The Dao- The Mysteries

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Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 05:34 am
I know that many would consider daoism a religion but that is not the goal of this thread.

What I would like to open up is the thinking around the mysteries of life and death, and both how they relate to the reality of our lives, and how they are deliberately avoided by the scientific community because of the inability to measure and observe these mysteries under the microscope.

Maybe one of our members could put in a little info on the Dao here to give us a starting point. I am inviting a couple of specific members that have shown interest in this topic.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:08 am
@Pathfinder,
i think rich knows something about the dao. actually, i am into sufism-that's kind of like the dao on drugs, i would describe it.

but outside of any particular Ism i can think about it and get back to you in a little while.
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:19 am
@salima,
What are those mysteries? What happens after death? We will find out when we die =)
What happens before life? We will probally find it out when we die as well =)
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:26 am
@manored,
Hi everyone,

My ideas have evolved over many years. What I have put together is based upon many source. My general approach is to take life as it is and try to understand. I do not view things as mistakes or illusions. But rather they are there for a reason and I try to understand the reasons. A very good and simple example.

Why do we have pain?

Pain motivates us to change. If there is no pain, then there is no motivation to change. Pain is the way, the message, that the mind uses to tell us we need to change. A simple example would be a stomach ache which warns us that we have eaten to much.

So this is my philosophy of life. It is not to be corrected or treated as a mistake, but rather a message that I try to understand.

Another example would be, one of my favorite quotes:

The highest, as the lowest, form of criticism is a mode of autobiography.
Picture of Dorian Gray
Oscar Wilde

How do we know who we are? How do we look at ourselves and understand ourselves. We need a mirror. This is our mirror. How we criticize others is a mirror of ourselves. Everything has a reason.

I hope this is a good beginning to share with you my approach to understanding life.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:44 am
@manored,
manored;86881 wrote:
What are those mysteries? What happens after death? We will find out when we die =)
What happens before life? We will probally find it out when we die as well =)




Hi Manored,

I have been with you on threads before I recognize the name.

are you suggesting that all of these mysteries may have answers in some sort of afterlife?
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:53 am
@manored,
manored;86881 wrote:
What are those mysteries? What happens after death? We will find out when we die =)
What happens before life? We will probally find it out when we die as well =)


This may be so. But I think there are clues in this life. And the purpose of this life may be nothing more than exploring these clues.

If we analogize this to a game - and game, one can ask: What happens at the end of the game? And the answer may be: We will know at the end of the game. But, we need to play the game first in order to find out.

Rich
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:58 am
@Pathfinder,
the last part of your question I am going to ignore because I have no interest in it and can only see it causing friction. one of my main ideals is unity and harmony, which is actually a paradox since unity means one and harmony has to have more than one. but I can comment on the remainder.

the mysteries of life and death-how they relate to the reality of our lives...i assume by the reality of our lives, you are referring to the experience of our lives-what is the affect on our lives that life and death are mysteries...? or probably closer to the issue is how does our interpretation of the mysteries of life and death affect our own living and dying?

I have been thinking about these things for over half a century now and dont expect to ever get it all figured out. it causes a lot of angst at first but the longer we ponder I think the questions evaporate and the few that are left seem a lot less important than they once were. if we are busy actually living our lives we dont need to know what comes before and after them. of course one can be busy and oblivious or busy and enlightened.

but I have seriously been more concerned with what we do during our lives than anything else, because I dont feel we can know for certain what the experience of anything else will be. it seems almost more beneficial to me to not know! for instance, if I were a strict adherent to religious dogma, I would be in a constant state of anxiety trying to reach a certain standard and wondering what would be my ultimate fate. if I were to believe my life had to fulfill some purpose and been unable to align with anyone else's ideas of what that purpose is, I would have been miserably depressed-but I chose instead to give myself short term goals, rather than an overall plan or purpose.

to me the only issue is to become a more integrated and fully functioning human being, and I feel if I can do that the return would be sufficient for both me and the cosmos.

