My Take on God

@KaseiJin,

KaseiJin;104846 wrote:

While I am not convinced that you have considered xris' post quite as fully as cause could be said of the ends of that post, I'll let that work itself out.

Firstly, I will take to issue, again, the very word "God." Here, you are giving us a word that is synonymous with the word Jehovah (putting it most concisely, and in a slightly different from usual approach). I think it'd further your presentation much more to use the simple, common noun, 'god,' rather than the (actually) proper noun (a name) "God." (because then you'll be stuck to the Old Testament god-model)

Then, my take on god (not YHWH):
[INDENT]Everything that has happened in the history of this known universe, to the extent that we know of it with fair security (so leaving some things, such as before, or at, expansion time 1 second; exactly what lineage of animal both we and that which went towards the primate, was; and so on, aside) is god in action. There is not a thing which has has no mark made on it (a figure of speech, here) by god, and in that sense does not know of god (not saying all things 'know' in the anthropomorphic sense), although god knows not of all that does know of it.

Volition and concern, in the broadest terms of these, are within god, yet are most evidently the least of the essence of god. While evaluation is also most evidently one aspect of god, not all that is god evaluates, nor does all that is god admit to awareness or knowledge (in an anthropomorphic sense) of the means, purpose/reason of the evaluating process.

Most thinkably, god is, but that is all that can be said about god other than our present knowledge of god-workings, god-states, and so on--although we can always muse further. It is most clear, that god is not found in any concretely way as described of by the anthropocentric, anthropomorphic models of human creations, although, most ironically, all such endeavors are god-workings.

This forum is a god-workings result, as are the eyes in my head sockets. . . which have grown tired now, looking at all these god-workings on this page. . . going from my brain, all the way through half of my spinal column before rushing out through my arms, into my several fingers, into the keys, through the lines of translation and on the screen, then feeding back into my eyes again. Yes . . . god workings are in mysterious and wondrous ways !:a-ok:[/INDENT]

mere bhai,
i had no idea! somehow i had the impression you were a sort of agnostical atheistic realist...but i would say your take on god is about as esoteric as one can get. in fact, it is less cynical than mine...who could get mad at a god like that? i like it!

@IntoTheLight,

KJ - someone put mushrooms in your soup? Or what? :bigsmile:

@KaseiJin,

KaseiJin;105019 wrote:

To clarify, it appears that you have missed the heart of the issue. It is not to make a claim about some external thing, but simply the language that I am pointing to.

---SNIP---

Are you really taking me to task for capitalizing the G in "God"? Really?

I honestly appreciate your lengthy post on the matter and found it very interesting from a sociolinguistic standpoint. Yet....

I'm going to be honest with you and I really mean this with no intended offence: your post sounds extremely anal-rententive to me. I will be the first to admit that I am not a language or semantics purist; I accept a reasonably loose interpretation of language, colloquialisms, and such in common parlance. Being as specific as you are being, honestly, seems absurd and even obsessive to me.

I intend to use the word "God" with a capital 'G' in the rest of my posts from here on out. I did post a lengthy thread to characterize my personal take on what I consider God to be - to differentiate between the other conceptualizations. If you find that you personally can't stomach me using the word God <--- in this form, I suspose the only thing I can advise you is to not read my posts.

I understand youir point, but I simply don't agree with it and am not willing to alter the way that I communicate using this word.

--IntoTheLight--

---------- Post added 11-21-2009 at 10:02 PM ----------

Jeeprs, before I reply, let me say thank you for a really excellent and well-concieved post. I appreciate it very much.

jeeprs;105059 wrote:

And here, I think, lies the issue. Because what you call 'God' may or may not correspond to another's use of the term. So it is possible for you, as author of your own particular definition, to use the term in the way that suits you. Of course this means that nobody can really take exception with your definition insofar as you are able to interpret it or reveal further details of it, according to your own lights.

Ultimately, I think that is true for all of us who are theistic and/or believe in a spiritual component to reality. Unless one is making claims of absolute or universal truth (which I am clearly not), their own personal interpretation of spirituality is not really open to debate. For example, any experiences you have had in your spiritual practice are completely subjective to your interpretation of reality and there is no way that I or anyone else could challenge them on an objective basis simply because they are not objective, but subjective.

