Two Important Things about Islam

@Arjuna,

Arjuna;88902 wrote:

In regard to how Islam appears: isn't it true that the Muslim world has experienced a huge amount of change in the last century? And that this pervasive upheaval and the efforts of Muslims to cope with it shapes what we see?

Yes it is true that all the peoples and societies of the earth have undergone radical changes in the past 100 yrs. The biggest and fastest change to the western societies that have invited the muslims into their countries is happening now. Simply put muslims have ten children and the west has two point two. This fact is changing the identity of the original population, they are being outbred. Given that the first world societies embrace human rights and democracy, we are screwed. Once a numbers voting block is established it's sharia for all and there is nothing we can do about it unless we adopt the "we were here first and we don't want to change" attitude that muslims have back on their home turf......But that is not democratic is it?

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;88904 wrote:

salima,

Below is a paragraph from an Islamic website, I am not trying to put down Islam but to understand this great faith better

In Muslim-majority nations, people are forced to confess Islamic faith and behave in one voice in religion; but they forget that the rulers cannot fill the heart with genuine faith. I believe that faith chosen freely at the individual level without coercion and without forced conformity is the genuine faith.

In a world where the hearts with freely chosen faith, not by forced compliance, pervade, the true religious spirit comes alive to establish an ideal society by free choice of the people. This is proven by Muslim history in the first 6 centuries.

Muslims helped Jews to create their Golden Age and liberate Christians from tyranny of Roman church. Muslims philosophy and science promoted the Enlightenment and Renaissance of the Europe. We also created the experimental science. In those days, we educated anyone who came our way without force-feeding our faith. Now we have governments that have taken control of our body claiming to send our "meat and blood" to God while Muslims have to beg from non-Muslim societies for their daily bread to keep their body alive.

Prophet Mohammed struggled to establish a free society. Similarly, Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate.

So-called Islamic government is myth created by power-hungry people to control Muslim mind and body. There was no such thing as Islamic government. Government is only a means to execute the will of people. The individual members of the government can have Islamic values and faith. Prophet Mohammed ruled as a democratically elected ruler following the invitation by the people of Medina.

He never forced a decision upon his community even when he believed that majority decision on a particular secular matter was a mistake as happened in the case of the disaster of Uhud war. A minority including him wanted to fortify the Medina and fight the Meccan forces. But he agreed to go along with the wishes of the majority to fight the Koreish in the open instead of from fortified Medina even though the strategy of the majority was wrong in his opinion. So, Islam demands Democracy, not tyranny by ullamahs, kings, self-appointed presidents, and military

much better, alan.

i am not sure exactly which governments are being referred to in the part i underlined, whether they mean all the muslim majority governments or not. but wherever that is being done it is not islamic.

there is no guide for setting up an islamic government, only shariah law which was built by scholars according to studying the qur'an and hadiths and they can be amended with consensus. many muslims have asked for that. it is not the governments that are impeding progress but the maulvis and imams who are doing an injustice to the cause they claim to serve.

saddam husein was not particularly orthodox, and his government was secular. the policies he followed were totally his own as he was a dictator. how islam is being blamed for anything he did is a wonder to me.

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;88904 wrote:

Muslims must struggle hard peacefully to establish a free society where no totalitarian government, no Imams, no predominant group control us or decide for us. Everyone is equal. If any one wants to be a believer, let him/her be. If anyone wants to be an apostate let him/her be safe to live the life of an apostate.

Thank you, a noble sentiment that if embraced and practiced by all nations would truely make brothers and sisters of us.........but it never happened beyond the odd couple of generation scattered throughout our history.
We look to exclusivity and conformity at the same time. We identify with our religion solely and thereby reish the psychological exclusivity, we are different from non believers. While we bathe in the exclusivity we long to conform those around us as valididity comes with numbers. If we could get the world to embrace Islam to the last man and dog (sorry no dogs) we would soon see the emergence of a splinter group, not drastically different, but different enough to make us feel exclusive...and then comes the conformity drive....and so on and so on and so on. You religious adherants do not practice religion, you practice ego appeasement.

---------- Post added 09-08-2009 at 04:06 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;88904 wrote:

salima,
I am not trying to put down Islam but to understand this great faith better

Read the koran, compare the similarities to the other two Abrahamic faiths, understand that it aint that different, it has the ten commandments and they are almost identical. The only difference at all is in "thou shalt not murder" a small change though, " thou shalt not murder unjustly" so if the local Imams consider it just, go ahead, your covered. Re you not wanting to put down Islam, your safe the adherants are doing the job quite well on their own.

