you can still consent to it, and still enjoy and benefit from it.

The reason we have consent laws is because we need people to protect themselves from sex. Informed people have the capacity to make educated choices about their sexual lives, and would know how to protect themselves from rape, be independant, and report rapes that do happen.

We do not allow consent with uninformed parties because, even though it is not something inherantly harmful: they are vulnerable to manipulation, may go along with something harmful to them, and it is very difficult to prosecute rape and abuse cases related to them because they may take too long to report it or not take account of enough facts to jail their abuser. Essentially, we sacrifice the ability to have uninformed consensual sex that is beneficial for the protection of those who have uninformed sex which is not beneficial or not consensual, because certain parties can't protect themselves from it.

Now personally, I don't think age is the best way to judge informedness for the ability to consent. Knowledge, and emotional maturity, these are things that come to people at different rates. Some youths acquire the necessary traits early, some in their mid-20s, some never at all. Age is simpler and cheaper, so it works for now, but I'd really like to see a slow changeover to methods like psychological analysis, testing, etc. to determine this in the future. Arguments like 'not physically ready' are not valid to anyone reasonable, because just think of midgets, and petting. All that is a factor is informedness and emotional maturity evaluated by beliefs.

The problems with the church go beyond this, because basically they have sex not for their own pleasure, but at the whims of their church elders and for their religion, sacrificing their own happiness to satisfy commandments. They are obligated to have children even if they may not truly desire it. It basically enforces things upon them that may not be appropriate, that is all.

Oddly enough, while I'm disgusted by the brainwashing, and I think this is all a cover for abuse, I find this interpretation of Christianity actually pretty interesting, and a lot of this guy's story like 'My First Sex' or whatever to be rather honest, truthful and touching. It's really very contradictory, how a guy can see some truths, while being deluded otherwise.

Tyciol, you're right in many ways. i agreed with a lot of your post above.

cont'd....

however, there are many people in this group who should be accountable for serious crimes.

I do believe there are many smart, good and sincere (sincerely delusioned) people in this group. my remaining parent being one of them. pedoph. is not the only thing wrong with this group however. however sincere some people are in it and how much good they want to do, they have destroyed many families and many more lives which is why you get generalized statements such as the one you are responding to. because some people are very angry who have been very hurt.

Pedophilia is not something inherantly wrong, I'm not quite sure why people see this. What is problematic is not a sexual attraction, but acting upon that attraction when it is not returned to you. Children are much less sexual than adults so far more frequently these attractions are not returned, and often people take advantage of the way we subjugate children's wills to adults to make them feel obligated to satisfy sexual whims.

The best cure for this is to stop telling kids stuff like "respect your elders" or "adults are smarter" or "adults know better" or "do as you're told". Kids need to stop being oppressed, and when they are, they'll simply not subjugate themselves to sexual pressure as often. They'll be more capable of defending themselves. A big problem is, parents are lazy and they crush their childrens wills and spirit. It makes getting them to do what you want easier. It also means you don't have to explain your reasons for doing things to them.

Doing this makes them weak individuals, it is traumatic and not good parenting, and makes them vulnerable to molestation and abusive relationships. Not just in their childhood, but throughout their entire lives unless something happens to make them change, and it's certainly not as a result of parenting.

Illegal sex is wrong and immoral, I've gone on about that lengthily. Sex with uninformed partners should be illegal, we do not give parties the right to give legal consent because we consider them unable to make informed choices. That doesn't mean sex is bad, or that wanting sex is bad, because informed parties CAN make good choices for the benefit of uninformed partners. The problem is, you can't make a law based on that because a lot of people won't, they will make selfish choices not for the benefit of uninformed partners.

So people with uiniformed persons' best interests in mind should respect the need for this law, and respect that a relationship would not be beneficial in an illegal context. They should wait until the person is judged capable of giving informed consent before pursuing sexual relationships.

That being said, judging the ability to give informed consent, like I said previously, should be judged on factors besides age, because we are judging mental attributes here, and people's competancy of mentality vary GREATLY.

tyciol i think that you possibly need to get some help, laws are sset for a reason until a child reaches the age of adult hood they are in NO postion to decide if the wish to have sex with an adult up until the age of roughly 17 there brains are still organising there thoughts emotions and sexuality and they CANNOT read peoples emotions (this is scientific fact) to say that pedophils are not wrong is sick and makes me wonder about you, children read this forum and easily influenced so please think before typing

Help eh? Tell me, if laws are set for a 'reason' then how come they are so inconsistant state by state, country by country?

