Does existence really precede essence?

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north
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 12:17 am
@MMP2506,
Quote:
Originally Posted by north http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
I see

in order for one to think one must need a brain

and the brain is built upon .....nutrients , such as minerals , vitamins , carbs etc , hence then , the mind





MMP2506;145058 wrote:
Knowledge is dependent upon a mind to know it. The knowledge you have concerning the biological workings of nature is dependent upon that knowledge first being known by a mind.


if that is true , then you should fully understand all of life on Earth with no in depth study of life on Earth

any life form




Quote:
Existence without consciousness is inconceivable because existence entails awareness.


yet

the Universe was here before you , and I

before your awarness of the Universe


Quote:
One could say that minerals would exist without the mind's understanding of nutrients, but what would minerals be without our understanding of them and what sort existence would that be?


existence without us


Quote:
Certainly nothing we would ever be able to grasp, and certainly not what I mean when I use the words mineral and exist.


I can grasp it , why not you ?
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 12:42 am
@north,
north;145067 wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by north http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
I see

in order for one to think one must need a brain

and the brain is built upon .....nutrients , such as minerals , vitamins , carbs etc , hence then , the mind




if that is true , then you should fully understand all of life on Earth with no in depth study of life on Earth



When I use the word mineral, I mean the knowledge I have about minerals because that is the only thing about minerals I know. And when I say exist, I mean to be because existence almost always entails being something.

The knowledge I have about minerals is dependent upon my perceptions, and the perceptions of others which have produced the language that describes them.

Other than our perceptions of things, we have no further access of them. We can come to an understanding of things by applying words to describe them, but as for the things apart from our perceptions of them, they would not exist without a perceiver.

What would there be without perceptions? Quite literally nothing, as something must be perceived to be anything; otherwise, there wouldn't be anything for it to be.

What we know as reality is based on what we perceive, and what we perceive is contingent on a perceiving mind.

The brain, as we perceive it, only exists because of our definition of it. Life is constantly changing, as are our perceptions, but because of the ability to communicate, we can rationalize our conceptions with other people and create ideas such as the brain, but what we mean by "brain" is still only the idea "brain".


Communication creates objective reality, and without some level of intersubjective communication, there would be no objectivity, just radical isolation and in my opinion nothing.

---------- Post added 03-28-2010 at 01:47 AM ----------

north;145067 wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by north http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
[

existence without us




Existence without a definition created by us? What would a brain be without what we essentially apply to our definition of it?

What exists only exists how we understand it, so how could we imagine it existing without our understanding of it?
 
north
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 01:04 am
@MMP2506,
Quote:
Originally Posted by north http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by north [URL="http://www.philosophyforum.com/images/PHBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif"]http://www.philosophyforum.com/image...s/viewpost.gif[/URL]
I see

in order for one to think one must need a brain

and the brain is built upon .....nutrients , such as minerals , vitamins , carbs etc , hence then , the mind




if that is true , then you should fully understand all of life on Earth with no in depth study of life on Earth





MMP2506;145074 wrote:
When I use the word mineral, I mean the knowledge I have about minerals because that is the only thing about minerals I know.


inotherwords , you have NO idea about the mineral or any mineral at all that is necessary for life



Quote:
And when I say exist, I mean to be because existence almost always entails being something.


existence always entails something



Quote:
The knowledge I have about minerals is dependent upon my perceptions, and the perceptions of others which have produced the language that describes them.


to the minerals themselves your perception means , zero

they are what they are , in and of themselves

Quote:
Other than our perceptions of things, we have no further access of them. We can come to an understanding of things by applying words to describe them, but as for the things apart from our perceptions of them, they would not exist without a perceiver.


things don't care about your perception , at all really

Quote:
What would there be without perceptions?


everything in the Universe


Quote:
Quite literally nothing, as something must be perceived to be anything; otherwise, there wouldn't be anything for it to be.


so how did perception come before air to breath ?



Quote:
What we know as reality is based on what we perceive, and what we perceive is contingent on a perceiving mind.


well then tell me then ,what was the stimulis that lead you to preceive air ?

Quote:
The brain, as we perceive it, only exists because of our definition of it. Life is constantly changing, as are our perceptions, but because of the ability to communicate, we can rationalize our conceptions with other people and create ideas such as the brain, but what we mean by "brain" is still only the idea "brain".


so we can shut off this " perception " and the brain can magically disappear , then......?