but I dont think that is what you wanted to hear.

should I speculate on the mysteries of manifestation? should I give you the basic mystic outlook? but I think you can find these on the internet just as easily. should I start with reincarnation which I know you believe is likely and I dont? or should I go back to some questions you posed on the other thread, I.e. how does life enter the body? give me a hint where to go with this...
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 09:59 am
@richrf,
richrf;86884 wrote:
Hi everyone,

My ideas have evolved over many years. What I have put together is based upon many source. My general approach is to take life as it is and try to understand. I do not view things as mistakes or illusions. But rather they are there for a reason and I try to understand the reasons. A very good and simple example.

Why do we have pain?

Pain motivates us to change. If there is no pain, then there is no motivation to change. Pain is the way, the message, that the mind uses to tell us we need to change. A simple example would be a stomach ache which warns us that we have eaten to much.

So this is my philosophy of life. It is not to be corrected or treated as a mistake, but rather a message that I try to understand.

Another example would be, one of my favorite quotes:

The highest, as the lowest, form of criticism is a mode of autobiography.
Picture of Dorian Gray
Oscar Wilde

How do we know who we are? How do we look at ourselves and understand ourselves. We need a mirror. This is our mirror. How we criticize others is a mirror of ourselves. Everything has a reason.

I hope this is a good beginning to share with you my approach to understanding life.


So life is basically a matter of becoming who we are by comparing ourselves to how we observe others. And in our critique of what we observe we also critique our own character. Is that close to summarizing Rich?

I would like to take this from here on that thought and ask everyone how they think that what we become as individuals is important in the overall scheme of things if everything is nothing more than biological function and/or that who and what we become may or may not be important to each of us in some future context.

For instance, my take on life, IMHO, is that humanity, as a whole, is on an evolutionary path to becoming a more mature species, and that this goal will not be reached until mankind can understand a harmony with itself that remains hidden within these great mysteries of life,and are a part of the bigger picture of creation as a whole. Our struggle to understand and balance life and these mysteries is the key to reaching a higher state of being which all of creation patiently awaits and works toward. That is why as life goes on, it is in continuous flux, changing and adapting to the changes and than changing again.

Creation is a constant struggle to reach higher planes of existence, which are all around us and yet invisible to us until we learn more and reach better understandings.

For this reason I believe that it is vital for a man to strive to learn all he can, to always avoid deceit, and to enhance and nurture his moral character in every way that he can. To achieve virtue and integrity may not be a necessity in the biological sense, but humanity's goal is to become more than biologically inclined, and to reach for the mysteries where their higher state of being can be realized. Therefore the metaphysics of life is every bit as important and possibly moreso than the scientific physics.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:00 am
@Pathfinder,
no, more than a hint-ask me something specific, i am a little dense sometimes...:listening:

ah, your post to reply to rich crashed into mine. very good, you just about summed up what i have come to believe. we are both invested in the same basic plan. between us there are only a few insignificant details.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:08 am
@salima,
salima;86898 wrote:
the last part of your question I am going to ignore because I have no interest in it and can only see it causing friction. one of my main ideals is unity and harmony, which is actually a paradox since unity means one and harmony has to have more than one. but I can comment on the remainder.

the mysteries of life and death-how they relate to the reality of our lives...i assume by the reality of our lives, you are referring to the experience of our lives-what is the affect on our lives that life and death are mysteries...? or probably closer to the issue is how does our interpretation of the mysteries of life and death affect our own living and dying?