Quote:

You have already said that your use of the term God does not account for the 'origin of being' or 'the hereafter'. So that rules out a fairly large percentage of discussion of the traditional topics associated with God.

Basically true, but personally I think we intellectuals often get bogged down in advesarial and acrimonious debates about intangibles like these that can never concretely be proved or disproved. Having spent many years on both sides of the fence engaged in such discussions, I still have nothing to show for it so I choose not to speculate on it. It has become irrelevant to me - yet, there is still much that can be discussed that is often not or only in limited form because so many are wrangling about these other issues. Call it 'pragamatism' if you like. =)

Quote:

You kind of dismiss those areas with a 'well that is all speculative'. It may not be speculative to me. I might have had a vision of a deceased relative which I think makes it considerably less speculative. (I am presuming you are young:-)

And that's fine, and you're certainly welcome to engage in such discussions with others. I'm just making it clear what my position is on these matters to avoid wasting other people's time by trying to engage me in a discussion that I find irrelevant.

Quote:

So what, after all, is the point of your belief? Is it likely to benefit, or make any difference, to others?

It may make a difference to others - just as any post here may make a difference to others. If there is any point for objective debate inherent in my position I would say that it is this: Choosing a conceptualization of God is not inherently limited to that of traditional interpretation.

Quote:

Are you trying to start a religious movement or a school of philosophy?

Not at all. Just stating my personal position on the matter. If others wish to discuss it or share their personal position, I have and do encourage them to do so. I would not have posted in this particular base originally because, strictly speaking, what I believe is not religious in nature. However, most philosophy forums tend to generalize theism into "religious" categories so this base seemed most appropriate given the selection.

Quote:

I suppose, having stated this challenge, I should say something about my own approach to the matter.

I appreciate that. =)

Quote:

I too am religious, or at least spiritually inclined. Like many, Christian by birth, but my adopted practise is Buddhist. (I don't see a lot of conflict between the two, but suspect many Christians would.)

I don't see a conflict either; there are several spiritual / psychoethical similarities between the two, I think.

Quote:

I do sometimes get into discussion about God - but with some reticence. I try and be mindful of what an orthodox person would or wouldn't say in an argument. I guess I try and represent what I consider an orthodox position on God - I know enough about it to do that in most debates.

I can certainly understand that. Speaking of God (as evidenced by this thread and several others here) is a delicate matter in that we all have our own subjective interpretations and great care must be exercised to avoid ambiguities in semantics.

Quote:

I am rather more confident discussing aspects of Buddhist philosophy and how they might be applied to philosophical issues of various kinds. I have studied comparitive religion and am a member of the school which thinks most of the religions have some important truth.

That would be wonderful, actually. I would love to hear your perspective on applied Buddhist philosophy and have a discussion with you to that end. I have studied the Buddhism is a very general way and actually apply some principles used in Buddhism in my own spiritual beliefs. I can't use the proper names, admitedly, but I certainly have a great respect for this practice.

Quote:

So anyway - that is my reaction to 'your take' or version of the God. It seems quite positive, optimistic, upbeat, and not objectionable at all, but perhaps very much your own.

Thank you, Sir (or Ma'am) for saying so; I appreciate that very much. My philosophy on this matter certainly is highly subjective and relative to me as an individual, but there are others to who I've met who share many of the same basic tenants of my spiritual practice.

I look forward to future discussion with you. It is an honor to know you.

--IntoTheLight--

@IntoTheLight,

Well, no argument from me in any of that. I think what is happening, especially now, with all of the information that is available and the massive changes that are going on in the world and in consciousness, is that we - those of us interested in learning about this matter - are finding elements here, pieces there, and through a lot of contemplation and work and trying them out, incorporating them into our own 'vehicle'. The recent Karen Armstrong book, The Case for God, talks about the idea of 'bricolage', taking various materials and putting together what works - and this was in the context of the early Judaic communities, millenia ago. It is similar to a scholarly approach, but different, in that these ideas become 'internalised', you actually incorporate the principles. The only concern I have is to do it properly. Many of these ideas were set in motion with a particular and very specific intent, so I wish to honour the intent. That is all. But I think we are pretty much on the same page, and many thanks for your reply.