Quote:
Communication creates objective reality, and without some level of intersubjective communication, there would be no objectivity, just radical isolation and in my opinion nothing.


contradiction
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 02:54 am
@north,
[CENTER]:bigsmile:
I am convinced there is a Moment a Human finds it's Essence. Becoming Aware of this does noT mean the Essence as in Quality was not Present.

So a body can be existing without be:ing Aware

Pepijn Sweep
Magister aa:lol:Laughingn't IJ

[/CENTER]
 
north
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 08:23 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;145092 wrote:
[CENTER]:bigsmile:

I am convinced there is a Moment a Human finds it's Essence. Becoming Aware of this does noT mean the Essence as in Quality was not Present.[/CENTER]

[CENTER]So a body can be existing without be:ing Aware[/CENTER]

[CENTER]Pepijn Sweep
Magister aa:lol:Laughingn't IJ[/CENTER]



so endorse evolution then
 
student-of-life
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 09:17 pm
@Lost1 phil,
I think that it is necessary that they occur simultaneously. Think about a machine. The parts of the machine exist independently, but the essence of the machine itself does not come about until the exact moment that it is assembled as the existence of the machine does not come about until it is assembled. Until you have both, you have neither, for before, you have something else entirely.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Sun 28 Mar, 2010 10:19 pm
@student-of-life,
student-of-life;145392 wrote:
I think that it is necessary that they occur simultaneously. Think about a machine. The parts of the machine exist independently, but the essence of the machine itself does not come about until the exact moment that it is assembled as the existence of the machine does not come about until it is assembled. Until you have both, you have neither, for before, you have something else entirely.


First you must have a notion of using the machine. I look desperately for non-electrical equipement because I can not stan these wining, energy consuming etc. But your right, U NEED BOTH.:bigsmile:
PS
Very HappyVery Happy
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 11:31 am
@student-of-life,
student-of-life;145392 wrote:
I think that it is necessary that they occur simultaneously. Think about a machine. The parts of the machine exist independently, but the essence of the machine itself does not come about until the exact moment that it is assembled as the existence of the machine does not come about until it is assembled. Until you have both, you have neither, for before, you have something else entirely.


That is the point I was trying to get at. For biological processes to occur, experience must take place with it simultaneously. Without consciousness/perception, there would be no function of the brain or minerals, and there would be no way to differentiate between anything; therefore perception is bedrock for existence to occur.

Evolution also cannot occur without perception, as it is only through natural selection that evolution takes place. At every level of evolution, a process of "selection" takes place, which entails some degree of consciousness/awareness.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 01:40 am
@MMP2506,
How would you get my compy to get more consious of my wishes ? That would be a small, helpfull way of Improving on communications. Do not change keyboard settings !

Last analoog
Pepijn
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 11:53 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
What is essence ? With cooking U use IT when U do not have the real thing.
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 07:46 pm
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;145640 wrote:
That is the point I was trying to get at. For biological processes to occur, experience must take place with it simultaneously. Without consciousness/perception, there would be no function of the brain or minerals, and there would be no way to differentiate between anything; therefore perception is bedrock for existence to occur.

Evolution also cannot occur without perception, as it is only through natural selection that evolution takes place. At every level of evolution, a process of "selection" takes place, which entails some degree of consciousness/awareness.

The whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Evolution is blind...It is not a choice the species makes, but a choice nature makes for the species...
 
north
 
Reply Tue 4 May, 2010 08:53 pm
@Fido,
Does existence really precede essence?

no
 
qualia
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 05:28 pm
@north,
north wrote:
Does existence really precede essence?...no

The existence of humans is the reason why humans can represent things-beings as such and such, and why we can be aware of them as such and such. All awareness of some given essence in its general contingency presupposes existence. Whence could essence move if it were not for the essence of existence in the first place?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 09:25 pm
@Fido,
Fido;160185 wrote:
Evolution is blind...It is not a choice the species makes, but a choice nature makes for the species...


Right. Or it seems to be the case. (Can we be sure?) But would you agree that evolution is now cultural? Technological? One could still argue that humanity who "chooses" how to evolve is still the product of nature, and of biological evolution.

