Reply
Mon 31 Oct, 2005 11:10 am
How Exers can become 'individuals'
If there might be anything us Exers might agree on, it might be that TF took us away from individual freedom into group faith and group esteem.
They didn't allow individual expression, only group obediance. The more you obeyed without question, the higher up the ranks you would go, and the more perks and priviledges you could obtain.
Individuality and indivual thought and expecially individual opposition was not allowed, and was reason for instant ex-communication.
So if that was one of the worst diseases in the Family, and what caused some of the most abusive wounds in our pysche, then how do we get HEALED from group faith. How do we get individual Faith, and get back to the real world of individual decision making and individual responsibility. How do we get away from just blaming the Family and others and anyone and get real in figuring out a path to follow for ourselves. How do we get healed ? How do we help our fellow Exers and SGA's to become individuals ?.
Does it come from writing up Family sins and then post them to the media and press ONLY. Does it come from ranting and raving at any exer that disagrees with us ? Or maybe most importantly does healing come from groupies from within the Family getting into new groups, more powerful groups from which they then think they will be part of the victorious side.
Will politics and nationalism save groupies, who are still groupies once they have left TF. (SEE certain other exers boards for this new group mentality into nationalism and more) Will becoming great groupie systemites be any different for Exers in their outcome. Or is the groupie mentality what we have to conquer ?
Is the only way to GROW up, to become an individual and make serious decisions on our live, the ONLY way to healing. I would suggest YES. We have to give Exers, well written up essays which detail the possible why group faith is anti-individualistic and robs one of personal choice and personal responsibility and hence personal GROWTH.
All the news realeases in the world might not be as beneficial as writing up How exers can become individuals...and this could be the way to their greatest HEALING.
First your ideas, on what dictates group faith and how we can get exers to become individuals, and then LW I shall also give some ideas.
I shant respond to accusers though, they can start their own healing threads if they so choose to do so, FIRST let's post positive ways to make us and all Exers individuals.
Thanks
I think the big flaw in this idea is that, once again, the individual isn't being taken into consideration. There's no regiment of universal "healing" that's going to help the psychology of individuals.
It seems that you're pushing an ideology which desperately wants to veer away from individuals venting their pain in whatever form they see fit. Most ex members ARE on the road to recovery. They're expressing their repressed fear, anger and hatred towards The Family in various forms.
This thread is little more than a means to push your own method of "healing" and get others to do the same. In no way is this a "healing" thread. This thread is a catalyst to provoke, not people's minds, but their emotions.
Again, you are failing to grasp the satire in Fister's comedic writings. Consider the following, why would someone write a post about "exers" "healing" and "individuality" in a format so very similar (only slightly more ludicrous) to that of a Family leaders unless they were making a joke? If you like this type of comedy also check out Roughneck's posts
here at movingon. Personally I prefer Jon Stewart.
They are comedic, that's for sure. But more in a "haha, what a tool" than "haha, he's funny".
Your method John has not worked in the vast majority of lifes. Venting anger is hardly productive and yet exer leadership still taunts it as the Be all and End ALL.
Let's talk about other options, and get to the ROOT of Group Faith and why it is so perverse and destroying to the individual.
We have heard your healing method of venting for decades, so why not consider another method.
besides you haven;t even heard it yet, and already you are complaining about, when we haven;t even got to the healing solution yet.
Real researchers, study and consider, and make up there mind ONLY after, not BEFORE.
You John are in the DENIAL category and say healing comes from venting. Allow other methods to be discussed. Have some open-mindedness John.
nevertheless I shall not respond to you again until you make positive contributions
Got to fly
david
fisherman wrote:Your method John has not worked in the vast majority of lifes. Venting anger is hardly productive and yet exer leadership still taunts it as the Be all and End ALL.
Let's talk about other options, and get to the ROOT of Group Faith and why it is so perverse and destroying to the individual.