@IntoTheLight,

First, thank you for sharing. This is one post it has been a pleasure to parse as you and I, as it has been known to have been said, are on the same wave-length. Perhaps a bit of fine tuning may be in order, but, by and large, we do see "I" to "I" and perhaps one day "eye" to "eye".

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Greetings to all...

Ditto

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe in what I call "God", but my view does not correspond to any particular religion, nor am I a member of any religion.

Welcome to the middle of the road, for most just don't stand there; too much traffic and they are so afraid they may get run over, ha! So they stand on one side of the other. Again, welcome, I can use the company.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

First off, I use the word "God" for ease in communications, but the word, in itself, is a bit misleading. I don't conceptualize God as being male or female, nor having any physical traits in common with humanity.

Some are not satisfied with that. Nope! They are looking for some "body", this God guy. You know the one who sits on a throne and rules everything. It seems they are not satisfied with the way he is doing things. They just can't understand it. Humph!!

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Physically, I believe God is a non-corporeal energy entity exists in our present reality in a quantum state. It would be safe to say that I think God or God's mind is 'everywhere' in our physical universe; omnipresent.

Quantum state, huh? You said a mouthful then. Gets kinda confusing when one attempts tie a neat ribbon around "IT ALL". Einstein and Bohr really started something there, among others. It rang Bell's bell. Ha! Those guys created a dilemma they are still grappling with today. Almost forgot there was this guy Rosen who was involved in that too. Oh, well live and learn as they say. But there is this little snag in it all, we die, huh? Yep, can't figure that one out, but we die trying. One of these days we will come to our senses on that one. I wonder how long it will take before all finally see the "light".

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Emotionally, I believe God is benevolent and altruistic toward Humanity. I do not believe God is angry, vengeful, stern, or resentful. I believe that God genuinely cares about Humanity and wants to to be happy.

You know ITL, that's not what "the book" says and EVERYTHING is suppose to go by the book. I've heard that somewhere before. Guttenberg really started something there too. Too many editors involve there for me. I think you are right about the fact that God genuinely cares. I really do. You know we do seem to get along better when all are happy and content. But that has never happened. Well, not yet anyway, but we do have our days don't we. If we could only make those "happy days" last just a little be longer, huh?

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe God has a "hands-off" approach to humanity, similar to Deism, though not the same thing.

Wow! Are you going to confuse a lot of people with that one. "Hands off". Does God have hands? Sure he does; their at the ends of "our arms". People will get confused with that one too. You see God has paws and hooves too and we are still trying to figure that one out. Some even had thumbs on their feet, too. God, this can get complicated? Ha!

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe that this is our world to do with as we will.

Uh oh! Man is that a topic for another thread. Talk about starting an argument, whew! "Will"; there's a bunch of stuff involved there and if if it is free or not. I think if all were allowed, all would me more that all to willing to participate in that endeavor. But there are costs you know. What a pity. It seems to me will has a price on it's head; and many just can seem to afford to go there. Well, so much for it being free. Nice gesture though. Humph!!!

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I don't think that God favors any nation, race, people, or religion, nor that God is going to physically intervene to stop things from happening.

You'll have a hard time convincing some countries of that. You know that country that has as it's motto IN GOD WE TRUST. Hmmm, yeah and all others pay cash. That just seems to have come to be some kind of joke. Again, sounds good, doesn't it. Damn! Just who is the God guy?

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe God may (key word) nudge things a tiny little bit from time to time, but I think for the most part God allows humanity's world to exist on it's own.

Yeah, I agree and he does. All the time. It's just too many are so concerned with themselves to notice. You know, that EGO thing and all. As you, I notice his "handy" work all the time, everyday as a matter of a fact; but try and explaining that to others. No easy task, I can assure you. Again, thanks for being here. I feel I have made some progress though, but not so much that I can't use a little help.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Many theists say, "Everything happens for a reason" with the implication that all events happen because God either wills them to occur or personally sanctions their occurrence. -- Not only do I disagree, but I also find this sort of fatalism disturbing and, if I may be so bold, quite mindless. Most people who espouse this belief have rarely thought it all the way through. It's sort of a mantra that people repeat without actually thinking about.