---------- Post added 05-08-2010 at 10:26 PM ----------

qualia;161874 wrote:
The existence of humans is the reason why humans can represent things-beings as such and such, and why we can be aware of them as such and such. All awareness of some given essence in its general contingency presupposes existence. Whence could essence move if it were not for the essence of existence in the first place?


This is a good point. But on the flip side, is not "existence" itself an essence? I suppose it comes down to the nature of existence. And yet we cannot contemplate this nature except by means of essence, or so it seems to me.

---------- Post added 05-08-2010 at 10:27 PM ----------

student-of-life;145392 wrote:
I think that it is necessary that they occur simultaneously. Think about a machine. The parts of the machine exist independently, but the essence of the machine itself does not come about until the exact moment that it is assembled as the existence of the machine does not come about until it is assembled. Until you have both, you have neither, for before, you have something else entirely.


Great post! I think you are on to something here.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 06:32 am
@qualia,
qualia;161874 wrote:
The existence of humans is the reason why humans can represent things-beings as such and such, and why we can be aware of them as such and such. All awareness of some given essence in its general contingency presupposes existence. Whence could essence move if it were not for the essence of existence in the first place?

Man: First gethe dictionary out of your mouf... The existence of humans is the reason why humans....??? Really??? Then what is the why of existence??? Because nothing can be supposed to exist without cause unless owned or working for the government...

How about using your dictionary to define essence; because I take it as a moral form we associate with a given physical form; but then, what is the essence of justice, and what is the essence of liberty???... These moral forms are all essence and no presence, no substance, no esixtence...

Essence as a notion is not a part of any thing or being but is a moral form we use to define all things physical, and moral, which have their being only because of our own- in that we find them necessary... Justice, as a quasi concept exists because we find it essential to our being... Since it is essential to our being should we say it is of our essence??? As your remarks show, the possibility of language adding to our confusion is nearly limitless...
 
JPhil
 
Reply Sun 9 May, 2010 07:30 am
@richrf,
richrf;84549 wrote:
Well, if you understand that people have no choice, then what are you going to do. They gotta do what they gotta do? In any case, you are neither excusing behavior or explaining it in a deterministic society. You are just doing what you gotta do. There is no difference in anything. You and Einstein and the criminals are just both doing what is already determined. It is all flat. Everyone is just doing what they are determined to do, with no differences, no judgments.

I am not sure that I was clear in my post. I think essence and existence are intertwined. There is no separation in my conception of Life.

Rich

About that view of determinism, just because the life is determined does not mean we must act like there is no reason for law. If we knew the future then there would be no reason for law but since we don't, what ever is determined does is just going to happen and we must act accordingly, judging others.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 05:39 pm
@hue-man,
We only think in terms of essence. Existence, as concept, is an essence. That's my 2 cents.
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2010 09:26 pm
@Reconstructo,
I'll give you my two cents, and you have doubled your money...You should be in business...
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 12:20 am
@Fido,
Fido;160185 wrote:
Evolution is blind...It is not a choice the species makes, but a choice nature makes for the species...


Evolution does use the species as tools for the choices to be made, but I feel evolution is anything but blind, or else monkeys would evolve into amoeba.

You seem to be severing nature from evolution and both of them from the species which make them both up. I don't see that need.

The members of species do consciously make choices that influence their evolution, even though it is also the case that evolution guides those choices. Its a circular relationship which make them dependent upon each other. Much like the essence of the species is to exist and to exist as a flux. To Evolve.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2010 04:26 am
@MMP2506,
MMP2506;171984 wrote:
Evolution does use the species as tools for the choices to be made, but I feel evolution is anything but blind, or else monkeys would evolve into amoeba.

You seem to be severing nature from evolution and both of them from the species which make them both up. I don't see that need.

The members of species do consciously make choices that influence their evolution, even though it is also the case that evolution guides those choices. Its a circular relationship which make them dependent upon each other. Much like the essence of the species is to exist and to exist as a flux. To Evolve.

well, rats evolve into rats, and sharks evelve into sharks; which is to say that they have their own slot which they fill to perfection, and when they do evelove it is into a better form of rat or shark... The same is true of Amoeba, that no matter how many critters evolve from amoebas there will always be amoebas, and there is no reason to believe de-evolution is not occuring at the same time as evolution... Kids in a class room resemble Amoeba in a puddle of pond water, and I cannot believe it is coincidence...
 
 

 
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