Reincarnation

@Doorsopen,

Doorsopen wrote:

I admire your arguments, and hope that we can continue this thread until it has achieved its ultimate purpose...

As is the general purpose of philosophy, it's ultimate purpose is to open our individual minds to rhetoric and allow us to explore new avenues of thought.
In that regard, we've already achieved the purpose.

On another note, if you read the teachings of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, you'll see that he teaches the concepts of reincarnation to a whole new level. The cycle of life begins with thought, and develops into mind body soul, then back into thought. As the thoughts learned throughout the life of the mind body soul develop and take on thoughts of their own; new mind body soul is also created, allowing for a reincarnated soul to split into two or more forms.

This way, when the mind body soul are in the early stages of development, it has focus.

Interesting concepts if you ask me.

@Aristoddler,

how can reincationation not be real?
E=MC2
mass has energy equivalence
matter is made of mass
you are made of matter
what am i missing?
mass has energy equivalence.. mass is energy
you exist wave form and particle form
when your partical form "dies" only to get its particals redistributed through the earth to give energy to other things
the other part of you, the infinite eternal wave part, continues to exist in energy form
it doesnt have eyes or ears or anything like that.. those are particles and exist on a finite level
but it returns to the infinite mix of energy and from that point on we cannot describe what happens physically
but just because there are more people now than before doesnt mean reincarnation doesnt exist, because we are dealing with an infinite continuum of energythe absolute can split itself up as many times as it wishes
you cannot prove these things reasonably though
the act of believing if something is true or not has nothing to do with anything but intuition,
there is no 1 single realm of truth.. well there is.. but no human brain can be capable of understanding because being human means being seporated.. and the truth is basically everyones reality and we are all split up so thats impossable to concieve with a human brain
no matter how much pragmatical logic you think you need to find proof in your reality.. your still comparing evidence towards your intuition in order to change it.. and intuition is not reasonable at all..
we are all left brained and right brained
its wise to gain finite knowledge
but dont forget infinite knowledge either

@andykelly,

L0ck, what is the mass of my soul?

@Aristoddler,

the soul not being a particle does not have any specific mass, the closest thing to your soul having mass is your physical body but again this is not your "soul"
you can look at yourself as a spiritual being (infinite)
or as a physical being (finite)
one part of you can be measured but the other part cannot
now to compare our theorys to our physical surroundings:
you can argu that light is energy and has no particle side to it and so light doesnt have any mass
but we have come to the agreement that the photon is the explination for this
and light does have mass
the photon is the theory of the particle side of light
and light has mass, it just has no resting mass its constantly moving very fast

@andykelly,

The thing about reincarnation for me, is that as a population, for the most part, we are always expanding as a human race, due to medical advances and such. And so whether by evolution or by a divine creator, we must have started out in fewer numbers. So where would the extra souls come from? Can two souls create a third soul during reproduction and this would be a sort of, start-from-scratch soul? And would the "older" souls that had already lived multiple lives be randomly reborn into new bodies along with the "newer" souls? And if that were the case, where or how would the newer souls come to exist?

@andykelly,

good point elizabeth...

the thing is different religions have different views on ur point. like christians would prob say that God decided to create that soul. im a Hindu, and we believe that everything is a manifestation of God, so this new soul is just another one of those manifestations. atheists would prob be like "Who gives a S--t?" i dont know abot bhuddists ppl, cuz bhuddism branched off hinduism, but they might their own view on this matter...

@andykelly,

Quote:

The thing about reincarnation for me, is that as a population, for the most part, we are always expanding as a human race, due to medical advances and such. And so whether by evolution or by a divine creator, we must have started out in fewer numbers. So where would the extra souls come from? Can two souls create a third soul during reproduction and this would be a sort of, start-from-scratch soul? And would the "older" souls that had already lived multiple lives be randomly reborn into new bodies along with the "newer" souls? And if that were the case, where or how would the newer souls come to exist?

hey i think i have a perspective on this to offer
i dont think we should look at the soul as a finite particle
and that means we cant count it
but from now on the word soul will now be replaced with the word "monad"
the absolute has an infinite number of monadic awareness centers
monads are truly qualitative and infinite and seek to absorb quality
theres an infinite number of 'souls'
there is not an infinite number of human beings
so we can assume each human can have an infinite number of monads present but atleast 1 at all times
monads are not of time-space
monads take the form of body-mass to absorb quality expressions from the absolute in order to become more self-aware

@andykelly,

andykelly wrote:

This thread is for the discussion of reincarnation if indeed there is such a thing. Many millions of people all over the world believe in reincarnation from most sects of buddhism to hinduism etc.

I see this topic taken up casually in various threads, but I don't know how extensively it may have been investigated. Since this one actually has the title, I thought I would pitch in an idea.

The concepts of reincarnation and karma can be addressed, like many topics in religion, from a scientific mind set, but I think that approach tends to obscure the deep layers of meaning that are available for discovery. I would say, never mind whether anyone can "prove" any of this scientifically. It's beside the point.

The issue is, what are the lessons that attend this perspective? And I think the lessons have enormous implications. If I imagine, just for the sake of the exercise, that I have lived countless previous lives (as a human being) and that my present incarnation places me in a body and a context that has been determined by the way I lived those previous lives, and that the way I live this life will determine what my next context will be, I think the implications are profound.

Again, I'm not interested in the scientific or philosophical "proofs" against this perspective, so I don't intend to respond to that (though others may, of course). The interesting thing to me is karma. Cause and effect in one one life is endlessly fascinating. To imagine such a thing across countless lives is even more so.

@Dichanthelium,

Just to slide in an opinion here if I might

Reincarnation: Wow, wouldn't that be cool! I've no reason to believe in it, but am fascinated by the prospect.