'Roughly 17' WELL GEE YOU'RE RIGHT THEN.

This is not a scientific fact. A lot of people of any age can't gauge certain people's emotion. Ability varies. Difficulty varies based on the person.

Basically it's bad science that generalizes humans like a number can define us all when really we mature in a gradual process at slightly different rates. To put a number on that is arbitary. It'd make more sense to have a form of testing.

I would not support science that you don't even understand, people put too much trust in that. There is a bias in testing that outright rejects research contrary to that which reinforces the established norm policies. No one puts it forth due to this nonacceptance and risk to their reputations. It's written in the organization policies, it's no just conspiracy theory.

o.k then explain to me the reason we ALL go through puberty?? the reason for puberty is our bodies being ready for sexual relationships ie... periods , pelvis strecthing need i go on ?? and if sex with children really isnt that bad then try explaining to my freind whos 2 YR OLD DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY A RAPE PUSHED ON TO HER THAT DAMAGED HER INTERNALY SO BADLY SHE DIED YOU ARE SICK IN MY OPNION SEX WITH ANY CHILD IS WRONG and as for different states having different age limits thats america for you we have one set age for a reason. you carry on being happy in your sick mind and ill carry on telling my kids to be scared of sick twisted people. just ONE person who was abused tell me its o.k as long as the child consents??? also explain to me exactly how that child understands the concept of what they are consenting to???
I WOULD ALSO TRUST SCIENCE ANYDAY TO THE CRAP COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH

tyciol, another thing to keep in mind is that you don't really know who you are, what you want, or what is right until you have passed your teenage stage. Teenagers and even kids love most flattering attention and don't know or think much about consequences (not only pregnancies but also emotional trauma later on in life when they realize they were taken advantage of). i had my flirtations with adults with adults when i was younger becuase they made me feel pretty or whatever, but once i passed a certain stage i was so disgusted that adults would have made moves on me because i didn't know better but they did. being about 30 and having a child of my own, i feel like i would do anything to keep people with your sick and twisted ideas away from my kid. adults should just know better and if they are sick in their mind, keep it just in their mind, not acting on it. it's NOT natural in our modern society to think that a 15 year old girl looks good when you're 30 or so. i look at a 16 or 17 or even 21 year old as a kid who just doesn't really know better. but as adults, we should and behave as such. Mad

Anonymous wrote:

Piram wrote:
max wrote:

... I do not deal in hypothetical questions.

I know that you hate me and members of TFI

"I know that you hate me and members of TFI"?
That sounds rather hypothetical to me!!!
Rather self-contradictory and paranoid, too... :wink:

Your response is facile & does not merit further comment.

Love And Forgiveness

Max aka Guest

I am a X family member who lived through victor programs a 3 months of total silence restriction. However I still have cordial contact with my misguided parents as well as my younger siblings. As far as i can see the only abuse that is currently taking place is the poor educational system.

But I, and nor can you,say that total instututional abuse did not take place nor that it was the fault of rouge individuals in the Childen of God, it was wholesale. I just did a count and in the 19 years that i was in the Children of God i had 21 teacher or "shepherds" and out of those 17 were abusive. Not sexually to me (luckly I'm male) but physically and emotionally. I could regal you with stories, but of course you wouldn't believe me because your so wound up in your own little hippy world of peace and love that you continually block out of your mind what your own children and peers are saying. as for your comment about hating your group i wholehearted refute that. I do not hate anyone i just wish you would stop labeling everyone that has a grevence against the family as an apostates.

mrs reaper wrote:

o.k then explain to me the reason we ALL go through puberty?? the reason for puberty is our bodies being ready for sexual relationships ie... periods , pelvis strecthing need i go on ?? and if sex with children really isnt that bad then try explaining to my freind whos 2 YR OLD DAUGHTER WAS KILLED BY A RAPE PUSHED ON TO HER THAT DAMAGED HER INTERNALY SO BADLY SHE DIED YOU ARE SICK IN MY OPNION SEX WITH ANY CHILD IS WRONG and as for different states having different age limits thats america for you we have one set age for a reason. you carry on being happy in your sick mind and ill carry on telling my kids to be scared of sick twisted people. just ONE person who was abused tell me its o.k as long as the child consents??? also explain to me exactly how that child understands the concept of what they are consenting to???
I WOULD ALSO TRUST SCIENCE ANYDAY TO THE CRAP COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH

Yowza, I am sorry that this conversation has got you so mad, this has been a misunderstanding. The reason humans go through puberty is in many cases yes, to get you ready for procreation. Women's puberty is moreso oriented to this, men's is as well, but most of it is growth and strength to become protectors and guardians, and women also grow and become stronger too. It is all part of maturation.