Damn, I wish I had sad that, ha! But I am so very glad you did. If I might elaborate a little, if you don't mind. There is a reason to it all but most are so caught up in it they can't or won't see the forest for the trees. Too complicated as indicated by some of the above. Many think we "have control" and we don't, not by any stretch of the imagination but we think we do. There is something missing; a link or something like that. Our thinking we can control everything is the problem as I see it. (See list). You are new and I know you might be asking "What List". If you wish, I will dig it up and offer it for your observation. It's around her somewhere. If you examine my post in response to "Do I believe in God" you will find it there, I am sure of that for it is there. I would like to hear what you think of what I have offered there, if you don't mind.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe that God manifests in different ways and often speaks through different people. While I definitely do not thing that all religions are the same or have the same basic goals, I do think that God has spoken through many different religious and philosophical persons throughout the history of the world. I believe that God can speak through anybody, actually, including atheists.

Brilliant and bravo! Well said. One also has to take into consideration this thing we have called "free speech". Even those dead philosophers we scrutinized by the mortal gods of those times just as we are judged today. You really have to be careful in what you say and the words you use and how you use them. They can get you in a heap of trouble. Free speech? It sounds good, huh? Yes, ITL, God does speak through people and sad to say many have, so it is written, become martyrs. One in particular amongst others I could name that has caused much controversy. Let's not get into that now. We could be here all day and then some on that one. I will just say one can't listen for God's words, but if one is in tune, one will "hear" him when He does. I know that from my "personal" experience with Him as I have often said; "he is a friend of mine" and I can't imagine a better one.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Going back to the "hands-off" thing, I think that God has this policy in order to allow Humanity to have free will. I'm sure we could have a whole discussion about that.

Yeah, I agree; but I think I hinted on those limitations imposed on us as to why those discussions are not taking place. We are getting there. This reality can use a lot of improvement and perhaps it is time for a new one. I think we are on the brink of that. I hope so. We will have to wait to see what tomorrow will bring and I always do and eagerly anticipate it's arrival. Many have a hard time crawling out of bed, ha!

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe that God plays the role of a spiritual teacher who can help us if we choose to ask for that help.

You know, ITL, I think it truly depends on what it is one is asking for that matters. I think most just don't want to be afraid anymore and asking for that which that think will bring happiness into their lives. So many just don't know what "that" is? If they were truly free and unafraid those prayers would be answered in ways they could not imagine as they would then not have to ask for anything as it would be provided for them.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe anybody can ask God for help, but there are two caviats: 1) The request must be genuine and humble, 2) One must be willing to do the work involved. Moreover, asking God for "help" is just that - help, not fixing all your problems, making you rich or powerful or popular, or making something you want happen.

Most of what you say here, I agree but it would be tedious to go into all the details that are involve here, so I won't only to respond to what "work" is. Work can be laborsome and for many it is. Much more so than those rewards they receive for the work they do. I contend all have something to offer that can be considered work as they participate in what life has to offer them. I think that is innate in all of us, yet some do take advantage of that and hold at bay those entitlements all should receive to force such laborsome duties. Those who control those who are force to work, never break a sweat or at least one from physical labor. Yet they do sweat; no doubt about it. That's fodder for another post and I won't get into where that sweat comes from now.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

I believe requests for God's help and guidance must be generally selfless in nature, except in the case of requests for personal spiritual strength.

I agree, but you are going to have a rough time explaining what "spiritual strength" is to many. What does spiritual mean? Hmmm?
Let's just put that one on the back burner now for the time being.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Things I have no idea about:

1) If God created existence, the world, humanity, etc.
(Nor do I care. I exist; how I came to exist is irrelevent to me.)reality.)

ITL, there are three words I never use in my life: I DON'T CARE! Never. Perhaps I have said them in anger before, but I cannot recall them and if I did, I will wish that I have never used them in any context. Had you said "does not concern me", I would have agreed more as to the above statement you made, heartily.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

2) If there is some sort of "afterlife".
(Nor do I care. I exist now and am concerned with this reality.)