We have heard your healing method of venting for decades, so why not consider another method.
besides you haven;t even heard it yet, and already you are complaining about, when we haven;t even got to the healing solution yet.
Real researchers, study and consider, and make up there mind ONLY after, not BEFORE.
You John are in the DENIAL category and say healing comes from venting. Allow other methods to be discussed. Have some open-mindedness John.
nevertheless I shall not respond to you again until you make positive contributions
Got to fly
david
You just stated that my "healing method" has been "heard" yet you completely missed what I was saying. I clearly argued that individuals will vent in the way they see fit. You're confusing the process of venting emotions with "venting anger".
Once again, try reading my post a little slower. Try to take it all in before you fly off the handle with a completely off-topic response. The "ROOT" of the problem was addressed. That "ROOT" is comprised of the fact indivuals "heal" individually. Foisting a method on them and expecting it to work is simply moronic. The idea that conjuring up a regiment of "healing" that goes beyond the way the individual wants, and has gone on to "heal", is just another way of stiffling their progress and causing more pain.
I'll go into further detail. Let's say Joe Nobody was having problems in life. He turns to The Family for support and to try to "heal" the problems in his life. The Family's strict regiment that avoids the needs of individuals was good for a season considering he felt like he belonged. There's "healing" in the sense of well-being you get from knowing you belong somewhere.
However, the universal regiment of "healing" The Family dictates can only go so far. Pretty soon the psychological issues he has in his life rear their ugly head. This, in turn, causes problems in the group to which he belongs to. Maybe he felt like beating Joe Jr extra hard or having sex with 12 year old Anne Nobody to sooth his internal problems. Or perhaps he "reports" Jane Doe, who he sees as a "bad apple", to gain favor and more acceptance. Eventually Joe Jr grows up broken because he was physically abused, Anne Nobody grows up broken because she was physically violated and Jane Doe gets broken because she was sent to a victor camp to "get the victory" and, in the process, is physically and psychologically abused.
That's a severe case of a universal regiment of "healing". The Family thought they were going to "heal" individuals as a group and now here you think you're going to "heal" individuals as a group.
The way to be an individual is to individually choose how you choose to be healed.
The unfortunate thing is that the vast majority of the EXER community has been falsely led to believe even by devoid Pyschologists, that year after year of venting anger and wrath is their solution.
Its obviously isn't as can be seen on exer Boards. venting groups are just as bad as group faith groups, as many exers only connection with others is their venting, as they do it with passion even in packs.
Venting is away from thinking, it is the exact opposite of thinking and figuring out truths. Hence they have to stay in the venting cycle and can never esape unless they start thinking and making individual choices to make progress.
We are suppose to help them be individualistic and get them away from blaming everyone but themselves. We have to get them away from insane mindless venting not into it. We have to cool them down so they can RATIONALLY and LOGICALLY break out of the bad cycle the family got them in.
We have to get them to help themselves, stand on their own two feet. Make decisions for themselves. We have to give them options other than VENTING VENTING VENTING.
Only when they accept the responsibility for their own fate and destination can they ever be individuals. We can NOT make decisions for them and tell them venting is the only solution to all your problems. They have to see it for themselves.
But our job is to show them alternatives on how to become individuals. We can not be pack animals, and force opinions and venting venting wrath and rage, we have to offer other laternatives and not rage against those that suggest venting is the ONLY WAY.
WE have to be an example of individuals that make choices objectively rather than as packs. We have to be so under control that we differ with each other objectively on different subjects because we are objective and different. For if they see we are groupies STILL, and fight like groupies against others, then they will again see the group faith weakness that has so abused them and their growth.
If we don't show them to speak up against tyrants that force them to adopt VENTING VENTING VENTING then we have failed them, and their failire will be ours.
More on the nationalism and churcism, and group faith later...
Once again, you're confusing a broad term like "vent" with the idea that all "venting" is stricly a process of exerting "anger and wrath".
