My Case for Intelligent design behind existence

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Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:08 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;145497 wrote:
You never learn do you Alan?

When are you going to realize that atheism isn't a belief? It is simply just a lack of belief. You don't require anything for having no belief in something. Other wise you are insisting that I have faith that aliens are not abducting people. No. I simply don't believe aliens are abducting people.


xris there are countless people who actively promote atheism and you simply cannot promote a non existent idea

Perhaps your idea goes something like this, "There is no such thing as cold only a lack of heat" or "there is no such thing as evil only a lack of goodness"
 
MMP2506
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:49 am
@xris,
xris;145107 wrote:
Yes let it be of historical interest why men invented god to make them feel secure. Why it was developed to use as a tool of control. BUT why now in 21c should we still be attempting to make new inventions. I am an agnostic, I can wonder but I wont damned invent. Why should any one feel the need?


You do realize that there is a difference between the philosophical reasoning behind God and the fundamentalist blind faith concerning a God?

Philosophically speaking, God has a necessary function within many different contexts that nothing else can fill. Not a God with properties that can passively sit around and intervene when he sees fit, but an actively involved presence, which science cannot account for. When philosophers reconciled the pagan religions into a philosophical representation of being, God became something other than just a story, but a presence.

Science has still yet to come up with an explanation for why things are, just how they are, and until the why can be answered by science, God will always serve a function, even if that function is a representation of what isn't completely known. Even if the why is answered one day, the why will simply take the place for God, in which case God wouldn't be any less real, just called something else.

You can choose to call it God or not, but upon studying the history of philosophy you will realize that the tradition speaks of some necessary agent not out of the need for security, but for the need of rationality. Some aspects of life cannot be fully understood, and those aspects that cannot be fully understood is what the tradition has reconciled with the term God. It also goes by the name of Being for Heidegger, pre-established harmony for Leibniz, and the Logos for the Ancient Greeks. These are all different manifestations of the same simple concept, so don't get caught up on the word God simply because it carries with it radical fundamentalist connotations.

---------- Post added 03-30-2010 at 01:54 AM ----------

Pyrrho;145599 wrote:
"Athesim" is a word with two common meanings. One is derived from the etymology of the word, as the prefix "a-" means "not", so "atheism" is "not theism". A theist is someone who believes in a god or gods, so an atheist is someone who does not believe in a god or gods. This is an absence of belief, not having a belief that there is a god or gods. This is sometimes called "weak atheism" or "negative atheism".

The other common meaning of atheism involves the belief that there is no god. This is sometimes called "strong atheism" or "positive atheism".

Of people who are consistent, all strong atheists are also weak atheists, but not the reverse.

See:

Weak and strong atheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With "weak atheism", as it does not involve any belief, it cannot be an example of faith. With "strong atheism", it would be faith (i.e., belief without evidence) if you were correct that no evidence can be had one way or the other. I don't agree that no evidence can be had one way or the other, but if that were the case, all reasonable people would be weak atheists but not strong atheists. No reasonable person in such a case would be a theist.


What then would be the difference between "weak atheism" and agnosticism, or is there no difference?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 12:57 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;146011 wrote:
xris there are countless people who actively promote atheism and you simply cannot promote a non existent idea

Perhaps your idea goes something like this, "There is no such thing as cold only a lack of heat" or "there is no such thing as evil only a lack of goodness"


You called me Xris again. This is the second time you have done that. I wonder if I should be insulted or perhaps Xris should be insulted you keep calling me, him.

Cold is a definition based off a relative perspective of experience. I would say it is less heat but we usually don't talk in those terms. Just like today we understand that the Earth is spinning and it is the spin which gives the impression of the sun rising and setting. Even though we know this for a fact we still say, the sun rise, or the sun set. They really should be called spin toward and spin away (relative in context of sun light). We have never transitioned beyond this mode of thinking or communication.

As far as the promotion of atheism it has merit in the fact that many Christians and theists purposely try and spread false information. They try and teach non science and they wedge their way into politics and try to impose their will of their belief system onto everyone else. This creates activists who are atheistic, so they promote themselves as fighting against the threat of knowledge. The threat of knowledge are anyone who purposely spreads lies to protect their religious views. We know for a fact that this happens and there are many christian apologetics who are known to be fraudulent with their information.

I can show you another example since you are insistent upon this being a war of belief systems. For example I do not think humans are behind global climate change. I feel it is a complete lie and nothing other than a way to create a new form of taxation. Therefore I against global climate change propaganda. It is a non belief system. I simply believe there is global climate change, but it is not caused by humans. The earth cycles are just not understood enough to make the claim that humans are behind the temperature changes. In fact there is evidence to the contrary, like other planets in our solar system are also experiencing annual temperature increases. If global climate change was caused by humans then why is mars also experiencing temperature increases? I guess our pollution is more widespread than we thought.

Some will claim that religion is to suit a spiritual size of humanity. However; I see absolutely no characteristic within humanity that is called spirituality. As far as I am concerned it is a made up concept just like god. There is absolutely nothing that you can relatively pick out of a person to say they are spiritual or not. You would not even be able to tell even if you were talking to them. I can simply take a room full of people, talk to them and convince them I am a spiritual person, but it doesn't mean that I am a spiritual person.

