Reincarnation

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Theaetetus
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 04:45 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
The growing human population does not defy reincarnation: typically, reincarnation is thought of as something experienced by all sentient beings, not just humans.


That would depend on who you ask. I have met many people over the years that think humans can only reincarnate as humans. They invoke other planets, and the universe as a whole to explain.
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 04:46 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Dichanthelium wrote:
Also, I have heard that such advanced individuals can develop the ability to remember previous lives, which allows them to gain an even deeper understanding of why they are in their current circumstances. Such insights presumably provide them greater opportunity to grow toward even greater levels of perfection.

And to become a perfect human being may be the ultimate and truest goal of religion.


Really? How do people who make such claims say that they learned this ability? Is it understood to be something anyone could learn?

And when you say "a perfect human being," what would such a person be like?
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 04:51 pm
@andykelly,
Are you arguing with yourself?
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 04:52 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
That would depend on who you ask. I have met many people over the years that think humans can only reincarnate as humans. They invoke other planets, and the universe as a whole to explain.


That's fine: there's a lot of New Age nonsense floating around. But go back to the long standing traditions which teach reincarnation, Buddhism and Hinduism, and see what they have to say about the matter before you talk to crazy westerners who like reading spiritual self help manuals.
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 05:00 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Are you arguing with yourself?


No, just conversing.
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 05:06 pm
@Dichanthelium,
Dichanthelium wrote:
Really? How do people who make such claims say that they learned this ability? Is it understood to be something anyone could learn?

And when you say "a perfect human being," what would such a person be like?


From what I can gather, the ability is the result of meditation and other spiritual exercises. Such memory is not the goal itself, though. It would seem to be a benefit that accompanies a process of self-purification. Any willing student could learn it.

As for the perfect human being, how about someone who has overcome greed and hatred, and leads a life focused on helping other people? Would that get us into the neighborhood?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 06:50 pm
@andykelly,
I am afraid I am jumping into the midst of this without having taken the time to read the thread. You can all kick my butt for that later! I will go back for a few looks here and there.

But to try to stay in the most recent theme:

I think, IMHO, that whatever this unknown force is that bears life into this world from some other place, also unknown to us, it is not illogical to suppose that since it can be born into a present life at this time, that it could also have done so before and could do so again.

It is not the carrying of life from one incarnation to another that seems to be the dilemma, it is more the understanding of exactly what it is that is being reincarnated. Is it an identity, an individual life force, a singular consciousness, one identity being reborn over and over again, and if so does it retain any of the characteristics and quality that it gained through previous lives?
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 07:38 pm
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
It is not the carrying of life from one incarnation to another that seems to be the dilemma, it is more the understanding of exactly what it is that is being reincarnated. Is it an identity, an individual life force, a singular consciousness, one identity being reborn over and over again, and if so does it retain any of the characteristics and quality that it gained through previous lives?


Suppose we call it, as I have heard, an "individuality." The word "soul" has too much baggage, I think. Certainly, within this perspective, it is assumed that the individual retains something from previous existences, right?

One thing that is interesting to me is the notion of encounter. When I encounter someone, I may reflect on "Who is this individuality?" Seeing that individual in the perspective of karma is disquieting. The fact that I have encountered this individual, leads me to wonder, among other things, what am I supposed to learn from this?
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 10:06 pm
@Dichanthelium,
One thing that is interesting to me is the notion of encounter. When I encounter someone, I may reflect on "Who is this individuality?" Seeing that individual in the perspective of karma is disquieting. The fact that I have encountered this individual, leads me to wonder, among other things, what am I supposed to learn from this?[/quote]


I assume that by this you attempt to suggest that a sort of destiny is leading us to learn from each others' experiences, and this somehow is knowledge evolving itself? Correct me if I am wrong or not quite on the mark.
 
nameless
 
Reply Fri 27 Feb, 2009 10:28 pm
@andykelly,
andykelly;25 wrote:
This thread is for the discussion of reincarnation if indeed there is such a thing. Many millions of people all over the world believe in reincarnation from most sects of buddhism to hinduism etc.

'Motion' is a locally perceived phenomenon. It is illusion. 'Time' is a feature arising with the notion of 'motion'. Neither 'time' nor 'motion' is universally inherent other than as Perspectives, as is linearity and sequence.
As 'reincarnation' is an emergent notion of these 'illusions', it has it's 'reality' the same place as the 'foundation thereof', in the imagination rather than any other 'reality'. 'Reincarnation' is a natural phenomenon born of a common illusion.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:06 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
'Motion' is a locally perceived phenomenon. It is illusion. 'Time' is a feature arising with the notion of 'motion'. Neither 'time' nor 'motion' is universally inherent other than as Perspectives, as is linearity and sequence.
As 'reincarnation' is an emergent notion of these 'illusions', it has it's 'reality' the same place as the 'foundation thereof', in the imagination rather than any other 'reality'. 'Reincarnation' is a natural phenomenon born of a common illusion.


Reincarnation is a phenomenon that grew out of the need for social control. It helps people to manipulate others. Time arises out of memory. The only reason why humans perceive time, is due to their strong capabilities to remember things. That is what gives meaning to the concept of time. Not the notion of motion.

As I have repeatedly told you, you cannot just make up new meanings to common terms as you chose. You can for yourself if that makes you feel better about yourself, but just because that is what you believe does not mean it hold true for anyone else.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 01:32 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Reincarnation is a phenomenon that grew out of the need for social control. It helps people to manipulate others.


You'll have a tough time supporting that assertion.