It's not. I realize that whatever online psychology course you've taken or school you might have graduated from three or four decades ago might not have delved too deep into... well... anything, but you should get back to reality on the subject of venting.
A vent is an outlet. People have chosen to vent by means of ascertaining an advanced education, through the creation of music, by writing poetry, with paint and canvas, etc.
Individuals ARE recovering in their own way. They're making choices to help along the "healing" process. Do some need professional help? Yes. But every ex member isn't an emotional paraplegic. They can make choices for themselves as to how they'll "heal".
You keep assuming that this venting (read: choosing outlets) is strictly negative and coupled with negative emotions. GET OVER IT.
Venting is mindless, real healing comes from logic and reason and searching for truths.
Venting is supericial and temporal. Real serious study and discernment takes time and effort and a concentrated mind and honest heart.
Venting leads to vile rude people, real healing is painful but in the end heals and heals those around you.
David Jay Jordan Fisherman
Anonymous wrote:Venting is mindless, real healing comes from logic and reason and searching for truths.
Venting is supericial and temporal. Real serious study and discernment takes time and effort and a concentrated mind and honest heart.
Venting leads to vile rude people, real healing is painful but in the end heals and heals those around you.
David Jay Jordan Fisherman
You're still stuck assuming that "venting" is an entirely negative action. It's like you can't grasp what it is I've spent time typing to you. This is why people become frustrated with you.
If you continue to ignore what people type in general (not even getting to the fact you ignore the points in their text), then you're going to find yourself in the situation that you've probably found yourself in your entire life: misunderstood. Because people aren't willing to invest trust or emotions in someone who comes off as a complete stone wall with petty ideology aimed at nothing beyond serving themselves.
fisherman wrote:The way to be an individual is to individually choose how you choose to be healed.
Is it just me, or does that sound like a Bush-ism?
Bush is bush, and hardly an individual at all, just a controlled freak who likes to control.
But real individuals choose without regard to group pressure and intimidation and societies norms, but according to their own established principles in the heart. They are consistent and therefore real, inside and in external actions. Its called being an individual and it is just the opposite of what TF taught and demanded
Teaching SGA's and exers about individualism would be a step in their healing rather than group venting or insane mindless individual venting.
fisherman wrote:Bush is bush, and hardly an individual at all, just a controlled freak who likes to control.
But real individuals choose without regard to group pressure and intimidation and societies norms, but according to their own established principles in the heart. They are consistent and therefore real, inside and in external actions. Its called being an individual and it is just the opposite of what TF taught and demanded
Teaching SGA's and exers about individualism would be a step in their healing rather than group venting or insane mindless individual venting.
Dude, you forgot to type 'venting' all in capitals and repeat it 3 times.
"Individualism", "Groupism", surely there is a time for taking one's stance as one person against the tide, and a time for giving up our individuality. i believe that latter to be called self-sacrifice.
Something that Jesus Christ did all the time according to the New Testament.
As for venting--I believe Matthew chp 23 shows us Jesus actually doing this.
Making a whip and purging out the Temple could also be seen as Christ venting!
Exactly everman, but the group can't sacrifice an individual for its groupie ends, but an individual must voluntarily give of themselves for others. But the first step in getting away from the abuses of being a groupie and being prayed upon by groupies, is to become an individual, so that we personnally and individually decide for OURSELVES, our own lives. SGA's were never allowed to do this and so in my opinion, there first step to healing is realizing they must decide for themselves their own course of action and life style. They have to take responsibility for their own lifes and suffer the gains or the consequences for their own decisions. To grow up one must make decisions rather than allowing others to make them for us.
The F made weak kneed gutless whimps who just learned to obey and sacrifice. Many of us were sacrificing for others, and even the Lord, but eventually the sacrifices we were called upon to do were not of the Lord and not for others, but just for the dam lazy tyrants of leaders.
Yet once we have become individuals, as SGAs can do, we can THEN decide whether or not to give some or ALL of our lives to others. Whether in charity works, or even as missionaries. Once we have elarned to discern and decide as individuals.