Afterlife? Just what is that, precisely? Should all just ignore it because we don't know what it means? Perhaps it is all "just life"; no after? We just don't know what death is? That could be it, huh? What if death is just a part of life, no end. Sincerely, as my signature iterates, if all were not so concerned with death, their life would be so much better. I know. That is how I live my life. Death has never been a concern to me. Never! I thought I was close a couple of times and even then, it was little concern. If others mourn my death, that is a personal problem they have to deal with. I don't concern myself on thinking about losing those close to me and will concern myself with that when that time comes, and not before. Most seem to have a difficult time doing that. There is no future and no one has a crystal ball for once we step into the future, it becomes the now ever so briefly and into the past it goes. I concern myself with the now and focus on that. That is enough for me and comforts me. If I am not mistaken you are living this way too, though you have never expressed it as I did.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

Since I have come to have a relationship with God, my life has changed dramatically for the better. However, it's also gotten more difficult too because now I choose to consider what God would have me do in situation instead of just doing whatever I want to do. Still, I find it very gratifying. God has helped me and continues to help me in every aspect of my life.

There is nothing like having a relationship with God and all that entails and what all that does entail as for some do witness it; glimpses of it and are indeed blessed in that respect of one to the other. When that happens is what I call the rapture as one begins to witness the "oneness" of it ALL.

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

This is my extended take on what God is I'm open to all feedback and question, however, let me stress that I am not here to try to "convert" anybody; my beliefs are my own.
--IntoTheLight-

Well, you have mine. I hope you gathered something from it that will enhance your take.

William

@William,

Im so glad so many have found their salvation but not one of you have volunteered to be examined. I stand my ground, every one of you have nothing of substance, only faith. There is nothing new in any of your claims, none will stand scrutiny. I can understand a certain view that we have certain evidence that signifies a creative force but to name it, is beyond logic.

@IntoTheLight,

I will 'volunteer to be examined' (although I don't claim to be 'saved'.)

Ask away.

@IntoTheLight,

I think probably everyone has a unique notion of "god" based on their own personal experiences. We are all unique unrepeatable creations that is marveously enough how life and the universe work. If god had wanted us all to be the same or to all have the same religion perhaps he could have made it so but I think the divine enjoys diversity, novelty and creativity.

For me
God is the reason why
The universe is rationally intelligible.
The universe is capable of supporting intelligent life.
There is order instead of chaos.
Why the universe proceeds from order to complexity, to life, to mind, to experience and on to value.

God is the source of all possibility, the ground of being, and the essence of existence.
The earth is not the center of the universe and man is not the crown of creation and all theologies based on these ancient erroneous assumptions are in error.
The heavens are not composed of perfect spheres in perfect orbits and Greek theological notions of divine perfection (immutability, impassibility, omnipotence, omniscience) are also based on a misperception of the nature of the universe.
The universe is engaged in a continuous process of creative advance.
God works through nature and natural process.

The universe is an emanation of spirit a material manifestation of divine possibility.
All religions are human products; god transcends human knowledge but is immanent within the world. God is found in the tender elements of the world, struggling and suffering to bring possibility (primordial being) into actuality (consequent being).

God is persuasive but not coercive. The universe responds to the divine call for the creation of novelty and value against the forces of chaos and destruction. It is a world in which there is real risk, real reward and real freedom but not without struggle and suffering. God is your fellow traveler who presents you with meaningful possibility but god is not some divine tyrant or ruler and everything that happens is not part of the divine will or the divine plan.

@IntoTheLight,

xris;105154 wrote:

Im so glad so many have found their salvation.....

Who was lost? Or better, who is lost? How do they get lost? Are you lost? If not, then that is what matters, huh!

xris;105154 wrote:

.....but not one of you have volunteered to be examined.

Examine away! I doubt you will be satisfied for that you hear or learn from that inspection. You see Xris people can rationalization anything they wish, to satisfy their own curiosity; nothing more and thrive on argument. It gives them power somehow and winning is all that matters. Me, for one, get so tired of such bickering and tire of it more and more each and every time I witness it occurring.

xris;105154 wrote:

I stand my ground, every one of you have nothing of substance, only faith.