I have been thinking about these things for over half a century now and dont expect to ever get it all figured out. it causes a lot of angst at first but the longer we ponder I think the questions evaporate and the few that are left seem a lot less important than they once were. if we are busy actually living our lives we dont need to know what comes before and after them. of course one can be busy and oblivious or busy and enlightened.

but I have seriously been more concerned with what we do during our lives than anything else, because I dont feel we can know for certain what the experience of anything else will be. it seems almost more beneficial to me to not know! for instance, if I were a strict adherent to religious dogma, I would be in a constant state of anxiety trying to reach a certain standard and wondering what would be my ultimate fate. if I were to believe my life had to fulfill some purpose and been unable to align with anyone else's ideas of what that purpose is, I would have been miserably depressed-but I chose instead to give myself short term goals, rather than an overall plan or purpose.

to me the only issue is to become a more integrated and fully functioning human being, and I feel if I can do that the return would be sufficient for both me and the cosmos.

but I dont think that is what you wanted to hear.

should I speculate on the mysteries of manifestation? should I give you the basic mystic outlook? but I think you can find these on the internet just as easily. should I start with reincarnation which I know you believe is likely and I dont? or should I go back to some questions you posed on the other thread, I.e. how does life enter the body? give me a hint where to go with this...



On the contrary , that is exactly what I like to hear. I think you touch on a very valid point when you say that (ignorance is bliss), not your words my twisting.

Your outlook and mine are very similar in that I think it is far more a priority to enhance ones individual character than it is to fill oneself with knowledge. I truly believe that creation is moving forward on the heels of mankinds ability to evolve into a more mature state of being that is more in harmony with the entire package of creation. So what you are saying makes perfect sense to me.

Don't take this to mean that I see no value in knowledge or technological advancement. I think we should all strive eagerly to learn, but we should learn in context to what makes us better individuals and in what helps us as a species.
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:11 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;86899 wrote:
So life is basically a matter of becoming who we are by comparing ourselves to how we observe others. And in our critique of what we observe we also critique our own character. Is that close to summarizing Rich?


I think this would be a part of it.

Who we are? This can be taken literally as who we are in this life. Or it can be taken more broadly as who we are, who being the universe in its totality. So we look at ourselves and we outside of ourselves, and we explore the totality. We try to figure out who we are - we being the totality of everything.

I like the holographic metaphor where the totality of the image is stored in each piece of the image, but the image gets more blurred as the pieces get smaller.

Pathfinder;86899 wrote:
if everything is nothing more than biological function and/or that who and what we become may or may not be important to each of us in some future context.


I think that he biological function is a metaphor (manifestation) of the totality. By observing the micro one can discern the macro (like a hologram). From the macro one can discern the micro (like a hologram). For me, everything is inseparable.

Pathfinder;86899 wrote:
Our struggle to understand and balance life


From my view, I would say that we are understanding life. Whether we can balance life is debatable. I believe that life is self-balancing like the water in a river.

Pathfinder;86899 wrote:
and these mysteries is the key to reaching a higher state of being which all of creation patiently awaits and works toward. That is why as life goes on, it is in continuous flux, changing and adapting to the changes and than changing again.


I like to believe that we are all in a state of being that we should be. We are all evolving at our own pace in our own direction. Is a line going in one direction and better or in a higher state than another?

Maybe some are more sensitive to their surroundings in some ways than others? Maybe that is where they are suppose to be at that time. Maybe others are more sensitive in other ways. It seems we are all exploring in our own way, and the enjoyment comes from the exploration itself as oppose to a goal. Does a baby have a goal when it looks in a mirror and smiles?

Pathfinder;86899 wrote:
Creation is a constant struggle to reach higher planes of existence, which are all around us and yet invisible to us until we learn more and reach better understandings.


This may be so for some of us. For me, it is different. I believe we are all exploring, learning, creating, and sharing in our own ways.

Rich
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:17 am
@Pathfinder,
So Rich, you the walk of life as a very individual experience with regard to your responsibility to the whole? I guess by that I mean do you own any obligation to mankind as a whole or do you see life as just a matter of being individuals? Because as we enter that discussion the whole topic of reincarnation and identity transference will arise.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:33 am
@Pathfinder,
I am trying to work out a way of explaining morality in this light, because I believe it is intrinsic. the individual and the whole are actually one.

