Hello from Jerusalem

@Binyamin Tsadik,

All perspectives are certainly welcome here.
Cheers,
John

@jgweed,

Hmmmmm

interesting

religious jewish im assuming

that would bring question about life

sweeeeeeet

@SummyF,

Welcome Binyamin Tsadik!

Like jgweed said, all perspectives are welcome here. Keep an open mind and you are sure to benefit from the community. There have been a lot of pseudo-scientific discussions lately in the philosophy of science section, so I bet you'll enjoy those threads a lot. The religious philosophy section is definitely a hot topic place to be. Incidentally, I was just discussing with an old professor of mine on the Jewish conception of personhood. Could be a good discussion.

Look forward to seeing you 'round the forum.

@VideCorSpoon,

What do you mean by personhood?

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Are you a turkish jew? or iranian jew?

did you move to israel?

my grand mother did

@SummyF,

Personhood as in the conception of a person. In the discussion, I was talking to him (a professor in ancient history and archeology) about Etruscan funerary urns. The topic that brought up the Jewish conception of personhood came when I asked him why infant Etruscans were never cremated and placed in these very elaborate funerary urns. His response was that of practicality. Etruscans did not think it practical to burn a body they could simply put in the urn or in fact( and very often) buried underneath the house. Etruscans did not have the same conceptions we have on new born remains. Being Jewish (though not brought up in an exoticist sense), he brought up a parallel about the Jewish conception (older conception) of acknowledging a baby after one month because of infant mortality and things of that nature. He said that it went even so far as not giving the baby a name, and related that to how Christians have a "christening." Basically an old custom with a new meaning. But there are some pretty big implications in that conception which is why it would make for an interesting discussion. There was more to the discussion, but that is just a little bit of it.

@VideCorSpoon,

SummyF:
My family's exile was traced back to France before the Fracs got there. What is your history?

Videcorespoon:
So what do these rituals imply about personhood?

@Binyamin Tsadik,

my dad is persian jew and my mom is spanish jew

like my grand mother is the only one in israel, everyone eles moved to the us

@SummyF,

Hmm...

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

Videcorespoon:
So what do these rituals imply about personhood?

To reply,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

Personhood as in the conception of a person.

You don't approve of a comparison to other cultures conceptions of personhood?

@VideCorSpoon,

Quick question

how is the economy in israel?

good bad desent ?

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik;25485 wrote:

What do you mean by personhood?

I would say that our image of 'personhood' is in the neighborhood of egoic self image. With no egoic images present, at the moment, we are no longer autonomous, and One with the Tapestry of existence (of the moment). It is ego where we imagine being an autonomous 'person'. It is there that common concept of 'self' lies, and is identified with and believed; the 'self' of 'selfish', the 'self' of which there is 'less' in 'selfless'.

@nameless,

The type of personhood here is pertaining more to the bio-ethical conception of personhood. But your thoughts are good though.

@VideCorSpoon,

I am still having a difficult time trying to figure out what you are getting to. By personhood are you refering to the conception of self? How is this connected with burrial rituals?

Re: Economy in Israel
It's not great but it's getting better. If I were in the U.S. I would make 5 times the money, but I would prefer to sweep the streets here than be a king any where else.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

ic,

is Jerusalem really violent

and what do you think about giving Palestine rights to vote in Israelis elections

@SummyF,

Personhood as in the conceptualization and recognition of the individual. Like legal personhood. And sure, it could be related to the conception of the self, the cogito, what have you... but not as far as I was concerned. This is a potential bio-ethical issue as well as a metaphysical issue. The connection to burial rituals was that the recognition of infants (Etruscans) was paralleled with an old Jewish conception (according to one of my old professors) where a period of time had to pass by before they were actually considered "person," "people," or "individual." Before that time had come to pass, they were not even given names because (in olden days) infant mortality was very high. There was brief time when a living breathing infant was not considered an person. The potential philosophical discussion enters when we apply the issue of fetal rights and bio-ethical issues to the old conception.

This line of inquiry has become very Pyrrhic.