Not to mention that the promotion of atheism is one of the promotion of secular society. Were people make choices based on humanity rather than some supposed ancient book. Maybe then people will stop bashing others for their sexual orientation or their life style. Maybe then people will stop hijacking planes to kill people. Or maybe then we won't need to worry about going into a night club and end up dead from a bombing. Or maybe then we can actually get back to teaching real science in the science class room without people crying they want creationism taught. Maybe then we might find that religion has been the cause behind many mental disorders and certain types of depressions. People who are constantly reminded that they are evil or wicked and deserve nothing but punishment tend to have lasting impacts on their psychology.

Maybe then we will wake up and realize that we are the makers of our own destiny and it is of our own efforts that we will succeed or fail. It is up to us to make the right choices and learn from our mistakes. We don't need any invisible friend to scare us into behaving.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 02:59 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;145497 wrote:
You never learn do you Alan?

When are you going to realize that atheism isn't a belief? It is simply just a lack of belief. You don't require anything for having no belief in something. Other wise you are insisting that I have faith that aliens are not abducting people. No. I simply don't believe aliens are abducting people.


Why is believe (religieus) superior to conviction on a basis of facts and thought ? I think U free to call it believe / conviction / overtuiging and it is not to US to Judge. zReligions grew away from Origins of Humanity. It's like they concentrate on expansion and survival by all means.

I believe people, even when they lie. I believe they will be thrutfull to the End. I do not want Pope, president our Monarch to tell me what to think. I read History & Cookingboox for Development. I could read Physics but don't like fellow students much. Confirmed prejudgement. Can change !

Yes US can do it ! May be flowers ?

Santa Maria
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:19 am
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;146063 wrote:
I do not want Pope, president our Monarch to tell me what to think.


The problem is there are millions who do want the pope to tell them what to think or how to behave. If they didn't he wouldn't be there. This is a problem and we know there are problems. Just like with the reoccurring sex abuse scandals that keep coming up. This time there is evidence to prove the pope purposely is trying to cover up these cases and dismiss them as nothing important to discuss. How is it a child being molested by a trusted bishop is considered pointless gossip? It is insulting to just write it off as if nothing happened and it is the fault of the people who talk about the problem. That it in no way is his problem. It is his problem and he fails to solve it rationally.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 06:36 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;146038 wrote:
You called me Xris again. This is the second time you have done that. I wonder if I should be insulted or perhaps Xris should be insulted you keep calling me, him.

Cold is a definition based off a relative perspective of experience. I would say it is less heat but we usually don't talk in those terms. Just like today we understand that the Earth is spinning and it is the spin which gives the impression of the sun rising and setting. Even though we know this for a fact we still say, the sun rise, or the sun set. They really should be called spin toward and spin away (relative in context of sun light). We have never transitioned beyond this mode of thinking or communication.

As far as the promotion of atheism it has merit in the fact that many Christians and theists purposely try and spread false information. They try and teach non science and they wedge their way into politics and try to impose their will of their belief system onto everyone else. This creates activists who are atheistic, so they promote themselves as fighting against the threat of knowledge. The threat of knowledge are anyone who purposely spreads lies to protect their religious views. We know for a fact that this happens and there are many christian apologetics who are known to be fraudulent with their information.

I can show you another example since you are insistent upon this being a war of belief systems. For example I do not think humans are behind global climate change. I feel it is a complete lie and nothing other than a way to create a new form of taxation. Therefore I against global climate change propaganda. It is a non belief system. I simply believe there is global climate change, but it is not caused by humans. The earth cycles are just not understood enough to make the claim that humans are behind the temperature changes. In fact there is evidence to the contrary, like other planets in our solar system are also experiencing annual temperature increases. If global climate change was caused by humans then why is mars also experiencing temperature increases? I guess our pollution is more widespread than we thought.

Some will claim that religion is to suit a spiritual size of humanity. However; I see absolutely no characteristic within humanity that is called spirituality. As far as I am concerned it is a made up concept just like god. There is absolutely nothing that you can relatively pick out of a person to say they are spiritual or not. You would not even be able to tell even if you were talking to them. I can simply take a room full of people, talk to them and convince them I am a spiritual person, but it doesn't mean that I am a spiritual person.

Not to mention that the promotion of atheism is one of the promotion of secular society. Were people make choices based on humanity rather than some supposed ancient book. Maybe then people will stop bashing others for their sexual orientation or their life style. Maybe then people will stop hijacking planes to kill people. Or maybe then we won't need to worry about going into a night club and end up dead from a bombing. Or maybe then we can actually get back to teaching real science in the science class room without people crying they want creationism taught. Maybe then we might find that religion has been the cause behind many mental disorders and certain types of depressions. People who are constantly reminded that they are evil or wicked and deserve nothing but punishment tend to have lasting impacts on their psychology.

Maybe then we will wake up and realize that we are the makers of our own destiny and it is of our own efforts that we will succeed or fail. It is up to us to make the right choices and learn from our mistakes. We don't need any invisible friend to scare us into behaving.


I am very sorry for mixing you and xis, but please don't be insulted because both you people are great contributors to this great forum of unique thinkers Smile
 
The Outsider
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 02:33 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I apologize for not reading the entire thread through, but I wanted to put in my two cents in regards to the original post and didn't have an hour to go through the whole thing.

It's a good argument, Alan... if you assume that the universe was created in order for us to live. Not that I mean to be derogatory, but it seems to me that an honest, simplified version of your entire argument would be, "It sure is a good thing that things have went the way they did, otherwise it wouldn't be like this."
 
 

 
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