What is god's purpose

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Aphoric
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 12:44 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;105251 wrote:
Don't you mean, I had no choice in being born but still must accept the fact that I am alive? That is fine, but on top of that now I must learn about god, then I must make a new decision, accept or reject. But I am asking for a third option, I don't want to play the game. Do I have that option?

Actually I don't want to be apart of the game. Just like if someone says, hey put on one of those uniforms, either the christian one or the atheist one and get out on the field. I'm trying to say I don't want to play.


I think the question of whether you had a choice in being born raises the question of whether you existed before birth. If you had, then why don't you remember anything about it? Or, how do you know you weren't asked before you were born? Perhaps we're all egos floating around in some immaterial plane and God does come to you and ask if you want to 'play the game.' In this (admittedly strange and far-fetched) case, you surely wouldn't want to remember God coming up and asking you such a thing, because then you wouldn't have a choice: you must rationally believe in God's existence because, well, you still remember talking to God before you were ever born. In a more likely case, I doubt we existed before we were individually created, and I don't see how asserting a non-existent will can work (I feel like I poorly articulated this idea, but I hope you were still able to follow it).

I still don't understand why you're fixated on the idea that you either have to believe or not. I tend to be inclined to believe that God exists, but before that all I cared about was living and loving. Whether that was because I was created by some supreme being for that purpose, or I was merely a product of random chance for no purpose, I was going to do me and let the chips fall where they may. I just don't see why you feel you are forced to go one way or the other. If you entirely accept that God exists, then that is very silly and closed minded. If you entirely reject God's existence, well, that is the exact same thing. Why can't you say "Whether God exists or not, in the end all I care about is love/prosperity/whatever it is you want to do." I don't see why that's impossible to do.

Krumple;105251 wrote:
I have no desire to end my life by my own will. I know I will eventually die against my will but since that is the case I don't need to do it myself. There are other reserves as well of course. I could be wrong, I might miss out on something. To be honest life really isn't that bad that I would want out. My problem isn't actually with existing, it's with someone saying I need to choose a team.


Who is saying that, and why do you feel so adamantly that you have to obey them?

Krumple;105251 wrote:
The question is really just to point out that you don't need purpose.


Then you should have titled this thread "God doesn't need a purpose."Laughing

Krumple;105251 wrote:
If god has a purpose for me then by all means I wouldn't be able to choose my own purpose. I would just be living out his plan for what ever reason. But if god has no purpose then what is the motivation behind creating anything? When you create something it is usually for an outlet of either distraction or to relieve stress. It also could be an expression, an outlet to make yourself known in a way you can't do any other way. If god is doing that then god would have the same problem.

In some ways yes. When you do, it is an outlet for something. It could be emotional, it could be philosophical or it could be intellectual. Even the motivations can change even during the same project. Some might even use it as a way to escape their current reality. A way to put aside your problems doing something that won't hopefully cause any new ones.


What if God's purpose for you is for you to ultimately do whatever the hell you want? What about creating something because you think you have something special to share? Don't you mean when you create something? I suppose you could take that a step further and say when people create something, but God is not a person. Stress and distraction are human characteristics that have no meaning when you try and append them to a being that is omnipotent and fully fulfilled within themselves.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 01:07 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105268 wrote:
You didn't answer my question at all.

I asked why you think God has a purpose.


I have no idea. I am analyzing the question I pose. The implications of the question are quite simple. If god has a purpose then there is a requirement or need perhaps even lack that god experiences. If god doesn't have a purpose then all things are haphazard which is a parallel to the universe not having any intelligence behind it. So which is it?

I am not making a claim that god has a purpose.

IntoTheLight;105268 wrote:

You replied that people's answers to the question may have implications.

I didn't ask you what your motivation was for asking the question; I asked you why you think God must have a purpose.

Want to try again?


Reference previous paragraph.
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 01:58 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;105307 wrote:
I have no idea.