@peter74,

psychobabble-
this area of the forum is for discussion and learning, it was created for the purpose of dispelling ignorance. i think you are in the wrong place. and to make my point, the ten commandments are not part of the qur'an. the story of moses is certainly there and the commandments are mentioned as having been given to abraham for the children of israel, but obviously 'keep holy the sabbath' would be impossible for there is no sabbath in islam.

@salima,

I fear that if i defend my understanding of Islam I am being branded unfairly. Firstly No one has denied my claims but i am told to check my facts before posting. Salima you know very well that Mohamed held slaves and allowed his followers to hold them. They where a bounty of victory, the women where raped by their owners and kept as chatels to be bought and sold.

Iran inflicts its law on all its inhabitants not just muslims and as you have seen recently, no one can say the populace have any real say in its government. Are we not able to condemn a countries laws just because the majority agree with its cruel punishments. Do you think its right that teenagers can be hung for homosexuality?

KSA is a country that does not allow a christian to even enter the country with a bible let alone be able to worship their god. You say what freedoms are not given? just ask their women about unescorted shopping trips or not being allowed to drive a car.

The hatred we see between the tribes of Islam is much more than any distaste i have of any faiths that compel people to conform to their dogma. I would rid the world of all dogmatic faiths, they oppose mans progress.

---------- Post added 09-08-2009 at 06:16 AM ----------

Aedes;88888 wrote:

There are roughly 50 countries in Africa. Which one has legal slavery based on Islamic law? The last one to abolish it was Mauritania.

That's not to deny that slavery happens illegally in Africa, but some of the more famous current examples include Cote d'Ivoire and Sierra Leone which are NOT Muslim countries.

The authority i speak of is the authority of Mohamed.

Mauritania as you point out only banned slavery under international pressure in 1980. KSA and the Yemen in 1962 but it is still a fact that slave markets are still being held in the Yemen where most end up in KSA. I fully appreciate no one can be totaly innocent of exploitation, when i buy my cheap shirt it means some poor soul is working for a pittance. The point I am making is that slavery is not condemned in the koran and those who wish to have slaves use this authority to justify their evil.

@salima,

salima;88954 wrote:

psychobabble-
this area of the forum is for discussion and learning, it was created for the purpose of dispelling ignorance. i think you are in the wrong place. and to make my point, the ten commandments are not part of the qur'an. the story of moses is certainly there and the commandments are mentioned as having been given to abraham for the children of israel, but obviously 'keep holy the sabbath' would be impossible for there is no sabbath in islam.

I have the right to express a pertinant view on the question of religion, it's validity, and it's adherents, you guys certainly market your ideas openly. To take the lowest degrading insult and use it as your qualification against me to send my views into conventry is an example of the conformity that I spoke of in my previous post. To question the motives and driving force to faith is a philosophical quandry.....whats your problem with what I said specifically?

As to your assertion that I do not know what I am talking about...and your obvious sabbath retort, have a look at this link, and learn about the religion you espouse to be a scholar on.

Islam's Support of Ten Commandments

@salima,

salima;88469 wrote:

the reason a muslim woman is forbidden to marry a non-muslim man is that she most likely will abandon her religion in favor of her husband. i am sure most western women will disagree with this, but men have a stronger source of will and do not need the support of their wives to continue their devotional practices, whereas women will not be so independent (or stubborn if you like that term better) that they can follow through with their commitment to their religion when their husband has no relation to it. i agree this is the tendency of men and women and i dont mind.

The justification you just gave for what is essentially the moral and sexual enslavement of Muslim women strikes me as profoundly disingenuous. The monumental sexual insecurity of Islam is as clear as day. This is basic tribal behavior, in which women are seen as a commodity to be fought over and hoarded. That this attitude makes perfect sense as a survival mechanism doesn't make it any less atavistic as a cultural value.

@Aedes,

Aedes;88910 wrote:

Alan, even Wikipedia does a better job than that. You're reading anti-Muslim propaganda and pro-Muslim propaganda without reading any basic scholarship or well-referenced summary material.

And this statement, by the way, is a historical FACT (except for the Roman Church part):

I just put forward two diverse points of view that are obvious propaganda from both sides.