Even if we grant that reincarnation can be used to manipulate/control others (which is true), it does not follow that reincarnation is a phenomenon that grew out of the need for social control.

Recall, concepts of reincarnation predate the Aryan invasion of India, and thus predate the caste system.

Let's not forget the science behind reincarnation:
Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to say that science has determined that reincarnation is a theory on par with something like evolutionary theory, but there has been research on the matter which seems to support at least some sort of reincarnation. Certainly, more research needs to be done, but let's not pretend that science only laughs at the concept.
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 03:03 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;51126 wrote:
Reincarnation is a phenomenon that grew out of the need for social control. It helps people to manipulate others. Time arises out of memory. The only reason why humans perceive time, is due to their strong capabilities to remember things. That is what gives meaning to the concept of time. Not the notion of motion.

Been there, done that, moved on. So will you, eventually. It's a logically unsound position.

Ya know, following me around like this and declaring that this IS this and that IS that, unable to support what you say logically, and automatically gainsaying what I say (and can support logically and scientifically) is, frankly, irritating (and rather like stalking). You don't have to agree with me, I could care less! What I offer is food for thought for people with the cognitive and imaginative TEETH to be able to chew and digest it! You might just want to put me on your ignore list... as I see nothing fruitful comming from further conversation between us.

Quote:
As I have repeatedly told you, you cannot just make up new meanings to common terms as you chose.

I certainly can and will and whats more, sir, you are really beginning to bore me.
The droning repetition of your attempts to shove your miopic opinions/beliefs down my throat has elevated you from a 'bore' to 'irritating'. Shoo!
You aught to ignore me if what I say so bothers you.

Quote:
but just because that is what you believe does not mean it hold true for anyone else.

Psychologically, that is called 'projection'. Look it up.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 06:39 am
@andykelly,
I would like to ask everyone a couple of simple questions.

In that instantaneous millisecond when 'something' occurs that causes a lifeless thing to instantly become a thing with life, there arises two questions.

First, is it really too much to consider that whatever that 'something' was could be something that will continue to happen again, over and over. Why would this not be a logical consideration given the fact that it just happened now?

And secondly, can we not consider the possible connections of that 'something' being the same sort of occurrence that happened in the very beginning of creation?
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 07:26 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
I assume that by this you attempt to suggest that a sort of destiny is leading us to learn from each others' experiences, and this somehow is knowledge evolving itself? Correct me if I am wrong or not quite on the mark.


Yes, exactly. The concept was introduced to me within the context of Anthroposophy, but I believe that many, if not all the traditions that work within this model do emphasize a concept of destiny, and that each individual destiny is shaped by encounters with other individuals.

My personal experience is that, by adopting this interpretation, even if only for the sake of the exercise, I open doors into greater depths of understanding of both myself and other individuals.

Sometimes very brief encounters trigger monumental changes in my outlook and understanding. Other encounters are puzzling--I keep bumping into certain people more often than would seem likely or natural. "What a coincidence!" I say. But on reflection, I think, "What am I supposed to learn from this person?"
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 08:23 am
@andykelly,
i see, so certain encounters that appear to continue popping into your focus draw you to conclude that destiny is trying to get yo to discover something in particular?

I am not sure whether or not this can be considered creating your own destiny though, if you are actually experiencing something that is preconceived by some higher power or force. If you are following some sort of guide, than are you not living in something else's creation?

I do however agree that learning from encounters with others is certainly a way to add to the evolution and enhancement of your life force.

But back to Reincarnation:

What are your thoughts on my above questions?
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 10:42 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
In that instantaneous millisecond when 'something' occurs that causes a lifeless thing to instantly become a thing with life, there arises two questions.

First, is it really too much to consider that whatever that 'something' was could be something that will continue to happen again, over and over. Why would this not be a logical consideration given the fact that it just happened now?

And secondly, can we not consider the possible connections of that 'something' being the same sort of occurrence that happened in the very beginning of creation?


I don't understand the questions. Are you referring to the individual creation of each person at the moment of conception?
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Sat 28 Feb, 2009 11:00 am
@Pathfinder,
Pathfinder wrote:
i see, so certain encounters that appear to continue popping into your focus draw you to conclude that destiny is trying to get yo to discover something in particular?


I wouldn't put it quite that way. I don't think of destiny as an actor. I think destiny only makes sense when it is related to actors. Thus my destiny, my destination in the largest possible sense. The destiny of a nation, etc. All I know for sure is that I am being afforded the opportunity to learn. I have been told that such opportunities are guided by higher powers. (Ah! And what might they be?)

Pathfinder wrote:
I am not sure whether or not this can be considered creating your own destiny though, if you are actually experiencing something that is preconceived by some higher power or force. If you are following some sort of guide, than are you not living in something else's creation?


Not entirely one way or the other, in my mind. I think I am a co-creator of my destiny. I think of myself as both a created being and co-creator of myself and the world.
 
Dichanthelium
 
Reply Tue 10 Mar, 2009 06:20 pm
@andykelly,
andykelly wrote:
This thread is for the discussion of reincarnation if indeed there is such a thing. Many millions of people all over the world believe in reincarnation from most sects of buddhism to hinduism etc.


I agree. I have been doing a little reading on this topic, and I continue to be astounded by the implications, and the testimony of ancient as well as modern writings.
 
Pathfinder
 
Reply Sun 23 Aug, 2009 05:45 pm
@andykelly,
Isn't considering yourself a co creator of something that you know you had no hand in,(creation), a little bit delusional?
 
 

 
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