I don't mean this disrepectfully, but I don't believe you.

Surely you have some inclination as to why you posed the question...

Quote:

I am analyzing the question I pose.


And that is totally fine, but it doesn't answer the question of why you posed the question.

-ITL-
 
Olejniker
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 01:59 am
@Krumple,
I think if a God did create us, then he must have done so because he wanted to.

If he was really apathetic about his creation, then why would he bother to create us?

So I think God takes pleasure in his creation? And he just enjoys creating?

Maybe that is his purpose? And he sits backs and just enjoys watching his creations live and exist?

But for the issue of an afterlife, perhaps if a God really enjoys his creations, maybe then he might want the company of his creations in the metaphysical realm where he dwells.

So yeah. That's my view.
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 02:03 am
@Olejniker,
Olejniker;105317 wrote:
I think if a God did create us, then he must have done so because he wanted to.

If he was really apathetic about his creation, then why would he bother to create us?


Why do you think that God created us?

Just curious.

-ITL-
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 02:10 am
@Krumple,
krumple,
i would answer much the same way as aphoric has, with a little elaboration.

i think you are being too influenced with the god-word baggage from the old days. belief in god doesnt mean that you have to believe in good and bad or right and wrong necessarily. it doesnt mean that you are bound to fight injustice etc. actually it doesnt mean anything at all.. so you are saying you want a third choice. what would it be? be undecided? that is agnosticism, and you are free to do that also.

now if you want to believe everything happened by accident, fine-you still had no choice. so what is the difference if you believe in god or not? same thing if you are undecided and refuse to take sides as to whether there is or is not a god. so in all three scenarios, you had no choice in being born. unless of course as aphoric suggested, you did in ffact have a choice and were asked by god. so in other words, the only way to make it possible for you to have ever had free will is to believe in god.

how's that?

---------- Post added 11-23-2009 at 01:44 PM ----------

oh, and about purpose...god may have a purpose in what he is doing, but that doesnt mean that he made one up for you as well. i had a reason for wanting to have a son but i did not give him a reason to live. i wish i could have asked him before he was born if he wanted to be born, but that was impossible. maybe it was impossible for god as well.
 
Olejniker
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 02:26 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105318 wrote:
Why do you think that God created us?

Just curious.

-ITL-


I'm agnostic. I'm neither a theist or a atheist. I believe it's daft to assume that God exists is fact or that God doesn't exist is fact.

I just think that if there is a God that 'kick-started' everything then he must have done so because he wanted to create, otherwise, why would he bother?
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 02:47 am
@Olejniker,
Olejniker;105321 wrote:
I'm agnostic. I'm neither a theist or a atheist. I believe it's daft to assume that God exists is fact or that God doesn't exist is fact.


Interesting and potentially damning to this discussion....

Quote:

]I just think that if there is a God that 'kick-started' everything then he must have done so because he wanted to create, otherwise, why would he bother?


Make up your mind, man.

First you say that you don't know if a "God" exists.

However, then you turn around and come up with all these characteristics that you attribute to God.

For example:

-God is a "He'
- God "kick-started everything"
- God's motivation for "creating" the world

I'm interested in how exactly you can make up attributes for "God" and then turn around and say that you don't know if it exists or not.

-ITL-
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 03:26 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105316 wrote:
I don't mean this disrepectfully, but I don't believe you.

Surely you have some inclination as to why you posed the question...

And that is totally fine, but it doesn't answer the question of why you posed the question.


I have told you why I asked the question. I have pointed out all motivation. This press is starting to seem like trollism.

You even requested earlier that I NOT give my reason for asking the question and now you request that I do?

IntoTheLight wrote:
I didn't ask you what your motivation was for asking the question; I asked you why you think God must have a purpose.

Want to try again?


---------- Post added 11-23-2009 at 01:32 AM ----------

Olejniker;105317 wrote:
I think if a God did create us, then he must have done so because he wanted to.


Must? I don't this it is that clear, at least not to me.

Olejniker;105317 wrote:

If he was really apathetic about his creation, then why would he bother to create us?


Could it be unintentional? A day dream? A misplaced thought? In boredom if you knew every single event that would happen, could you take a moment and wipe your ability to know? To play a chance game? A what if scenario? Maybe creation is to appeal to the ego that god has.

What is so good about being god if you can't do anything about it?
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 04:19 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;105326 wrote:

Could it be unintentional? A day dream? A misplaced thought? In boredom if you knew every single event that would happen, could you take a moment and wipe your ability to know? To play a chance game? A what if scenario? Maybe creation is to appeal to the ego that god has.

What is so good about being god if you can't do anything about it?


who said it would be good to be god? it's bad enough being human, i am glad i am not a god!
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 04:36 am
@salima,
salima;105334 wrote:
who said it would be good to be god? it's bad enough being human, i am glad i am not a god!


Well perhaps that is just a play with words since people like to apply good to god. But in my opinion being god would seem to be a lonely and miserable existence. Nothing else could relate to you. You couldn't be surprised by anything. The awe of anything wouldn't have awe. There would be nothing by which to place value upon your existence. Nothing you would miss. Nothing you would seek. Nothing you would cherish. No one to share your existence with.
 
Olejniker
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 06:56 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105324 wrote:
Interesting and potentially damning to this discussion....



Make up your mind, man.

First you say that you don't know if a "God" exists.

However, then you turn around and come up with all these characteristics that you attribute to God.

For example:

-God is a "He'
- God "kick-started everything"
- God's motivation for "creating" the world

I'm interested in how exactly you can make up attributes for "God" and then turn around and say that you don't know if it exists or not.

-ITL-


I'm sorry, we're arguing a hypothetical situation whereby a God DOES exists, and considering what its purpose is.

Now I'm sorry if I've fallen into societal concept of humanizing God, but being in a culture which constantly depicts God as a he, it's the term I most naturally slip into when talking about a God. If it really bugs you I shall refer to God as it.

Just because I have a certain cultural image of what a God looks in my head, does it mean I believe in a God?

Your argument is weird.

It's like you saying that I like to eat strawberries just because I think they are red in color.
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 06:58 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;105339 wrote:
Well perhaps that is just a play with words since people like to apply good to god. But in my opinion being god would seem to be a lonely and miserable existence. Nothing else could relate to you. You couldn't be surprised by anything. The awe of anything wouldn't have awe. There would be nothing by which to place value upon your existence. Nothing you would miss. Nothing you would seek. Nothing you would cherish. No one to share your existence with.


no, i meant the same thing you are saying.

but we can never know what it is to be a bat, right? i think sometimes i would rather be a chipmunk, but they have a rotten life surely-or do they? would they trade with us if they could?

so if we cant know what it is like to be the creatures we live with, how can we even guess what it might be like to be a god? we can only guess what it would be like for a human being to be a god...and i agree it sounds horrible.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 08:35 am
@salima,
salima;105370 wrote:
no, i meant the same thing you are saying.

but we can never know what it is to be a bat, right? i think sometimes i would rather be a chipmunk, but they have a rotten life surely-or do they? would they trade with us if they could?

so if we cant know what it is like to be the creatures we live with, how can we even guess what it might be like to be a god? we can only guess what it would be like for a human being to be a god...and i agree it sounds horrible.


You are right Sal, I can only speculate from my own perspective. There could be a constant state of bliss where all those things I mentioned would be considered meaningless.

Since we are not aware of other beings experiences we can assume it to be harsh or pleasant. But would a god have such a lack of knowledge? Wouldn't a god be able to know a beings experience? Perhaps a god wanted to create an idealistic existence seeing a lack of knowing would be more appealing than all knowing. Would that god be envious of that existence?
 
salima
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 07:18 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;105379 wrote:
You are right Sal, I can only speculate from my own perspective. There could be a constant state of bliss where all those things I mentioned would be considered meaningless.

Since we are not aware of other beings experiences we can assume it to be harsh or pleasant. But would a god have such a lack of knowledge? Wouldn't a god be able to know a beings experience? Perhaps a god wanted to create an idealistic existence seeing a lack of knowing would be more appealing than all knowing. Would that god be envious of that existence?


i think a god would be all knowing about his own creation at least at first. but it may evolve and surprise him. consider dr frankenstein in the lab and what he got out of his creation. maybe it could be like that for a god.

i dont see why he couldnt create something that would surprise him-i know i have done or thought up things that surprise me sometimes!

so i dont think he would need to envy anything because he could have it whatever way he wanted to...then again that in itself kind of takes away the point of doing it, at least for me. i would hope a god would be able to figure out some way of getting around being bored...
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 12:15 am
@Krumple,
Krumple,

I don't think you and I can interact on this topic any more.

You seem to want some absolute concrete certainty that nobody can provide.

I'm sorry to tell you that matters of spirituality are not subject to absolutist interpretations of reality. They simply are not. They are based on belief.

I have never stated on this website that anything I said is absolute truth; on the contrary, I've stated my beliefs.

Belief is not a statement of ultimate, absolute relaity. It is merely a statemnt of belief.

If you are incapable of distinguishing between these two principles, then perhaps it is better that we don't converse.

-ITL-
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2009 01:10 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105537 wrote:
Krumple,

I don't think you and I can interact on this topic any more.

You seem to want some absolute concrete certainty that nobody can provide.


Nope, it is not about being absolute or having absolute because there is nothing absolute, at least none that I have ever seen. So why would I ask for an absolute answer? Perhaps the only thing absolute is that there are no absolutes.

IntoTheLight;105537 wrote:

I'm sorry to tell you that matters of spirituality are not subject to absolutist interpretations of reality. They simply are not. They are based on belief.


And belief can be subject to rational thought. I mean if your belief in god is on par with the belief in an invisible friend, then can't you ask the question are they in fact the same thing? If they are not, then why not?

IntoTheLight;105537 wrote:

Belief is not a statement of ultimate, absolute relaity. It is merely a statemnt of belief.


Oh but they affect your reality, they persuade influence or dictate your behavior. So they have a relevance when it comes to interaction with others. I am not saying with you personally but others will impose those beliefs onto others to insist they behave similarly.

IntoTheLight;105537 wrote:

If you are incapable of distinguishing between these two principles, then perhaps it is better that we don't converse.


Well I'm pretty sure what absolute is, and I personally don't even think we are absolute. So why would I expect it from anything else?
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 08:20 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple,

I can't give you want you want.

-ITL-
 
Camerama
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 12:03 am
@Krumple,
"To exist is to possess identity. What identity are they able to give to their superior realm?"( Ayn Rand)

Through religion, mystics introduce a supernatural realm. However, it is established on a false metaphysical foundation. Any doctine based on a fantastical abstraction refutes the axiom existence exists. Existence is primary. From unicellular organisms to a spiral galaxy, every existent has a particular indentity. An entity cannot exist without an identity. Without identity, an entity loses existence. It becomes nothing. Mystics purport inevitably that god is without identity, or at least, an identity unintelligible to human beings. Mystics leave the realm of reason when they predicate a "higher dimension," independent of our natural world.

Reason is absolute. All knowledge, barring a posteriori, is derived from reason and logic. By postulation a supernatural being transcendent of human knowledge, or worse, our capacity for knowledge, they enter into speculation, and throw away all reason. Reason is our tool only tool to understand reality, by accepting mysticism, you damn reason. This is not a question that is answerable. Purpose is secondary existence is primary. If god's existence is independent of empirical knowledge, so too is his purpose. The question posed seems to be a critique on religion.
 
TheLessorIron
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 12:07 am
@Camerama,
God is the product of hierarchy.
 
 

 
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