Islam like Judaism or Christianity is a huge subject and that was just a small effort to put my foot into the door so to speak

There is much I don't like about Islam, as it is interpreted my some modern Moslem's. Such as strapping bombs onto teenagers and telling them to blow up themselves and others and by this murderous act become martyrs in heaven where 70 virgins will be given to them by God there for their pleasure.

Are modern day Christians and Jews equally guilty?

salima about you question about the effect on personal freedom in some Islamic states. A woman who only sin in to wear slacks is imprisoned and a punishment of 40 lashes might be her sentence. I can go on and on stating this type of appalling Moslem biblical out of date laws and the consequences to the person unfortunate to live under the yoke of these draconian laws.

But are we here to find only the good in our religious beliefs and avoid the unpleasant reality that mindless cultism of some followers do to pervert the pure essence and purpose of all religions?

The aim of Religions should be to find reason for our existence and how to love and live with our fellow human beings, not kill and murder in the name of God

@Grimlock,

My understanding is that Islam is the only one of the global religions whose sacred text explicitly condones wife-beating.

Islam's holy book is accompanied by commentaries. I understand that when modern commentators on the Koran address the issue of wife-beating, they start with, "Yes, the Koran says that." But then they immediately launch into an exploration of the compassionate nature of God.

It hasn't been that long ago that an Egyptian who went so far as to suggest that God didn't literally turn a bunch of Jews into monkeys (as the Koran suggests) was banished and required to divorce his Muslim wife.

Refer to 'Oxford Reader on Slavery' to see the profound involvement of Muslims in the global slave trade as far back as 800 AD. Three different historians suggest that the Atlantic slave trade was made financially feasible because of the work of the Moors.

It's my own opinion that collectively, Muslims have no purchase on the higher moral ground.

But as the lady said in that crappy British movie: You can look at a thing and not see it. You haven't seen a thing until you've seen it's beauty. These are words I live by.

@xris,

xris;88958 wrote:

The authority i speak of is the authority of Mohamed.

Riiiiiiiiight. Can you please illuminate for me the authority behind the child slavery on coffee plantations in Cote d'Ivoire, which is a Christian and animist country?

xris;88958 wrote:

Mauritania as you point out only banned slavery under international pressure in 1980.

And if you took about 2 minutes to read about Mauritania you'd realize that the slaves held in Mauritania are ALSO Muslim. The difference is that the slaveholders were (are) Moors and the slaves were (are) black. The problem with slavery in Mauritania is RACIAL, not religious. In 1989-1991 there were massive riots in both Senegal (ALSO a Muslim country, but without slavery) and Mauritania because of the RACIAL problems, in which blacks were expelled from Mauritania and Moorish shops in Dakar were destroyed and looted (it was nominally a border war over grazing, but that was just the catalyst). And while you're apparently scrambling on Google to find something to support your arguments, take note that I've lived and worked in Dakar, Senegal and Fajara / Serekunda, Gambia (a country completely surrounded by Senegal), and I've been to the Mauritanian border area north of Saint-Louis; I've known many people from both countries, so I'm not basing this on the first website to show up on my browser.

xris;88958 wrote:

KSA and the Yemen in 1962

These countries are not in Africa!!!!!!!! :brickwall:

xris;88958 wrote:

slavery is not condemned in the koran

Please point out where it is "condemned" in the Christian bible or in the Torah.

---------- Post added 09-08-2009 at 12:39 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;88982 wrote:

There is much I don't like about Islam, as it is interpreted my some modern Moslem's. Such as strapping bombs onto teenagers and telling them to blow up themselves and others and by this murderous act become martyrs in heaven where 70 virgins will be given to them by God there for their pleasure.

Are modern day Christians and Jews equally guilty?

Are you really asking about the crimes of modern-day Christians? How about the Serbian Christians who literally tried to exterminate Bosnian Muslims just 16 years ago?? How about the Hutu Christians who tried to exterminate the Tutsi Christians just 15 years ago, including luring them into churches to be slaughtered?

The difference is that you know better than to blame it on some fundamental characteristic of the Christian religion, despite the perpetrators being Christian -- but you DON'T know better than to blame it on Islam.

Most fundamentalist Islam is political and social violence that finds its rationalization in religious doctrine, just as fascist violence in the 1930s was political and social unrest that found its own rationalization in nationalist parties. It's the exact same phenomenon.

@peter74,

If we judge religions by their most ugly and extreme believers, then none of them deserves anything but condemnation by mankind.

@jgweed,

jgweed;89019 wrote:

If we judge religions by their most ugly and extreme believers, then none of them deserves anything but condemnation by mankind.