Anything sexual that hurts people is bad, obviously what you're describing is bad. A problem here, is that even adults who have finished maturation/puberty and are fully sexually mature can still be hurt in similar ways with partners who are too large for them. For example, if you were a midget, or if your partner was Andre the giant, things like that. Maturation alone doesn't make it safe, nor would a lack of it make it unsafe, though it is definately a very good guideline.

I trust science very much, though you must understand that science must back itself to be trustworthy. One issue of misunderstanding here is that when you hear 'sex' you are thinking only of penetrative procreative-style intercourse, when I am thinking of the large plethora of activities classed as that under law, even including things as simple as kissing or hugging too closely, to things which don't involve the insertion of anything into anywhere.

Things are fine if people consent and it is in their best interest. Since determining best interest is hard, we rule that competant people (informed people, 'adult's) are capable of and willing to consent only to things in their best interests. A problem is that informedness and competance are being determined in a generalizing and discriminative fashion. Of course, there's really no fixing it for a long time, there's just no resources for it, but the least people could do is admit the tragedy and unfairness of it instead of defending it, in fear that if they admit something's imperfection it might be tossed aside and become anarchous. I think that's excessively paranoid.

Cookie wrote:

tyciol, another thing to keep in mind is that you don't really know who you are, what you want, or what is right until you have passed your teenage stage. Teenagers and even kids love most flattering attention and don't know or think much about consequences (not only pregnancies but also emotional trauma later on in life when they realize they were taken advantage of). i had my flirtations with adults with adults when i was younger becuase they made me feel pretty or whatever, but once i passed a certain stage i was so disgusted that adults would have made moves on me because i didn't know better but they did. being about 30 and having a child of my own, i feel like i would do anything to keep people with your sick and twisted ideas away from my kid. adults should just know better and if they are sick in their mind, keep it just in their mind, not acting on it. it's NOT natural in our modern society to think that a 15 year old girl looks good when you're 30 or so. i look at a 16 or 17 or even 21 year old as a kid who just doesn't really know better. but as adults, we should and behave as such.

I don't agree with you. No matter what age you are, you have some idea of who you are, what you want, and what is right. I don't like it when people say people don't just because of their age. It is prejudiced ageism, and is as bad as saying women don't know what they want, or blacks don't know what they want.

Does all of these things change over time? Yeah. Do we ever know them 100%? No, not even when we are adults. As we gain experience in life, not only do we change, but our intraspection and knowledge of our selves and our desires and how we think generally grows. The only time it would diminish is if we stepped off a path and got lost, or if our brains sickened with age or disease.

I think most teens would know about the consequence of pregnancy. For those who don't, yeah their consent should not be considered permission as it is illinformed. At the same time as it is criminal to do that, it also seems criminal for me for teens not to know that pregnancy results from sex. Criminal ignorance enforced by society or neglect.

As for knowing, but not caring? This is a problem adults also suffer with. I want to know why they're not also protected from their own idiocy. Why don't we just regulate procreation governmentally and be done with it?

You have changed, you have gone from liking attention from men, to looking back and hating it. I can think of many reasons people might become disgusted with something like this other than reacting to something legitimately wrong though.

I look at EVERYONE as kids who don't know better, until they prove me wrong. Personally, I think a lot of so-called 'adults' are still kids, and a lot of kids are damned mature and have it together. We should judge by the character of the individual, and not our presumptions about them based on how many wrinkles they've accumulated.

I don't think it's unnatural. If it exists, it is natural. Not everything natural is good though, so don't take my saying that is justification, I just want you to change your vocabulary. What you probably mean is that such attractions are not wholesome or healthy. This is something I can agree would be a possibility, though I am not exactly convinced of. Can you explain how they would be?

How does an adult behave, and why should a person behave adultlike simply because they've been alive a certain length? Shouldn't how we behave be voluntary, so long as it is reasonable and you pull your weight?