I would have to say that in a sense I do believe I dont even exist as an individual. my theory is that there is only one being who is looking through my eyes, etc-so whatever I do really doesnt matter to me or to it. but I have decided to make it matter-and if in fact there were no 'it' I would feel the same way. there is no afterlife as there is no before life because there is in fact no life at all-it is only a condition. when you have a fever, do you believe something called 'a fever' has entered your body and you have to get rid of it? I now believe that not only is there no afterlife for an entity who goes by the name of salima, there isnt any such being at all. but I do have an identity-it is the same as yours. and this biological body and mind is something that I (that I that does not exist) have tried to usurp most of my life and make it obey the commands of a false identity. what a folly...

I dont believe there is so much as a spark of the divine in me (this body) as I believe it IS this body and everything else that exists. it is experiencing what it is to be a rock. a rock can be kicked, thrown in the water, used as a tool for a kind of work, made into an implement to kill. that 'it' can possibly perceive through something in that rock and know what it is to be a rock-the mind in this body called salima cannot know that.

there is no 'life' that enters a body and leaves it and finds another. there is only 'the life' that is present even in death. there is a connection-in fact there doesnt have to be any connection because there is in truth no separation-between you and me and that apparently insentient rock. and this is what explains to me all the things that you believe reincarnation explains.

I also believe that the knowledge of this is inherent in all the biological bodies and minds due to the fact that the 'being' or 'life'-actually I have come to call it Consciousness-is the source and cause of their manifestation. all knowledge is within every element of manifestation.

you and I both do not believe in a creator-my thoughts are that Consciousness is evolving as it can because it can and without intent. there seems to me to be a nurturing force, which also makes sense to me because if the essence of this Consciousness were destructive it would have self destructed, and it did not. therefore it seems logical to me that everything has an inherent desire to exist. I see evolution as being evidence of an always greater complexity and this is a hint to me that it is inherent in Consciousness to evolve towards greater complexity. not an intent shall we say more a tendency or propensity.

realizing this, why would I (that figment of my imagination) not also try to follow that route? there are two wills in me, and have been ever since the child perceived no matter how mistakenly that it was separate from the fabric of the cosmos. the false will of that little child often wants what is destructive or futile, while the genuine will of Consciousness wants only to exist and evolve. I am now trying to follow the absolute and what I believe to be the only yearning of all creation-to realize its true identity.

 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 10:54 am
@Pathfinder,
Daoism
"Where there is impossibility, there is possibility; and where there is possibility, there is impossibility. It is because there is right, that there is wrong; it is because there is wrong, there is right...Thereupon the self is also the other; the other is also the self.

I am a theist that believes Gods creation is a duality of good and evil, light and dark, love and hate very similar to some of Daoism
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 11:05 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;86934 wrote:
Daoism
"Where there is impossibility, there is possibility; and where there is possibility, there is impossibility. It is because there is right, that there is wrong; it is because there is wrong, there is right...Thereupon the self is also the other; the other is also the self.

I am a theist that believes Gods creation is a duality of good and evil, light and dark, love and hate very similar to some of Daoism


hi alan!
i was just thinking of you today, wondering where you were. what a perfect time and place for you to show up!
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 11:13 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;86909 wrote:
So Rich, you the walk of life as a very individual experience with regard to your responsibility to the whole? I guess by that I mean do you own any obligation to mankind as a whole or do you see life as just a matter of being individuals? Because as we enter that discussion the whole topic of reincarnation and identity transference will arise.


Hi Pathfinder,

I think obligation would not be the word I use.

I do not think in terms of separability - e..g me and them. We are all in this together. I have my Will and it works in conjunction with everything that surrounds me and inlfuences me - people, plants, animals, water, oxygen, gravity, etc. And I am navigating through this all, exploring and working with it, in the way that I can best navigate given the limitations of my skills and experience.

I think of myself as a wave within an ocean, and I affect everything in the ocean and everything in the ocean affects me. But I do have Will/Intent to change direction. In Daoism, this Intent is called the Zhi.


