Judaism states that Jesus was just a nice Jewish boy

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Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 01:03 am
@Arjuna,
As I recall, Zionism began as a secular movement - mostly young, liberal Jews without any serious state building intentions.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 03:53 am
@William,
William;90774 wrote:
It is not Jesus, it is the words that were spoke. It matters not who spoke them. The issue of his martyrdom is why we remember them. Did he exist? Well somebody did or the words wouldn't exist, would they? The words spoke a truth that could not be denied in their core meaning. So if we can not validate the man, the words mean nothing? How so very absurd that is.

Now let's look at it logically. If a man existed no matter what his name was, but in keeping with the thread let's call him Jesus. Now let's try to put together the 18 years there is no record of him. What could he have been doing in those 18 years? Perhaps gathering information and writing all that he learned. It is also known he was a very wise man and for what is written to have actually happen to a man of wisdom, makes no sense whatsoever. If he were indeed that wise he would have left the book in a place of safe keeping knowing he who found it would indeed know how to understand the message within it. It would never be understood in those times in which it was written as it was too safely hidden, or so he thought anyway.

Now suppose he who found this book, used it for their own benefit and adopted it as their own who was not so wise. Such is depicted in the search of the HOLY GRAIL and EXCALIBUR and interpreted it wrongly and used the message therein selfishly as to acquire power for himself as being something he wasn't but the words, in there truth, would offer him fame. As the wise man who wrote the book would know unless it be found by an honorable man who would interpret there words wisely, it would surely cause the death of he not so honorable. But the words were so true they would live long after.

Now put that bee in your bonnet and let it buzz around for a little while.

William


Hi William,

You sum up so nicely the reason for this thread Smile. Demoting Jesus down to an insigficant person of no imporatance makes no sense to me when one considers his colossal impact of human history and the lives of nearly every living person on the planet from time to time.

An obscure little Jewish boy would have been forgotten by the time his great grandchildren were born; yet the words of Jesus affect/effect the very way we use our language.

Yet this supposed non-existent person strides down the annals of history like a colossus. How could such a person be said to be a fiction of someone imagination. Almost 3 billion people believe the truth of his words many even insist he is God incarnate. "Yet Judaism say all he was was a nice young Jewish boy of no importance" He came to his own people and his people knew him not

Long after we have put off this mortal frame his words will continue to effect mankind in one way of the other
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 05:23 am
@Alan McDougall,
"Yet Judaism say all he was was a nice young Jewish boy of no importance."

Bit of a strawman isn't it?

A Rabbi is not "Judaism".

Even if a Rabbi was "Judaism" - you're inferring that he thought Jesus was of no import - because those aren't his actual words. "Unremarkable" might just mean "mundane" in the context of discussing whether there was anything supernatural or not about Jesus.

So that's wrong.

It's probably wrong twice.

"He came to his own people and his people knew him not"

Aside from his disciples, early converts and followers, building into a significant cult, growing beyond a cult, etc, etc...

Just like every other successful prophet in history.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 05:54 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;90832 wrote:
"Yet Judaism say all he was was a nice young Jewish boy of no importance."

Bit of a strawman isn't it?

A Rabbi is not "Judaism".

Even if a Rabbi was "Judaism" - you're inferring that he thought Jesus was of no import - because those aren't his actual words. "Unremarkable" might just mean "mundane" in the context of discussing whether there was anything supernatural or not about Jesus.

So that's wrong.

It's probably wrong twice.

"He came to his own people and his people knew him not"

Aside from his disciples, early converts and followers, building into a significant cult, growing beyond a cult, etc, etc...

Just like every other successful prophet in history.


I simply can not agree with your simplification of a very complex person and Rabbi does equate to modern Judaism. My mother was Jewish and I am well versed in Judaism.

There was only one prophet in all of history that became as significant and influential and he was Mohammed
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 07:12 am
@Alan McDougall,
It was you doing the simplifying. You claim (based on the thread title alone) that some rabbi stands for Judaism at large. I'm not actually making any claims about what I infer from his intent. I think it would be silly to do so based on your report of a radio show I wasn't listening to.

My mother's a lassez faire presbyterian, but even I can distinguish between a Jewish religious leader (a rabbi) and those who belong to the Jewish religious/cultural gestalt (Judaism). Whoever this anonymous Rabbi was his opinion isn't necessarily shared by Jewish people at large, and his opinion need not be as disparaging as you seem to be trying to paint it.

If he really thinks Jesus was a non-entity in terms of history then he's in small company. If he's claiming that Jesus is a spiritual non-entity then so what? Why would Jewish people venerate someone who isn't part of their body of spiritual belief? It's like a Sikh claiming "goodness me, Hindus think there's nothing special about Guru Nanak!"

As for Mohammed, the phrase "he came to his own people and his people knew him not" can also be applied - there were plenty of Meccans who opposed Islam in the early days, he didn't live to see a comprehensive acceptance of his faith (and such acceptance has yet to happen and probably never will).
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 07:24 am
@Alan McDougall,
See how so very confusing it gets when the words that wise man wrote can be when they fall into the hands of he who has no idea of what they mean and interpret's them wrongly to appease an ignorance that is not so wise. Ah, like the rotten apple that decays the entire barrel. Where do you think that first apple tree came from? You see it's all in there, you just have to have the wisdom to interpret it correctly. We have no idea of all that happen yesterday, much less that which happened thousands of years ago. But we keep digging don't we, and those holes we are digging are called "graves".

William
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 07:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
I thinks what happens today is the most important!
Thanks.
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 07:52 am
@Alan McDougall,
Six years ago Dan Brown wrote a book called THE DeVINCI CODE as he tried to put more pieces of this confusing puzzle together and it was considered a mystery-detective-fiction novel. The word novel indicates it separation from that conventional wisdom of that which we "know?" to be "true". Like many other books that we think are real and auto-biographical to be true, yet subject to the interpretation of he who reads them?

Now Dan, in his effort to put the pieces together espoused Jesus was indeed married, and for a man of God, to know God, would make a lot more sense as he tried to make the pieces of the puzzle fit. Though I don't agree with all he wrote, I can find similarities in how we both think. Call it a "common sense". Does that wise man, I spoke of earlier, who wrote that book have descendent's alive today? Hmmm? Perhaps. Would his name be Jesus? Perhaps, but what if it were Adam? Hmmm?

Is that bee's buzzing getting a little more annoying or is it becoming more resonant?

William
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 08:02 am
@William,
William;90864 wrote:
it was considered a mystery-detective-fiction novel.

Or poorly written cod-fantasy.
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 09:54 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;90867 wrote:
Or poorly written cod-fantasy.


Of course, Dave. If that is how you interpreted it; it works for you, then who is it that should question that? I won't!

William
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 09:58 am
@Alan McDougall,
Lol Willaim, you know I never did read that book. It looked good but is it a load of rubbish?
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 09:58 am
@William,
William;90911 wrote:
Of course, Dave. If that is how you interpreted it; it works for you, then who is it that should question that? I won't!

William


I just find it odd the most central female role in his life was regarded as a "whore". I find that a bit odd. But of course, again, I don't see it your way.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 09:59 am
@William,
William;90911 wrote:
Of course, Dave. If that is how you interpreted it; it works for you...

Works for a great deal of historians and literary critics too.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:00 am
@Alan McDougall,
You guys crack me up.
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:10 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;90913 wrote:
Lol Willaim, you know I never did read that book. It looked a load of rubbish.


You know Caroline, I think most would say that. It is not a "simple" read. It is one of he most confusing books ever written, IMO. And it was the first one ever printed, if history is correct; for it can be said, even "that history was written by those who have hanged heroes". (BRAVEHEART)

William
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:14 am
@Alan McDougall,
I think she's talking about the Da Vinci Code, which was not the first printed book but is most certainly a simple read.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:15 am
@Alan McDougall,
I thought the Davinci Code was fiction?

---------- Post added 09-17-2009 at 11:15 AM ----------

Lol Dave!............

---------- Post added 09-17-2009 at 11:16 AM ----------

What book is William talking about then?
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:17 am
@Alan McDougall,
Gutenburg press bible, I should think.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:18 am
@Alan McDougall,
Ahh ok, well a lot of lessons in the bible, like Love Thy Neighbour, isn't that what Jesus said?
 
William
 
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 10:25 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;90924 wrote:
I thought the Davinci Code was fiction?

---------- Post added 09-17-2009 at 11:15 AM ----------

Lol Dave!............

---------- Post added 09-17-2009 at 11:16 AM ----------

What book is William talking about then?


I was talking about the Bible. I guess we got our wires a little crossed, The DaVinci Code was no piece of cake, either. Both books were written and subject to interpretation. There is a lot in the Bible I can find similarities with, just as the DaVinci code did.

William
 
 

 
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