Ha, forgive me for LOL, you say substance. Does that mean something you can put your hands on? God, if I could do that, I would bottle it and make a fortune. It would truly be the elixir of life. Faith doesn't come that easy for those who say they don't have it. There are reasons why that is so and it, more often than not, is for them and them alone to acquire it. If you would just leave that door open and be receptive to it, it will happen one day; I can assure you of that and it has absolutely nothing to do with religion, yet has EVERYTHING to do with life. Once you have it, then you can just forget about it and enjoy the life that faith offers you. It is just that simple.

xris;105154 wrote:

There is nothing new in any of your claims, none will stand scrutiny.

Speaking of scrutiny, I have viewed your personal profile and it took all of a fraction of a second as I learned all you have to say of yourself is that you are from Cornwall, England. Not that it matters any, I just thought I would mention it.

xris;105154 wrote:

I can understand a certain view that we have certain evidence that signifies a creative force but to name it, is beyond logic.

Is that some call that creative force God; is that what matters to you? What is creation? What is logic? Can you create a left from scratch? Well something did or at the very least that leaf came from something else, we just can put our fingers on it. As far a logic, I have seen some logical assumptions based on past performances, and in all sincerity our logic is a bit skewed for we do not know all there is to know to make any assumption as to who God is. We just are not that smart, though many who think they are. Sad.

Xris, one cannot go looking for faith, it just happens to those who are humble and are receptive to it by admitting they don't know everything. Yes, it is what one might call a "surrender" and once one has done that, they will be surprisingly thrilled at losing that battle they wage on those who do stand their ground and maintain their faith in whatever it may be. Call it purple unicorns if you want. It doesn't matter the least bit. It means not having to fear and that takes a bravado many just cannot muster.

William

@IntoTheLight,

IntotheLight

I concur with much of what you state, it is obvious that god is hands off or we would just be his obedient robots.I believe that gods prime attribute is love. I do , however, believe God is the intelligent source of all existence

The chapter below is my understanding and I wrote the essay as if I were God. This is a small excerpt of my writing around this topic. Like you I do not prescribe to any God of religion

God speaking about creation and existence, just included for those interested in philosophy about how everything came to be.

Aware of infinite potential in vast unploughed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of cosmic light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence before the timeless moment of creation. I am the boundless Mind, Original Self-Awareness the cause of everything, relative to nothing I am "This".

On the panorama of bleak blackness, I AM "The Absolute", sowing universal energy. Reality was my aim and the beauty of my achievement. Illuminating the darkness with beams of dazzling radiant glory was the first event of reason. I formulated in my mind the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",

With the simplicities and realities of the fundamentals of' "one, and 'zero", "I made everything". I am the Prime Mover and there was no proponent to my "First Cause". I am the "Immovable Rock" and the" Alpha point". I took these first numbers and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam of nothing, which now makes all up existence. Indeed, I am the Almighty One. If you are, wise, respect me because I am the Lord of Life

I am the creator of the totality of all existence known by many names and titles but you must all refer to be by the title that can never be confused by anyone. Call me The "Almighty One".

I AM the Ceaseless Creator of all things

"I am life"

By Alan McDougall 1992 to 2009

@prothero,

prothero;105282 wrote:

I think.... If god had wanted us all to be the same or to all have the same religion perhaps he could have made it so but I think the divine enjoys diversity, novelty and creativity.

Thank you prothero for offering this. What you say here is the problem. "If God wanted........". We are the ones that "want". There is no evidence anywhere to establish a fact that God wants anything. It is in that separation we feel we are "from" God that is of a concern here. If God wanted anything, he would surely achieve it regardless of anything we think and would control us to his liking. If he were so judgemental he would have "ended us" long ago. Perhaps there is something to "God's Debris" and he is putting himself back together again. If it is so, then it is reasonable to conclude that even God will be the better for it and he needs US to do that. Just like it can also be concluded as to that matter in what we know as death and are reborn better than we were before.

Something to consider.

William

@William,

If those who believe can or could ever give me an answer that is logical rather than built on assumptions or imagined reasoning then the bickering would cease to occur. Claim after claim is made but when questioned the image changes the description becomes vague. It does not matter what god, vague or defined, it does not tolerate investigation.