Rich

---------- Post added 08-30-2009 at 12:17 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;86934 wrote:
Daoism
"Where there is impossibility, there is possibility; and where there is possibility, there is impossibility. It is because there is right, that there is wrong; it is because there is wrong, there is right...Thereupon the self is also the other; the other is also the self.

I am a theist that believes Gods creation is a duality of good and evil, light and dark, love and hate very similar to some of Daoism


Yes, I have a similar outlook. I accept as being all sides of the Universe. It is exactly what I observe.

Rich
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 12:34 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;86934 wrote:
Daoism
"Where there is impossibility, there is possibility; and where there is possibility, there is impossibility. It is because there is right, that there is wrong; it is because there is wrong, there is right...Thereupon the self is also the other; the other is also the self.

I am a theist that believes Gods creation is a duality of good and evil, light and dark, love and hate very similar to some of Daoism



Actually Alan, its funny you say that because I just read on the internet here somewhere that one of the ancient chinese texts is actually almost word for word translated the same way that John 1:1 was written only they speak of the Overall Creation instead of individualizing it as the Logos Incarnate. Do you think that is coincidental in any way? That text would have been written 4 thousand years before John. And I know that the book of Gilgamesh and some oither ancient Mesopotamian writings also mimic the Bible, or should I say the Bible written long after them seems to mimic them.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 02:19 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder;86961 wrote:
Actually Alan, its funny you say that because I just read on the internet here somewhere that one of the ancient chinese texts is actually almost word for word translated the same way that John 1:1 was written only they speak of the Overall Creation instead of individualizing it as the Logos Incarnate. Do you think that is coincidental in any way? That text would have been written 4 thousand years before John. And I know that the book of Gilgamesh and some oither ancient Mesopotamian writings also mimic the Bible, or should I say the Bible written long after them seems to mimic them.


the fact is that in mysticism among all people and all times in history the message is always the same. mysticism is there to be found in any scripture. there are always common threads running through them. i think the reason for that is because there are certain truths that keep trying to come out of the psyche of man into the open and be acknowledged. prophets had revelations coming from a place deep in the psyche, in my opinion-not an outer godhead.

i believe i see and sense a great number of people in the world today in a position of receiving revelations-and it is all part of what some circles call the shift in consciousness.

whereas the presentation of religious scriptures and doctrines changed over time, mysticism always had one message-unity. this has been introduced slowly and gradually into the focus of biological consciousness (meaning that it was always known in Consciousness) over the ages, and i think now at last it is ready to be accepted. i feel that biologically no species would have survived without a sense of separateness. so it would be dangerous to debunk that until the species was ready to comprehend the meaning of what it is to be so many opposing conditions at once: separate, whole, nonexistent, all knowing.

i just ran across an interview with dr john weir perry, a student of carl jung, where it is mentioned that there have been major upheavals before a profound culture change, and they can be compared to the crisis many individuals face in their personal awakening.

theosophy also has a lot of interesting ideas, you must have looked into that i assume? some are wacko too, but interesting...
 
prothero
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 03:07 pm
@salima,
Hello Salima
The collective unconsciousness of Carl Jung becoming conscious?
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 30 Aug, 2009 03:58 pm
@prothero,
prothero;86984 wrote:
Hello Salima
The collective unconsciousness of Carl Jung becoming conscious?


sounds good to me. dr weir ran an experimental clinic in california called diabasis-google it if you are interested. he had great insight. how many people i know who have gone through a psychotic (mislabeled, it really was psychic) crisis and come out all together again and better than ever.

look at things like walsch and his 'conversations with god' or a course in miracles, a lot of stuff that is thought to be channeled from other spirits, which in my opinion is only coming from the id which has a greater connection to the entire Consciousness base. lot of it going on since the 70's, the 'seth material' etc. some of it is being interpreted in a biased way, but it is so easy to tell how and why that happens. for instance, jane roberts was a science fiction writer-so everything seth said came out like science fiction. but there are some very deep truths at the core of what he/she was saying under the razzle dazzle sci-fi trappings.
 
 

 
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