So excellent point, everman, as individuals can choose to give to others... and yet in my opinion that is a secondary step once we have learned to CHOOSE for ourselves. This then means it was voluntary and no force was applied, and usuamlly means the sacrifice is done with a full heart, and the people receeiving such, see it and know it and apppreciate it.
But Everman I would definitely disagree with you that Jesus vented....
There's a world of difference between standing up against hypocrites with simple straight forward truths and foolishly venting wrath.
Jesus spoke up against a vile and ruthless and heartless group, which is an example to all of us to do the same. The groupies called scribes and pharisees were constantly attacking Jesus as Jesus was setting individuals free. This parallelling exactly what is happenning HERE.
The scribes and pharisees of all religions and philosophies vent in anger and wrath against those that they oppress and those that would release and heal those they oppress.
But Jesus was speaking true, righteous ingidnation against them, and will be carrying it out. He showed thru their words and actions that they were not healers but wounders and their vile methods were entrapping and killing rather than healing.
So huge diference between jesus righteous indignation and the scribes and pharisees and the Exer leadership method of venting wrath
IMO
fisherman wrote:Bush is bush, and hardly an individual at all, just a controlled freak who likes to control.
But real individuals choose without regard to group pressure and intimidation and societies norms, but according to their own established principles in the heart. They are consistent and therefore real, inside and in external actions. Its called being an individual and it is just the opposite of what TF taught and demanded
Teaching SGA's and exers about individualism would be a step in their healing rather than group venting or insane mindless individual venting.
All I keep hearing from you is "blah blah blah, I don't have an actual point because I keep jumping between advocating individual and group therapy, so I'm just going to avoid responding to your points".
Seriously, Fishman... when are you going to start responding to points that counter your ridiculous claims? It seems the only people who get through to you are the ones that share a portion of your flared positions.
fisherman wrote:Exactly everman, but the group can't sacrifice an individual for its groupie ends, but an individual must voluntarily give of themselves for others. But the first step in getting away from the abuses of being a groupie and being prayed upon by groupies, is to become an individual, so that we personnally and individually decide for OURSELVES, our own lives. SGA's were never allowed to do this and so in my opinion, there first step to healing is realizing they must decide for themselves their own course of action and life style. They have to take responsibility for their own lifes and suffer the gains or the consequences for their own decisions. To grow up one must make decisions rather than allowing others to make them for us.
The F made weak kneed gutless whimps who just learned to obey and sacrifice. Many of us were sacrificing for others, and even the Lord, but eventually the sacrifices we were called upon to do were not of the Lord and not for others, but just for the dam lazy tyrants of leaders.
Yet once we have become individuals, as SGAs can do, we can THEN decide whether or not to give some or ALL of our lives to others. Whether in charity works, or even as missionaries. Once we have elarned to discern and decide as individuals.
So excellent point, everman, as individuals can choose to give to others... and yet in my opinion that is a secondary step once we have learned to CHOOSE for ourselves. This then means it was voluntary and no force was applied, and usuamlly means the sacrifice is done with a full heart, and the people receeiving such, see it and know it and apppreciate it.
Fishman, you're saying that YOU should dictate the way other people cope with their history as if YOU know exactly what they went through. YOU don't. When you claim that "venting" (keep in mind that venting can be positive or negative and is ultimately an outlet and form of coping) is degenerative, you have ZERO points to back that claim up.
You keep bringing up NEGATIVE "venting" as if that's what we're talking about. Yet, if you read back on page one, there's a clear explaination of what venting entails. You conveniently ignored the post and went on with your moronic ramblings as you continue to push your idealistic rhetoric.
Why don't you go and talk to yourself in a corner somewhere because that's about as far as your discussion skills go: reasoning with yourself. You avoid key points that completely rip apart your weak bullshit and continue to parrot off what you've been saying since the beginning.
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace