Angel soul?

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Reply Sat 26 Dec, 2009 10:51 pm
Running from the assumption we/man have 'a' soul because we must experience it personaly to know it and God is there.

Do angels have 'a' soul?
(Is there a distinction between soul and spirit?)

Do angels have choice or at the least think they do?
Do angels think?
(Is mans soul bound up only in his free will and choice?)

What can an angel ever own?
(Do we own our soul and ourself and this is why there was divide instigated by God to show that we own something angels never could, free will?
Is this why Lucifer is so put out, it has no choice even now?)

Please give reference here of mythology including Scripture and Poetry story tellings of angels and what their being is and what for.
What are they made up of?
Not necessarily all about Lucifer although the prime/prolific example.
Because the 'devil' was created to give angels the only chioce they could hold, angel love, devil hate?
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 08:16 am
@sometime sun,
this is a really broad subject, and i know i cant really give references in scriptures...at least not off the top of my head. but i think i could find some later, if that's ok.

i would answer this in two ways-first according to scriptures or revelations in the muslim tradition. i can find references in the quran later for you. it is written that the angels existed before humanity and they are simple creatures whose existence is made only of adoring their creator. if they are asked to do anything by Him they would. lucifer was not an angel according to the quran but a jinn-the jinn are a race of beings that live among men and can observe us and often try to use us and influence us to do things that they have some interest in. we cannot see them of course. jinns also have free will and may choose to follow their creator or oppose Him, which is what lucifer is said to have done. (in the quran his name is iblis) the jinn are made of both good and bad, ethical and unethical beings. iblis was given freedom to tempt human beings from the path of right, but he was not given the power to force anyone to follow him. in other words, i think the concept of free will means less if there is no wrong thing to choose...

in the second way, the less than literal translation of revelations have produced more subtle ideas. one of the things i have read in some sufi papers is that each soul as it radiates from the Source first becomes an angel being and may or may not go any further than that. the angels are made of light or as i would think of them frequencies of either light or sound, and this vehicle is taken by them to use in that realm where it is necessary. if it does go on further, it will next come to the astral plane, which is where the jinn exist, who are more creatures of mind. they have bodies, but not physical like ours-they have bodies like we do in our dreams. some beings remain there. and some proceed all the way to earth becoming human. it is a matter of manifestation. as an analogy you can think of it as a fountain with droplets rising out of the pond and some going much higher than others.

in that case, we are a composite of these three aspects, spirit, mind and body. we are as far from the source as it is possible to be and that is why we have such a hard time remembering it. i could also get some quotes for you on that if you like.

as to the questions left out of what i wrote above, these thoughts come to mind:
angels in either case would not care to own anything and there is nothing there where they are for them to own.

i dont think there is any difference in the word soul or spirit in the sense that i am thinking of it. we dont have souls, we are souls. we have minds and we have bodies. at the point of physical death we give up the body to the plane from which we donned it and return to the astral plane. when our time is up there, as the water drops in the fountain return to the source depending on the strength with which they first were propelled, we will leave our mental faculties in that realm where we donned them and return to the angelic plane until finally giving up our angelic bodies of light and being reabsorbed in the Source.

some things are not mentioned as yet in any traditions i have read. for instance, what will happen to lucifer? the time will come (and probably did a long time ago) that he will no longer be able to continue on in the astral plane ... where do you think he will go? the answer seems logical to me, but i have a strange sense of logic i think. i really dont think there is any big punishment. i think each aspect of the source (which thinks itself to be an individual entity) will eventually realize what it is and see all the implications of every act it has ever committed. i think that is where the stories of purgatory and hell have come from. can you imagine a greater punishment for anyone than to actually understand how much they have hurt not only themselves but others? no reference for this, just something i thought about...
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 05:43 pm
@salima,
Thank you Salima, i will get back to you with many thoughts and hoped for story for you soon if not tomorrow, please do take your time and anything everything you find i would be most glad of.
You are especially beautiful tonight

Found tonight; 'fools rush in where angels fear to tread' Angels fear? destinctly fools holdings/heldings?
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 12:42 am
@sometime sun,
hello sometime-
i want to explain that i am citing these sources because they are available to me and i have studied them at length. of course there will be references to angels in all so many traditions, and it would be nice if we could get together a lot of different ones and see which ideas are common to all-then using them as a base to try and make up an idea of what angels might actually be. i mean there certainly must be angels, since they have been a recurring vision for a long time in human experience, but the question is what exactly are they. i will come back with some of my own ideas after i have quoted some sources.

first, as a resource i would mention the prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) and those saying s of his which are called ahadith. these are strictly documented and traced back to the source, verified and recorded and kept as a supplement to our knowledge. i will give two examples here:

According to Ibn Hajar, Sa'id bin al-Musayyab, "The angels are neither male nor female. They neither eat nor drink. They do not marry nor have children."
The Prophet (PBUH) in sound hadith said, "The angels were created from light, the jinn were created from fire. Man was created from what has been described to you." (Muslim)

i mention these first because they are answers given in human terms to people who ask questions. but it is important to remember that Mohammad was a highly endowed human being who experienced various planes of existence that most people will not, and what he experienced there was difficult to express in terms that have evolved through time on this tiny realm. also the people he was speaking to had a limited capacity of understanding. i dont mean to belittle these people, they were extremely pious, righteous and brave, but they were of an earlier time in history than modern man, and further along than people at the time of Jesus. Jesus as you probably know spoke almost entirely in parables, and i would take a lot of the ahadith to be also in the form of parables.

additionally there are many references in the Quran. the Quran is a book of revelations that have many layers of meanings beyond the literal. not being able to read it in arabic is also a problem, and one would have to be a scholar of history because languages change over time, in order to understand even the literal meaning exactly. but possibly some deeper mystical meanings can be inferred from the english translation.

QURAN
"Those who are before him are not scornful of worshipping Him, nor do they tire or get bored. They glorify Him night and Day: they do not halt."
(Qur'an 21:19-20)


"They are honoured servants, who do not precede Him in speech, and they act according to His command. He knows what is ahead of them, and they do not intercede, except for those whom He approves."
(Qur'an 21:26-27)


"Praise be to Allah, the Originator of the Heavens and the Earth, the creator of angels having wings - two, three and four."
(Qur'an 35:1)

it is lengthy to go on, but here is a link with a whole page of specific answers to questions about angels:
Muttaqun OnLine - Angels: According to Quran and Sunnah

i think that is a long enough post for now, i will come back again with references from sufi esoteric teaching, and finally some of my own thoughts.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 07:13 am
@salima,
Salima: With your first post, I followed every phrase with an amen.

Just along the lines of earthiness: our image of angels having wings can be tied to pictures of two greek gods: Hypnos and Thanatos, twin sons of Night.
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 07:33 am
@sometime sun,
here are some references from Hazrat Inayat Khan. he was the founder of the Sufi Order of the West and brought his teachings to europe and america. he died in 1927.

"The soul, which is the ray of the divine Sun in one sphere, the sphere in which it does not touch any earthly being, is called Malak or angel. Therefore every soul passes through the angelic heavens; in other words, every soul is an angel before it touches the earthly plane. The angels it is who become human beings; and those who do not become human beings, remain angels. The human being, therefore, is a grown-up angel; or an angel is a soul who has not grown sufficiently. Infants who come on earth with their angelic qualities, and sometimes pass away without having experienced the life of the grown-up man, show us the picture of the original condition of the soul.


"The idea that the angels are nearer to God is right according to this doctrine. Souls who have not journeyed farther are naturally close to the divine Spirit; they are angels. Someone asked the Prophet why man was greater than the angels; man, who causes all the bloodshed on the earth, while the angels are always occupied in the praise of God. It is said in the Qur'an that the angels knew nothing of the earth; they knew God, and so they occupied themselves with God; but man is greater, for when he comes on earth he has much in the world to be occupied with, and still he pursues God. That angelic sphere is free from passions and emotions which are the source of all wrong and sin; souls pure of all greed and desires given by the denseness of earth are angels who know nothing else but happiness; for happiness is the real nature of the soul."


"The soul may be likened to a ray of the sun; so the souls of the angels, being not adorned with a physical garb, are as flames themselves. The scriptures therefore say that the angels are made of Nur or light; Nur is specially that light which comes from the divine Sun, the spirit of God. All souls are made of that essence which is the essence of the whole manifestation; and the quality of that essence is that it absorbs all that is around it, and in time develops so that it will emerge into its own element, which is the divine."


"It is mentioned in the ancient scriptures that angels came with messages to the prophets of Beni Israel;but the explanation of this from the metaphysical point of view is quite different from what an ordinary person would imagine. No man on earth is capable of communicating with the angels in heaven, nor is an angel from heaven inclined to communicate with man. But in the exceptional lives of the prophets what happens is, that they rise above all the planes which keep man removed from the angelic heavens, and by doing so they are able to touch these heavens. And being charged with the ever-glowing fire of inspiration from the angelic spheres, where they come into touch with angels, they descend to the plane of the earth; and it is then that their words become tongues of flame, as spoken of in the scriptures. This means that every word of theirs becomes a torch given into the hands of those who listen, to illuminate their hearts through life. Specially is this so in the lives of the Great Ones who have given a divine message, a religion, to the world; their souls have never been disconnected in any way with the angelic world; and it is this current, which linked their souls with the souls of the angels, that always kept them in contact with both heaven and earth. The soul of the Prophet therefore is a link between heaven and earth; it is a medium by which God's Message can be received."


The Message Vol I, the Soul Whence and Whither
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 09:35 am
@sometime sun,
some of my own thoughts are what follows:


on the basis of what I have read through these sources, angels are agents that do god's will in creation. they were in existence before mankind. there are specific duties-there is an angel of death, angel of mercy, angels of elements, etc. they enforce the laws of the entire cosmos, not only those of the natural world we see. in that case, perhaps they rather than enforcing the laws actually are the laws.
along those lines, I thought perhaps one might say gravity is an angel...magnetism is an angel...and that they may have been concepts that arose in the mind of god for the purpose of order and structure. what use would there be for creating something without order? it would only fall to ruin through chaos and self destruct.


that may be something totally apart from the concept of the angel-soul. instead it could be something that was commonly given the name angels so that people could conceive their purpose. so the angel souls may indeed be appreciating the splendor of the absolute since they can perceive it more clearly than we can, in ways that would be thought of by mortal beings as praise and worship. I dont think they would be the same kind of angels that are serving as elements of nature (water, fire, etc).


so what of the stories of angels who people claim have come to earth to help mankind from time to time? they could be some other phenomena which people call angels because they were not aware of any other beings. I do find it interesting that there is no mention (as far as I am aware) of jinn in christian or judaic writings. maybe I am wrong on that...?
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 02:45 pm
@salima,
I find it a strange concept of the believers that they can examine the science of man with such scrutiny but accept the words of scripture with no questions of doubt. I can understand the reasoning but the certainty is hard to fathom.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 05:23 pm
@salima,
salima;114882 wrote:
I do find it interesting that there is no mention (as far as I am aware) of jinn in christian or judaic writings. maybe I am wrong on that...?
It seems like Christian "spirits" can be either good or evil. An evil spirit might be blamed for disease, mental or otherwise. In the old days a general rule was that you don't actually see good spirits. If you actually see the being, that means it's bad.

So when the apostles saw a being walking on the water toward their boat, they assumed it was a bad spirit. Calling that a bad jinn would be just a matter of wording. As it turned out, the being said, "It's me! Jesus!" Peter now shows his tendency to doubt and tests the being to see if it really is Jesus... with astonishing results.

When Hamlet sees his dead father it's the same thing: because he actually saw the being, there's reason to believe it might be an evil spirit taking on the appearance of Hamlet's father for some mischievous reason.

And when Joan of Arc was on trial, the prosecutors attempted to draw out of her a statement that she actually saw Michael. This would support the view that she was in contact with evil spirits. Being a simple peasant girl, she wouldn't have known the purpose of the line of questioning. She never said she actually saw him, but that the nature of her contact with him was a private matter. Amazingly, the transcript of her trial still exists.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 06:52 pm
@xris,
xris;114949 wrote:
I find it a strange concept of the believers that they can examine the science of man with such scrutiny but accept the words of scripture with no questions of doubt. I can understand the reasoning but the certainty is hard to fathom.


The certainty comes from the doubt being there in those words, doubt described, the Scriptures just about tell you how to doubt (not experience but to make sense) and what it is for and how to overcome it.
Field guide to living and dying, the first best and most comprehensive.
I study Scripture no differently than i do science, but Scripture will tell me more of my being and going than science ever will allow me to experience.
Science is the body and the mind.
Scripture is the body the mind and the spirit/soul. Science will never teach me as much as faith can will and does.
I question Scripture as i do science but the answers that science gives are not interpretation, does not require much of me, science is not the why it is the what.
Scripture requires all of my attention not just my acceptance.
Scripture is up to the reader experiencer, you find the right words as much as they are given, it is a truth and balance that you have to find within yourself, learn how to read, not as so much science does insist, with scripture i have choice more than science gives me.

---------- Post added 12-29-2009 at 01:39 AM ----------

Salima post 2#;
So in the mUslim tradition when was lucipher created, was it as so many believe the first being, first light (fire), first creature, was this jinn the first creation? Was it lucifer angel before jinn?
If not what was Gods first creation creature out side of Gods created 'self' being (which some might still only recognise as recent).

Angels have wings where we have free-will.

So the jinn ar einquisitive where the angels are not?

So the jinn had the first free-will or were they allowed transformed because they saw we had it first?

Surely they may have even been created with the purpose to oppose, not the choice, would God create something that God directed to oppose?
Surley nothing does what it is not created for?
If so did God make a mistake? And surely no man truely opposes God?
I dont understand why it or any man does.
How could God create something such as free-will and not have predicted opposition.
But God sees computed the future surely God must have known the opposing force, simple that the cause of things could be both positive and negative. Did God create or at least allow the bad 'evil' of the all creation?

You are not a bad man if you not choose good?
Is there placement where of man and creatures free-will a place where one can choose not good or bad?
Are you always a good creation or else always a bad creation.

Without bad there is no choice therefore no free-will.
Is there a choice to be as the angels are in part to be neither for you cannot truely be good unless the chance for bad?

So we truely did not take or steal free-will, it was always to be curse or salvation?

There are no angels who have chosen to be good.

Or like popular present mythologising, we can aspire and obtain angel-hood? Going up, no coming down, ranked?

The jinn experience their bodies through our actions, throught the mind they are bried in, dug their little hole.
Or is our own demons our own free-will breaking? FREE-will, somehting for the good.

Were some humans once angels and have risen or dropped in rank?

Can anything that has free-will ever grow fade to be with free-will?

We dont 'have' souls but we do have that which makes us aware of 'it'.
I have my understanding of what soul is, and in this way have access to the experience not just possessed as the angels are.
Possessed are the angels?
They are souls but dont experience it, they dont 'have' it as we by knowledge and free-will have our experienc eof it.
Our minds and bodies have, our spirit has no need to own anything.

At our point of departure from the body also lose our minds?
No as you say, to wait in the astral, sheol.
Is astral only ever after life or can it be during?
The angelic plane; are soul again without question, purification, distillation, keep God compant till the end.

If it is the job and eventuality of all things to be with God (eventually) (all roads lead there) then will not lucipher also be led back to the ultimate beginning before time and need for truth (need then for truths opposition) when all other things are done in the universe, where we are done and completed will not Lucipher be led back to God?
Will God finality have lucipher knock upon His door asking for Gods presence and forgiveness?

Will God forgive the devil if it ever asks?

Where do i thing lucipher will go or has gone?
You would thin k that becoming a man would be restricted to God?
And if the devil were ot become a man, that man would have to die and go somewhere else.
Maybe the devil is trapped in a hell all of its own without chance of a purgatory?
Rising through the ranks of hell to once again be divine.
Maybe because the devil cant escape, it is the only thing that can call hell 'home'.

God as man was when God became an individual, became the All he had created,
before just a Father an entity which can have many personality, Father is many but not All,
before all was simplt Ghost or Spirit with nothing to do or be because there was just the ONE.

I agree completely, especially with realisation that because we all learn even eternally, even if still needed after death in apart of the astral (heaven is for those who get there and have learned how to be there) but get there we all need to and GET THERE WE ALL SHALL.
We will all learn what it is to be true to find truth because we have the eternity to do it.

Thanks and will have some angel references for you tomorrow, hopefuly.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 03:52 am
@sometime sun,
I'm glad you are happy with your reasoning but from my perspective it has little do with logical examination but everything to do with faith driven desires. Without scriptures you have nothing.
 
salima
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 07:18 am
@sometime sun,
sometime-
you have given me a lot to ponder, i will work on organizing a reply. looking forward to your references.
salima
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:32 am
@xris,
xris;115243 wrote:
I'm glad you are happy with your reasoning but from my perspective it has little do with logical examination but everything to do with faith driven desires. Without scriptures you have nothing.
Faith isn't really based on scriptures is it?
 
salima
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 09:46 am
@sometime sun,
I will try to combine my own personal speculations with literal translations and subliminal meanings as suggested in esotericism. these ideas are what I have gathered from all that I have studied so far within the writings of islam. however, mysticism (esotericism) transcends all religions, in fact precedes them; the names of separate branches of mysticism are only for the purpose of names used within various cultures or traditions to reference universal creatures and events.

I believe it could be possible that the Angels referred to were necessary instruments to impose order upon creation; they had to be first. since the angels who enforce the law and order must begin their work there, it is called the angelic realm. I would suggest that they may be no more than thoughtforms of the absolute mind, but infinitely powerful.

it is suggested that, probably responding to ideas or intentions in the absolute mind, individual rays or beams issued forth from the Source becoming what was congruent with the realm through which they passed. the closest area to the source may be thought of as the angelic realm, and those beams of light which progress no further from the source have also been called angels. these are beings made of light or vibrations who are very similar to each other in nature and have no desires or needs. they are so impressed with the source that they cannot remove their attention from it. these beings can cause no harm and do no wrong. this probably corresponds to what some people call the soul, indeed it is a more appropriate name. it is true, they did not choose to be what they are, therefore they deserve no credit.

some rays or beams that leave the source are propelled further into a realm of mind which some call the astral plane. these creatures now don an ethereal body of the mind, and they are able to do whatever we do in dreams. they may be benevolent or malignant, they have desires. however, they are also a being of light at the same time, as all realms are superimposed upon each other, and the innermost part of humanity is an angelic being of light. as iblis or lucifer is thought to be a jinn rather than an angel, this refers to that portion of these beings who used their minds to entertain thoughts of harm, deceit, and this is the realm from which not only the best but the worst of man originates. here is where art and music are born. here is where creation begins to deserve its consequences.

and finally those rays or beams that were projected with the fullest force progress to the physical realm where they become more limited and separated from their source, though there is no real separation. as each person has a body, a mind and a soul or inner being, each person on earth lives simultaneously in these three realms, but are usually aware of nothing but the physical. it doesnt seem to me that an overlord or god would choose this configuration for the purpose of checks and balances or opponents, perpetrators, victims etc. but that it would be more a matter of following the foundation of laws that were set up before creation. once again, it seems to me that justice, wisdom, mercy, etc would be some of the original Angels or Laws set up to govern creation, and that there would not be any need for a judgment punishment and reward from the creator/source. the beams or rays or souls which emerge from the source are in fact the source. would you punish your teeth for biting your tongue?

my next post will be some ideas on the return trip back to the source...
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:21 am
@salima,
I've also come across the idea that an angel can also come up from the earth instead of coming downward... So a certain angel is the living expression of a certain aspect of humanity. It knows it's created from the feelings and thoughts of humans.

So imagine an entity that looks like an insect. It's made of all the feelings people have about bugs. It has its own consciousness, but its substance is coming from us. It's actually older than any of us though, since it comes from feelings over thousands of years. It means no harm, and the proper thing to do is wish it well.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 12:10 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;115276 wrote:
Faith isn't really based on scriptures is it?
So what is it based on? A man who never read one line of scripture would never imagine the concept of Angels or Jinns.

This is listed in the mythological section , was that mistake? Myths are created from the fear of man and his imagination and can be confirmed by script to encourage the believers to abide by the faiths dogmatic demands. Once I was a child who imagined all types of horrors invaded my bedroom but by reason they disappeared.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 12:19 pm
@xris,
xris;115323 wrote:
So what is it based on? A man who never read one line of scripture would never imagine the concept of Angels or Jinns.

This is listed in the mythological section , was that mistake? Myths are created from the fear of man and his imagination and can be confirmed by script to encourage the believers to abide by the faiths dogmatic demands. Once I was a child who imagined all types of horrors invaded my bedroom but by reason they disappeared.
Xris, I think I know you well enough to say you already know what angels are, you just don't call it that. You have direct experience of it, and you think naming it only leads to people being pushed up against a wall and forced to declare a bunch of baloney they don't believe, when it only had to do with recognition of life in the first place. And you're right.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 03:32 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;114851 wrote:
Salima: With your first post, I followed every phrase with an amen.

Just along the lines of earthiness: our image of angels having wings can be tied to pictures of two greek gods: Hypnos and Thanatos, twin sons of Night.


Yes and the halo used to be horns in interpretation and art.

---------- Post added 12-29-2009 at 10:21 PM ----------

Arjuna;115037 wrote:
It seems like Christian "spirits" can be either good or evil. An evil spirit might be blamed for disease, mental or otherwise. In the old days a general rule was that you don't actually see good spirits. If you actually see the being, that means it's bad.

So when the apostles saw a being walking on the water toward their boat, they assumed it was a bad spirit. Calling that a bad jinn would be just a matter of wording. As it turned out, the being said, "It's me! Jesus!" Peter now shows his tendency to doubt and tests the being to see if it really is Jesus... with astonishing results.

When Hamlet sees his dead father it's the same thing: because he actually saw the being, there's reason to believe it might be an evil spirit taking on the appearance of Hamlet's father for some mischievous reason.

And when Joan of Arc was on trial, the prosecutors attempted to draw out of her a statement that she actually saw Michael. This would support the view that she was in contact with evil spirits. Being a simple peasant girl, she wouldn't have known the purpose of the line of questioning. She never said she actually saw him, but that the nature of her contact with him was a private matter. Amazingly, the transcript of her trial still exists.



There is contact with spirit beings and spirits of men, to see the spirits of dead men was often bubbed as evil because any good spirit knows that they must go down and wait, as in the example of the witch of Endor pulling up Samuel, any spirit that roams is often seen as the uncontented because they do not wish to wait for God to come fetch them, or they learn how to go onto higher levels, which is still suspect in the Christian tradition because we all will wait untill the end of things, no going up or going down, no rising the ranks of understanding and attaining heaven before the end, just still and waiting and sleeping until God comes for us.
Therefore those who do not be still and wait are unfaithful and without the rest and place of God,
As to spying the angels of the elements, the spirits or air and ice this is a nature bias because these beings are said to work in accordance with the devil because they have no place in heaven or hell, but i would rather think of them as Salima has described that they are angels of rank and purpose and duty to the things that keep the world running, we could become if rising throught he ranks a spirit or angels of the wooded tree, the balancers if you will, the spirit of the wood could just as easily be an angel and those seeing them are usually working up[on a higher level of consciousness so they are able to view these worker angels who keep nature in its balance for the better of all mankind and what mans action are upon this world.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 05:48 pm
@sometime sun,
Salima i am working from the Holy Bible here tonight, i would love it if anyone could offer up any other reliabilities of what angels are such as Miltons Paradise Lost has much to say on angels but this is for those who are not just content of the beauty and originality of the Scriptures.

Ex 23:20-21 "See I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion sinc emy Name is in him.

Calls the angels him but i agree that angels have no sex, it is generalisation, i like this because it also in some sense says that angels have rank enough to not forgive men for their transgressions against God.

Jdg 13:15-16 Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, "We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you"
The angel of the LORD replied, "Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offe rit to the LORD." (Manoah did not realise that it was the angel of the LORD)

So this says that angles walk as men but hey do not talk as men, notice the attitude of the angels as if he is tired by having to put up with the presence of a man, and speaks as if he has other things that must be taken care of.

Ps 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him and he delivers them.

Angels then are our heralds and this is just one of the many indications that the angels as more than a host are an army, are soldiers.

Ps 91: 11-12 For he will comand his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

Our guardians.

Mt13:39 and the enenmy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

That threshing machien or just simple farm hands tending to the crop of man.
I take harvesters to be a good word and meaning where some might want ot put it in the negative.

Mt 28:2-3 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.
His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow.

Angels have purchase over the elements of the earth even the strong ones being a destructive outcome due to them not naturally belonging on earth, at least this one, or the call was put out to nature that something that controlled it was coming. Like lightning, as white as snow.

Lk 20:36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God's children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Then angels cannot die, what about the war of heaven and hell did any of them die then? Can an angel be killed? Or just bested?
Have they already died? Therefore cannot be killed?
Still unsure as to whether we rise in rank to become like angels or we are lowered from the angelic form to become man.

1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life.

Angels are part of life, have life? and we have the possition to be even as man above the angels in judgements and possible reckonings outcomes.

1 Co 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

So the language of the angels is in tongues, something knowledge understanding that man has to be in possession of a higher learning to understand th ewords spoken by men and especially angels.

2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as angel of light.

Heavy on the masquerade.

Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goe sinto great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.

I hope this doe snot mean us, which it doesn't because we are almost agreed that angles are rarely ever seen by men and those who do should not speak of them as a delight for the mind or senses.
We should not worship them we should possibly fear them, unless we are judging them?


Heb 1:14 Are not angels ministering spirits sent to serve who will inherit salvation?

Less than man the angles are here even if their profession be honourable.
They are our servants if not still in the station of without free-will almost.
They are sent however to watch and to tend to us.

1Pe 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by htose who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even the angels long to look into these things.

Angels have longings to be as we have the privilege to see the Holy Spirit more than they. The angels ar enot as complete as we, are less than we, not something to aspire towards.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;

The fact that angels must be able to sin before they are cast out goes someway to affirming that they have self that they indeed have free-will.
And maybe once cast out they no longer have the possiblity if choice but towards bad and 'evil'.

Jude-:6 And the angles who did not keep thier positions of authority but abandoned thier own home- these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgement on the great Day.

Position, authority, rank privilege.
Abandoned choice to be slave to nothing not even theri selves anymore.

There that is all i have for tonight but to coment upon further posts you have made since last i spoke;

I always though the rank of cherubim was for the infants of man who never needed to grow as a man.

On further findings Salima being from of Muslim teritory and benevolence do you have any further information upon Arham Darda'il, Hamalat al-Arsh, Jundallah, Mu'aqqibat and Raqio? Thank you for what ever you have given and still have.

I found this also and mad eme wonder about corespondance.
Revelations 8:10-11
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters because they were amde bitter.

Is this wormwood that of C.S. Lewis tale of Screwtape a demon and in letter to his nephew Wormwood anothe rdemon but of lower rank has any correspondance?

No man is capable of communicating with them which is why as you will have read, angels terrify men when they realsie they are in the presence of one.

The angels when building the universe were given their rank and duty.
So the duty of gravity has an angel? I think this is so.

It depends on your deffinition of jinn, could they be demons?

See you soon hopefuly.Smile
 
salima
 
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:21 pm
@sometime sun,
hi sometime-
i might interpret the verses from the bible in a different way than you do, yet i could still answer the questions you raise i think, based on my own frame of reference. not sure you are really asking for single answers to each question, they are more rather stated to provoke further thought?

i am not familiar with the arabic names you mention, but i will look them up and see what i have.

though this may be off topic, some further questions and points of interest do come up and since i had prepared this as a conclusion, i will post it here:

existence and being seem to be cyclic in nature, expansion and contraction; most of the ideas that follow are derived from esoteric/mystical teachings.

to complete the cycle, each person will reach the end of its term on the physical plane, it will lose momentum and be unable to resist being drawn back. after its passing on earth, it still exists both in the jinn or astral plane and the angelic plane. so there are in fact two types of jinn, those who never became human beings and those who had once been human beings. they are not all that different but this adds dimension and variety to the dynamics of the whole concept. this is also a possible explanation for those who believe they remember past lives, since both types interact with each other here and may also pick up certain skills or interests which would be available. for those returning, I think during the transition from the physical existence to the mental there may be a rather profound shock in store for the person who has no understanding of his reality. I would say this is where the stories of purgatory, heaven and hell were derived. those who lived on earth believing that there was no other realm would have the hardest transition and suffer much mental agony. they will also have to go through the understanding of what their actions had caused, what are the implications of what they had done. understandably they will suffer extreme remorse, and they will be there long enough to ultimately understand unity, which makes all wrong impossible.

at some point they will have reached complete fulfillment of all their desires, questions, and need no more than to return to the source from whence they have come. leaving the astral plane is another sort of death, but a peaceful one. so there are also in effect three types of angel/souls-those who have never left the angelic realm, those who are returning from the jinn realm having not gone beyond it, and those who are returning from the jinn realm having also been to the physical realm. regardless, there is no conflict here, only peace and bliss, and attention towards the source. ultimately each ray/soul will be assimilated back into the source and no olonger have the illusion of a separate identity.

though I didnt address your earlier questions specifically line by line, I believe the answers are in this and post #14.

what all this means to me is that under each human is in its essence a pure and innocent being of light. there is nothing anyone can do in his life on earth or the astral plane to defame or distort his inner being, so how can the question of guilt or punishment even arise? I have no trouble understanding these things, really. it is the physical world that troubles me...

I would apply some of the references concerning jinn to psychology or psychiatry, because we as human beings do not know how our own minds work. we are capable of deceiving ourselves as well as others; we are capable of tempting ourselves/others and causing our own downfall without knowing it is we who have done so. it is in the mind-world that reason, ego, ethics, aesthetics, all the things that make life meaningful exist, but in such a form as they cannot be discovered and identified. we search for objective ideals when it is not possible to get out of our own minds. in fact, there is nothing existing outside that universal or absolute mind, of which we are only fragments.

because here we are, getting to know each other, and even though we are angels inside we cant even recognize or access that part of our own being at will. we cannot control our own will to do the things we actually believe we should and may be deeply committed to doing. we can neither trust ourselves or each other not to commit deceit or worse...what to do about this? the question of whether there is some purpose to life doesnt seem so relevant to me...there are issues to be addressed here, and I believe most people agree on what they are. but how to do it?

---------- Post added 12-30-2009 at 11:00 AM ----------

xris;115323 wrote:
So what is it based on? A man who never read one line of scripture would never imagine the concept of Angels or Jinns.

This is listed in the mythological section , was that mistake? Myths are created from the fear of man and his imagination and can be confirmed by script to encourage the believers to abide by the faiths dogmatic demands. Once I was a child who imagined all types of horrors invaded my bedroom but by reason they disappeared.


hi xris-
a man who has never read a line of scriptures would nevertheless imagine things, such as you did as a child though they were not suggested to you. and who is to say that although they disappeared from your bedroom through the use of reason they do not still exist in reality? there could have been an actual counterpart to those things you imagined and yet could not accurately perceive.

and perhaps rather than solely and exclusively arising out of fear, myths are created for various reasons.

myths are stories which may or may not have any truth in them or behind them-myths are possibly completely false or completely true or anything in between. so that is why i think it is a good context to use in discussing angels, since all we have are stories about them. we are in effect comparing what we have heard about angels and examining the myth in the light of possibility.
 
 

 
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