Thanks

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

Just to slide in an opinion here if I might

Reincarnation: Wow, wouldn't that be cool! I've no reason to believe in it, but am fascinated by the prospect.

Thanks

What would make you believe it possible and what do you think the consequences would be? I have had personal experiences that have made me think it possible, so i have tried making the possibility logical. I have excluded god from the equation, created a half way house for the soul and determined the reason for this experience of life.I can see it could be just as natural as other aspects of existance only one is physical and the other ethereal.I must add it is only musing because of my experiences and no way am i attempting to convince you.

@xris,

xris wrote:

What would make you believe it possible and what do you think the consequences would be? I have had personal experiences that have made me think it possible, so i have tried making the possibility logical. I have excluded god from the equation, created a half way house for the soul and determined the reason for this experience of life.I can see it could be just as natural as other aspects of existance only one is physical and the other ethereal.I must add it is only musing because of my experiences and no way am i attempting to convince you.

Hey Xris,

No worries. I didn't say I don't think it's possible - just that I don't believe it is or will.

Thanks

@Khethil,

Khethil wrote:

Just to slide in an opinion here if I might

Reincarnation: Wow, wouldn't that be cool! I've no reason to believe in it, but am fascinated by the prospect.

Thanks

It is a stimulating idea, even if you entertain it merely for the sake of broadening your view of human experience. Of course, it only makes sense within the context of a broader world view.

Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that I will be reborn some time shortly after I die. If I have cultivated virtue during this life, I will reap the benefits in my next life. Sounds like it could become a selfish preoccupation, but, in fact, one of the virtues is selflessness. So, presumably, the wisest and best and least egotistical people around us have been practicing wisdom and goodness for a long time--many lifetimes. The possibility of learning from someone like that, who has the benefit of many lifetimes of learning is intriguing.

Also, I have heard that such advanced individuals can develop the ability to remember previous lives, which allows them to gain an even deeper understanding of why they are in their current circumstances. Such insights presumably provide them greater opportunity to grow toward even greater levels of perfection.

And to become a perfect human being may be the ultimate and truest goal of religion.

@Dichanthelium,

Sorry but i cant go for this elitist attitude it encourages the individual to think him self innately better than the next. If it taught anything it would be humility. Why cant this existance be just what it is an experience. If you assume life is some learning curve what in heavens name do we acquire in this other existance from which these souls emanate.With your terms of reference certain babies would be talking six languages before they could walk.Do souls choose their point of entry? can we choose a middle class family with a good education to look forward to?or is it more likely we will end up every time in a poor district of Calcutta and only learn how to survive.

@xris,

xris wrote:

Sorry but i cant go for this elitist attitude it encourages the individual to think him self innately better than the next. If it taught anything it would be humility. Why cant this existance be just what it is an experience. If you assume life is some learning curve what in heavens name do we acquire in this other existance from which these souls emanate.With your terms of reference certain babies would be talking six languages before they could walk.Do souls choose their point of entry? can we choose a middle class family with a good education to look forward to?or is it more likely we will end up every time in a poor district of Calcutta and only learn how to survive.

xris, sounds like you are not interested in learning about this. You post merely to try to refute. But your refutations are not based on understanding. If you want to take it one step at a time, I will be happy to try to do that with you. Start with one question, or one proposition. Alternatively, you could read up on the topic, then return to it when you understand it a bit more.

@Dichanthelium,

Dichanthelium wrote:

xris, sounds like you are not interested in learning about this. You post merely to try to refute. But your refutations are not based on understanding. If you want to take it one step at a time, I will be happy to try to do that with you. Start with one question, or one proposition. Alternatively, you could read up on the topic, then return to it when you understand it a bit more.

Is that learning facts or suppositions? If you read up on such subjects your reading others propositions not facts.You have concluded by others supposing that certain souls are superior to those who may be on their first visit. This is what i am disputing, i should know because i have been reborn fifty times.

@Dichanthelium,

Dichanthelium wrote:

It is a stimulating idea, even if you...

Yes, and those possibilities have some very comforting (and intriguing) prospects. I'm assuming there are different iterations of the Reincarnation ideal; I suppose that the end-game of it being a good or bad thing would depend on that iteration's particular effects (coupled with the ethics of whomever's doing the judging, of course).

Neat stuff. And there's nothing wrong with musing about such possibilities (ah to dream!).

Thanks

@andykelly,

As much as I would love for reincarnation to be a possibility, it seems to defy logic of how life works. Living things have life spans where they are born and then die. Afterward, bodies decompose. I just don't see how anything from us other than the matter we are composed of survives beyond the limitations of our bodies. Not to mention somethings defy explanation. How would reincarnation work if there are far more births than deaths? How does our soul--if that even exists--travel to the next vehicle? While it would be nice to try life again and do things a little differently, I would rather go through this one living it out, than doing things to prepare for another that I may, but probably will not have.

@Theaetetus,

Theaetetus wrote:

As much as I would love for reincarnation to be a possibility, it seems to defy logic of how life works. Living things have life spans where they are born and then die. Afterward, bodies decompose. I just don't see how anything from us other than the matter we are composed of survives beyond the limitations of our bodies. Not to mention somethings defy explanation. How would reincarnation work if there are far more births than deaths? How does our soul--if that even exists--travel to the next vehicle? While it would be nice to try life again and do things a little differently, I would rather go through this one living it out, than doing things to prepare for another that I may, but probably will not have.

Its down to belief and nothing more.

@xris,

xris wrote:

Its down to belief and nothing more.

So if I believe, it will happen?

@Theaetetus,

The growing human population does not defy reincarnation: typically, reincarnation is thought of as something experienced by all sentient beings, not just humans.

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