I hear silly things said like, "god helped me avoid getting a police ticket" but at the same time a child was murdered or" I experienced a presence in my life" but at the same time a genocide was occurring in Africa. This blinkered self interested naivety about god on occasions does give rise to anger in me. I apologise for the anger but not the motives that inspired it. You must stop seeing this god as a personal saviour, a motive for your life but what he is for all mankind.

@xris,

xris;105570 wrote:

You must stop seeing this god as a personal saviour, a motive for your life but what he is for all mankind.

And what is that?

@xris,

xris;105570 wrote:

If those who believe can or could ever give me an answer that is logical rather than built on assumptions or imagined reasoning then the bickering would cease to occur. Claim after claim is made but when questioned the image changes the description becomes vague. It does not matter what god, vague or defined, it does not tolerate investigation.

I hear silly things said like, "god helped me avoid getting a police ticket" but at the same time a child was murdered or" I experienced a presence in my life" but at the same time a genocide was occurring in Africa. This blinkered self interested naivety about god on occasions does give rise to anger in me. I apologise for the anger but not the motives that inspired it. You must stop seeing this god as a personal saviour, a motive for your life but what he is for all mankind.

Thee is a point of view that the earth is a fallen society thus our depravity has separated us from God, even rich people can suffer unimaginably Suffering is not retracted to the poor

There is a vacuum in humans that only god can fill

@Caroline,

Caroline;105577 wrote:

And what is that?

I have no idea as a non believer Caroline, but those who suppose should look there first and maybe he would disappear.

---------- Post added 11-24-2009 at 07:07 AM ----------

Alan McDougall;105579 wrote:

Thee is a point of view that the earth is a fallen society thus our depravity has separated us from God, even rich people can suffer unimaginably Suffering is not retracted to the poor

There is a vacuum in humans that only god can fill

There is no vacuum for me Alan, an investigative urge but no vacuum. So the rich suffer do they? is that on purpose their suffering? Is that gods purpose for us to suffer? A child lying in gutter starving to death is gods purpose? Can you not see how I get angry with this attitude?

Where did this new idea of a fallen society come from, is it another reason for our suffering?

@IntoTheLight,

Good post and position Light, very nice of you to share your personal conception with all of us; makes for a great thread opener.

Your concept and view seems relatively consistent and productive - I like it. I only have one question/clarification which; if you don't feel like sharing, I'll not blame you a bit (since it might be a very personal thing):

IntoTheLight;104807 wrote:

...Physically, I believe God is a non-corporeal energy entity exists in our present reality in a quantum state...

What I'm wondering is: What your personal basis, foundation or rationale is for your definition? Have you had an experience? Or perhaps a combination of support-types that lead you to this belief?

Again, thank you for sharing. It's very popular to believe in god yet have no thought of what-it-is. It's quite refreshing to see someone go out on a line and lay it out for others to discuss. Kudos

Thanks

@Khethil,

Khethil;105586 wrote:

Good post and position Light, very nice of you to share your personal conception with all of us; makes for a great thread opener.

Thank you for your kind words.

Quote:

What I'm wondering is: What your personal basis, foundation or rationale is for your definition? Have you had an experience? Or perhaps a combination of support-types that lead you to this belief?

I appreciate your empathy; however my explanation is not personal - it's actually quite general.

I use those terms to describe God simply because they are the best way I can explain the physicality of God as I understand God.

To use an analogy: Imagine if someone gave you a pound of clay and said, "Create a sculpture of God". The clay, here, is the language I use to describe my conception of God in a physical sense; merely language to give some sense of description to that which I cannot describe.

Quote:

Again, thank you for sharing. It's very popular to believe in god yet have no thought of what-it-is. It's quite refreshing to see someone go out on a line and lay it out for others to discuss. Kudos
Thanks

Right on. =)

-ITL-

@IntoTheLight,

@babyblu129,

Are you here to preach or debate? You have i hope read my objections to belief in this proposed benevolent god? Why do you not question my statements instead of rambling on as if nothing has been debated.

Why do you assume those who oppose your views have never owned or read the bible? Is your god a benevolent or malevolent? Come on debate, please dont hide behind faith driven rhetoric.

@IntoTheLight,

well i actually read and responded to IntoTheLight's entry, no one else's

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