So should we do the same for criminals? Ignore their crimes and just focus on the good things they have done in their lives? Don't send anyone to jail for wrong doings just remember the good things they have done?

@Krumple,

Krumple;89021 wrote:

So should we do the same for criminals? Ignore their crimes and just focus on the good things they have done in their lives?

Oh please -- you know the difference.

Humans are actors with agency and decisionmaking capacity.

Religions are not.

@Aedes,

Aedes;89022 wrote:

Oh please -- you know the difference.

Humans are actors with agency and decisionmaking capacity.

Religions are not.

But all religions are made by humans. So why would they not carry with them the same effect?

So if I made a club of serial killers and we held weekly meetings and drummed up a bible of murder it would be all fine and dandy but it is only the actions of the members which should be scrutinized? Seriously?

@Krumple,

Krumple;89021 wrote:

So should we do the same for criminals? Ignore their crimes and just focus on the good things they have done in their lives? Don't send anyone to jail for wrong doings just remember the good things they have done?

I think the point is you can't judge the whole cart on one or a few bad apples, such as, would you judge the whole of the white race by what Nazi extremists do?

@Caroline,

Caroline;89024 wrote:

I think the point is you can't judge the whole cart on one or a few bad apples, such as, would you judge the whole of the white race by what Nazi extremists do?

Is it being white that causes nazi extremists? What is the catalyst for them being prejudice?

@Krumple,

Krumple;89025 wrote:

Is it being white that causes nazi extremists? What is the catalyst for them being prejudice?

Probably ignorance?

@Krumple,

Krumple;89023 wrote:

But all religions are made by humans. So why would they not carry with them the same effect?

So are all croquet mallets, whether you use them to play croquet or to bludgeon someone.

Religion does not DO anything. People do things. People justify good and bad actions in all sorts of ways. So what, Albert Rosenberg was an atheists but Joseph Goebbels was a Catholic -- does it really matter considering they both committed the same crimes?

Krumple;89023 wrote:

So if I made a club of serial killers and we held weekly meetings and drummed up a bible of murder it would be all fine and dandy but it is only the actions of the members which should be scrutinized? Seriously?

There IS the concept of an inherently criminal organization, with the Nazi SS forces being the most famous in modernity. But that is a very rare case and one that cannot in good conscience be applied to any of the world's major religious groups. The mafia is not inherently illegal or criminal -- but many of its activities are. Islam is not inherently criminal or murderous, nor is Christianity, even though there are violent criminals in both groups. The Manson family was a different story -- it existed only for crime and went on a rampage of it.

@Aedes,

Aedes;89028 wrote:

So are all croquet mallets, whether you use them to play croquet or to bludgeon someone.

Religion does not DO anything. People do things. People justify good and bad actions in all sorts of ways. So what, Albert Rosenberg was an atheists but Joseph Goebbels was a Catholic -- does it really matter considering they both committed the same crimes?

There IS the concept of an inherently criminal organization, with the Nazi SS forces being the most famous in modernity. But that is a very rare case and one that cannot in good conscience be applied to any of the world's major religious groups. The mafia is not inherently illegal or criminal -- but many of its activities are. Islam is not inherently criminal or murderous, nor is Christianity, even though there are violent criminals in both groups. The Manson family was a different story -- it existed only for crime and went on a rampage of it.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, almost sounds like you are playing both sides of the fence now. From my perspective I am talking about where they get the motivation from?

For example, some might argue that violent video games or violent movies are the cause for teen violence. In some cases you can say that is true, so we should ban violent video games and violent movies. However what about the millions who never do anything violent? See I can follow you, but lets be consistent here. If the motivation is caused by religion to become an extremist then it needs to be held accountable, just like a violent video game could be held accountable for a teen killing a cab driver after playing grand theft auto.

So which is it? Those both can't be different. If you support the freedom of religion yet do not support violent movies or violent video games, then you are a hypocrite.

(yes I know violent movies and violent video games is not the topic, I am using them to compare some contrast of ideas which I find contradictory)

@peter74,

Can I make a suggestion.

It is very difficult to follow this thread, as it has no jumped into a discussion about slavery, having being started about fasting and marriage. How about a new thread is created for each topic, such as slavery, and then all the relevant posts can be placed there so it is easy to read. It would just be impossible to discuss every aspect of a religion in one thread.

It may just be me, had a looonnnggg day at work today.

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