Re: Age Restrictions for Sexual Relationships

max wrote:

For those of you who are being misinformed by hostile apostates on this site I should like to make it known that the policy of TFI with respect to the above subject is as follows.
It is by necessity somewhat lengthy.
Regards & God Bless You All
Max
The Charter codifies limitations on age ranges of sexual interaction permitted to full-time Family disciples. As a fellowship active in over 100 countries, these limitations have been crafted bearing in mind the laws regulating sexual interaction in the majority of the countries around the world. These limitations are strictly enforced in the interest of the protection of Family minors. In countries where the legal age of consent is higher than the Family's Charter guidelines, the laws of the land must be adhered to (xx, 94).
Family young people assume full adulthood at 18, at which time they may engage in consensual sexual relations with members 18 and over. The Family's Charter permits 16- and 17-year-old members to engage in sexual interaction, if they so desire, but only with consenting partners ages 16 through 20.
Teenagers are educated as to the responsibility of engaging in sexual interaction, and those 16 and 17 years of age must have the permission of their parents or resident guardians to engage in any sexual relations. Teenagers aged 14 and 15 may date others aged 14 through 17, but only with parental permission; any sexual interaction is strictly limited to kissing and petting. No sexual interaction is permitted for those under the age of 14.
Members 18 years and older who have any sexual interaction with minors under 14 will be excommunicated from Family membership. It is an excommunicable offense for members 21 and over to engage in sexual contact or sexual relations with those under 18.

Protection of Minors
We are diametrically opposed to any form of abuse or exploitation of children whatsoever, and our membership is resolute in its agreement to abide by this position under penalty of excommunication from our fellowship.
In the United States, child abuse has been rated a national epidemic, with estimates ranging as high as one in six children having suffered sexual abuse.6 In April 1997, a survey in the Ukraine revealed that every fifth or sixth child of both sexes under 18 suffers from sexual harassment. In Japan, out of 350 women students surveyed, 68 percent had been sexually abused during childhood. In India, sex crimes have increased by 37 percent in the past five years.
These distressing statistics are no doubt repeated in many other countries. Children and adolescents are vulnerable and need special protection, a need that has been recognized by the Family. We have taken stringent measures to ensure that the minors in our communities are protected from any sort of abuse, whether physical, sexual, emotional, psychological, or otherwise. We are confident that the guidelines set down in The Charter for our communities in this regard afford our children a safe and protected environment.
Our strict policy disallowing sexual interaction between adults and underage minors was not always clearly stated in our literature. It was with great dismay that we came to realize that during a transitional stage of our movement, from 1978 until approximately 1985, there were cases when minors were subject to sexually inappropriate advances. In hindsight, we realize we should have anticipated potential problems arising from our liberal stance toward sexuality and established more stringent rules. This was corrected officially in 1986, when any contact between an adult and minor (any person under 21 years of age) was rendered an excommunicable offense. This was revised in March 2003 to 18 years of age.
The Family's success in protecting our children and ensuring their well-being has been documented by independent and court-appointed investigations in five different countries in the early 1990s of almost 700 children living in Family communities (approximately 17% of our children). After extensive physical, psychological, and educational testing, all of the children were found to be healthy with no sign of abuse. This speaks clearly to the enforcement of policies in place to safeguard children in Family communities.7

Obvious troll is obvious. Why do you people pay attention to a guy who is probably laughing at the "stir" he has caused. Please don't feed the trolls. Also, cocks. :wink:

tyciol wrote:

You have changed, you have gone from liking attention from men, to looking back and hating it. I can think of many reasons people might become disgusted with something like this other than reacting to something legitimately wrong though

TYCIOL,
woooo, you have me all wrong here. i have not gone from liking it to being disgusted. i am disgusted because i was taken advantage of. How could i have known that at the time, when these things were the only way we knew things to be? i never voluntarilly did anything with adults, nor did i like being forced to do things with them. what i was saying is that because i was rarely around people my own age, adults were the only people who could compliment me. when i talked about flirtation, i mean an innocent 5~12 or so year old's glee at being told my dress was really pretty -- not the "come sit on my lap" (to get them off) kind of flirtation. and you've got a perverted mind if you think i "knew what i wanted" like you said i did.

Monger wrote:

More than a Mo Letter or two:

http://xfamily.org/index.php/Berg_and_Anti-Semitism

TFI believes that possibly as few as 6000 Jews died in the holocaust.

That's a FACT. Everyone knows the Jews want to take over the world and that they did WTC. Laughing

http://www.encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/JEWS_DID_WTC

Doesn't Berg quote the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (or whatever it's called) somewhere as proof of their conspiracy? (Nutjob)

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Age Restrictions for Sexual Relationships

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