@VideCorSpoon,

VideCorSpoon wrote:

Personhood as in the conceptualization and recognition of the individual. Like legal personhood. And sure, it could be related to the conception of the self, the cogito, what have you... but not as far as I was concerned. This is a potential bio-ethical issue as well as a metaphysical issue. The connection to burial rituals was that the recognition of infants (Etruscans) was paralleled with an old Jewish conception (according to one of my old professors) where a period of time had to pass by before they were actually considered "person," "people," or "individual." Before that time had come to pass, they were not even given names because (in olden days) infant mortality was very high. There was brief time when a living breathing infant was not considered an person. The potential philosophical discussion enters when we apply the issue of fetal rights and bio-ethical issues to the old conception.

This line of inquiry has become very Pyrrhic.

I just want to enlighten you to a couple of Jewish Laws that will change your point of view.

1. A jewish child is given a name on the 8th day after its birth during the ritual circumcision.

2. There is a Law called "Pideon HaBen". This is where the first born child must be redeemed if it is a male. I am a firstborn son, but I did not have a "Pideon HaBen". The reason being is because my mother had a miscarrage before I was born. If the misscarrage can be considered "Flesh" then I am not considered as the first born. A misscariage must also be burried.

@SummyF,

SummyF wrote:

ic,

is Jerusalem really violent

and what do you think about giving Palestine rights to vote in Israelis elections

Firstly the term Palestinian is a very problematic term. 100 years ago, if I said I was Palestinian, then most of the world would assume I was Jewish.
Most Arabs in Israel today, are first or second generation born within Israel. Their family came from neighboring countries during the Zionist movement because Israel offered many jobs at the time.
There are Israeli Arabs today and there are Arabs that live outside of Israeli Territory and have a Non-Israeli citizenship card.
Israeli Arabs are given the right to vote in Israeli elections.

And yes I do disagree with this right. Arabs have 22 different countries and Jews have only 1 tiny one. Throughout history Jews were denied the Right to vote in both European Countries and in Arab countries. Why should Jews have the right to influence the government of another nation? They shouldn't! It is up to every nation to rule itself. So why must an Israeli government be influenced by another Nation?

And Jerusalem is usually not violent.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik;25641 wrote:

Firstly the term Palestinian is a very problematic term. 100 years ago, if I said I was Palestinian, then most of the world would assume I was Jewish.
Most Arabs in Israel today, are first or second generation born within Israel. Their family came from neighboring countries during the Zionist movement because Israel offered many jobs at the time.
There are Israeli Arabs today and there are Arabs that live outside of Israeli Territory and have a Non-Israeli citizenship card.
Israeli Arabs are given the right to vote in Israeli elections.

And yes I do disagree with this right. Arabs have 22 different countries and Jews have only 1 tiny one. Throughout history Jews were denied the Right to vote in both European Countries and in Arab countries. Why should Jews have the right to influence the government of another nation? They shouldn't! It is up to every nation to rule itself. So why must an Israeli government be influenced by another Nation?

And Jerusalem is usually not violent.

Why should Jews have the right to influence the government of another nation?

Yet, jews are and have

Herzl and Zionist asked the help of the governments to create there nation. Today 6 millions dollar are given everyday to the state of Israel. Most of these jews have dual citzenships. Even though they are citizens of both, one nation gets more allegiance israel(because of the ethnical and religious connotation israel has for american zionist jews)

I see your point of view, but with the definition you made of israel there are some problems i see

there ought to be a nation for jews, because of there ethnic/religous background

This sounds to my like aryans ought to have a nation of there own and no other group should interfere. ex. jews

If this definition was applied in nazi germany, ethnic groups were lockup to separate them from the mainstream society

If this definition is applied to gaza and the west bank, something similar can happen. Maybe not at the same magnitude

But i respect Israel's sovereignty and it ability to govern itself. that is why i belive that jews in america should not support Isreal. I support my reason because American socialization's and ideology are not the same. The same interest argument is also invalid. We are losing diplomatic relationship, and quptist have created a campaign against the us.

@Binyamin Tsadik,

Binyamin Tsadik wrote:

I just want to enlighten you to a couple of Jewish Laws that will change your point of view.

1. A jewish child is given a name on the 8th day after its birth during the ritual circumcision.

2. There is a Law called "Pideon HaBen". This is where the first born child must be redeemed if it is a male. I am a firstborn son, but I did not have a "Pideon HaBen". The reason being is because my mother had a miscarrage before I was born. If the misscarrage can be considered "Flesh" then I am not considered as the first born. A misscariage must also be burried.

The comment was not really my point of view,but a point of discussion. Interesting facts though, especially "Pidion HaBen"

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